2014 Rotation

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    2014 Rotation

    I was just musing this afternoon, as we continue to watch Doubront seemingly come into his own...

    In addition to Doubie (who will be 26 in October), the Red Sox will have a trio of veterans under contract in 2014 in Lackey, Peavy, and Dempster, along with a hopefully healthy Buchholz. Lester, of course, has a $13 million option. On the prospect side, Webster will have a full season in Triple-A under his belt, with Ranaudo possibly knocking on the door at some point. Let's presume that Workman and Britton stay in the bullpen...possibly De La Rosa as well.

    Yes, I'm sure this will resolve itself, as these things tend to do...but on the face of it, we appear to have a starting pitching surplus heading into next season. I shudder to say that (Bronson Arroyo, anyone?), but let's play the intellectual exercise anyway.

    Do the signs point towards Lester's option being declined? Even with his struggles, $13 million is not bad value (consider what we're paying Dempster, for example)...sure, that money could be used elsewhere, but this winter's free agent class looks pretty lame. 

    If Lester is retained, do you consider moving someone to the bullpen? Get creative and trade someone for a bat or a closer? 

    What say you?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from NegativeTrollsAbound. Show NegativeTrollsAbound's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Pick up option, offer him and others for a netter starter.  Too many innings.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    I pick Lesters option up. Hes made improvements from last year and Id give him through 2014 to see if the transition and adjustments hes made solidify him as a solid 2-3 starter. I dont see him as an Ace type or a #1 anymore, but with his age and specific situation I like him better than Dempster for the price.

    Lackey has an interesting situation. Over the next 2 years he is owed about 16M due to his league minimum clause for the existing elbow injury. He also has a .5M trade bonus, so all in all hes at about 16.5M through 2015. Now, he would be very attractive to a lot of teams, especially if he continues to pitch well at that price.

    Dempster would be good for a young rotation in need of some veteran leadership on a 1yr deal and could eat up innings for a team. My guess is some money would have to be taken on by the Sox.

    I absolutely keep Buchholz, Lester and Doubront and consider trading one of the other 2.

    Now of course this always depends on what a team is willing to offer in return in regards to any of our starters, but as it sits right now this is how I see it.

    I like Workman as a starter next year in Boston. Id also consider Steven Wright in a starters role in Boston, with Webster and Ranaudo in AAA.  Barnes could be promoted to AAA next year and depending on how Owens does, he could be called up by the end of 2014 as well. I honestly see RDLR and Britton in the pen in the long run, but I think they will give Britton some more time as a starter before making that move.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    I have a feeeling the Sox will deal a pitcher for a position of need (1B?  Catcher?)  The guy to go might be Lackey, whose contract becomes remarkably favorable afer this year.

     

     

    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me. Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.”

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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    I pick Lesters option up. Hes made improvements from last year and Id give him through 2014 to see if the transition and adjustments hes made solidify him as a solid 2-3 starter. I dont see him as an Ace type or a #1 anymore, but with his age and specific situation I like him better than Dempster for the price.

    Lackey has an interesting situation. Over the next 2 years he is owed about 16M due to his league minimum clause for the existing elbow injury. He also has a .5M trade bonus, so all in all hes at about 16.5M through 2015. Now, he would be very attractive to a lot of teams, especially if he continues to pitch well at that price.

    Dempster would be good for a young rotation in need of some veteran leadership on a 1yr deal and could eat up innings for a team. My guess is some money would have to be taken on by the Sox.

    I absolutely keep Buchholz, Lester and Doubront and consider trading one of the other 2.

    Now of course this always depends on what a team is willing to offer in return in regards to any of our starters, but as it sits right now this is how I see it.

    I like Workman as a starter next year in Boston. Id also consider Steven Wright in a starters role in Boston, with Webster and Ranaudo in AAA.  Barnes could be promoted to AAA next year and depending on how Owens does, he could be called up by the end of 2014 as well. I honestly see RDLR and Britton in the pen in the long run, but I think they will give Britton some more time as a starter before making that move.



    Lackey is pitching better than Lester and with a better attitude.  Sox should have traded Lester for Myers if they had the chance.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    the sox are definitely going to pick up Lesters option. Even if they don't plan on him being a part of the 2014 rotation (i believe they do) then they still will pick it up and trade him. My guess is that Dempster is the odd man out and is traded in the offseason. I see our 2014 rotation as this:

    Buch, Lackey, Doobie, Lester, Peavy.

    If any of our prospects force their way into the rotation then i think out of those 5 Lackey or Lester would be up for trade.

    Some say a storm is coming, Some say the end is near.

    Some think it's all so hazy, I think it's all so clear.

    Some say they have the answers, some say they know the truth.

    Some people live in question, some people have no clue.

    If there was no tomorrow, if there was just today.

    would you make different choices? or would you stay the same?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    I think we take Lester's option and don't trade any starters this winter.  Too many injuries and unforeseen setbacks. 

    If anyone is dealt, I think it would be Lester or Dempster. Perhaps, we pay some of his contract, but get something good in return.

    Here's how I rate our 2014 starters as of now:

    1) Buchholz

    2) Peavy

    3) Doubront

    4) Lackey

    5) Lester

    6) Dempster

    7) Morales

    8) Workman (pen?)

    9) Britton (pen?)

    10) Webster

    Others: Ranaudo/Wright/ de la Rosa (pen?)/Owens (2015?)/Barnes (2015?)

    Sox4ever

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Baseball is more and more becoming a young man's game. The crackdown on P.E.D. s and amphetamines could have something to do with it.  The Sox should push their young players, and continue to develop their farm system, with emphasis on the foreign market. They can have a good , young , low - cost team that would enable them to spend more money on the top players. I have to think that we have a few young pitchers right now who would be more effective than a guy like Dempster. And , at a much lower cost.

    Stabbed by Foulke

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Baseball is more and more becoming a young man's game. The crackdown on P.E.D. s and amphetamines could have something to do with it.  The Sox should push their young players, and continue to develop their farm system, with emphasis on the foreign market. They can have a good , young , low - cost team that would enable them to spend more money on the top players. I have to think that we have a few young pitchers right now who would be more effective than a guy like Dempster. And , at a much lower cost.

    Stabbed by Foulke



    Agreed.

    I disagreed with the signing amount and second year on day one.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to splendidsplinterteddyballgame's comment:

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    I pick Lesters option up. Hes made improvements from last year and Id give him through 2014 to see if the transition and adjustments hes made solidify him as a solid 2-3 starter. I dont see him as an Ace type or a #1 anymore, but with his age and specific situation I like him better than Dempster for the price.

    Lackey has an interesting situation. Over the next 2 years he is owed about 16M due to his league minimum clause for the existing elbow injury. He also has a .5M trade bonus, so all in all hes at about 16.5M through 2015. Now, he would be very attractive to a lot of teams, especially if he continues to pitch well at that price.

    Dempster would be good for a young rotation in need of some veteran leadership on a 1yr deal and could eat up innings for a team. My guess is some money would have to be taken on by the Sox.

    I absolutely keep Buchholz, Lester and Doubront and consider trading one of the other 2.

    Now of course this always depends on what a team is willing to offer in return in regards to any of our starters, but as it sits right now this is how I see it.

    I like Workman as a starter next year in Boston. Id also consider Steven Wright in a starters role in Boston, with Webster and Ranaudo in AAA.  Barnes could be promoted to AAA next year and depending on how Owens does, he could be called up by the end of 2014 as well. I honestly see RDLR and Britton in the pen in the long run, but I think they will give Britton some more time as a starter before making that move.

     



    Lackey is pitching better than Lester and with a better attitude.  Sox should have traded Lester for Myers if they had the chance.

     



    I dont see anything wrong with Lesters attitude. Frustrated maybe? Hes been working hard to make a lot of adjustments to his game. Unless you could show me, and everyone here something that says otherwise, its just your opinion with nothing to back it up.

    See the problem is, some of you guys just THINK he has a bad attitude, then act as if your GUESS is the truth. Thats is, unless your around him all the time. Are you?

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from fl+adam,. Show fl+adam,'s posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Lester's fate is tied to how he pitches the rest of the year.  If there is improvement...picking up the option is a no brainer.  If he gets worse then it is equally a no brainer to not pick it up.  The problem is the status-quo.  That is much tougher.  I guess you have to pick it up based on history, but that history is in the growingly distant past.  Lets hope he turns it around this year, so we get the benefit this year, and the have great depth next year.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    I was just musing this afternoon, as we continue to watch Doubront seemingly come into his own...

    In addition to Doubie (who will be 26 in October), the Red Sox will have a trio of veterans under contract in 2014 in Lackey, Peavy, and Dempster, along with a hopefully healthy Buchholz. Lester, of course, has a $13 million option. On the prospect side, Webster will have a full season in Triple-A under his belt, with Ranaudo possibly knocking on the door at some point. Let's presume that Workman and Britton stay in the bullpen...possibly De La Rosa as well.

    Yes, I'm sure this will resolve itself, as these things tend to do...but on the face of it, we appear to have a starting pitching surplus heading into next season. I shudder to say that (Bronson Arroyo, anyone?), but let's play the intellectual exercise anyway.

    Do the signs point towards Lester's option being declined? Even with his struggles, $13 million is not bad value (consider what we're paying Dempster, for example)...sure, that money could be used elsewhere, but this winter's free agent class looks pretty lame. 

    If Lester is retained, do you consider moving someone to the bullpen? Get creative and trade someone for a bat or a closer? 

    What say you?



    Does anyone think we could get anything for Lester and Buch.  The drama twins........

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Britton and Workman might have a real good chance of breaking camp next year with the team; but I'm pretty sure it will be in the pen.  Next year however, the Pawtucket rotation might consist of mostly all top prospects who could step in on a moments notice....and 1 or 2 of them might even stick as MLb starter by years end.  Guys like; RDLR, Webster, Barnes and Ranaudo. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Re. Lester's Option:

    It's a reasonable price--sign him and trade him that avoids the trade now where the option is waived. Someone will want a Lefty starter and pick up the draft pick.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Lester will be facing a tough KC team, they've been hot.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from craig2174. Show craig2174's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Buchholz

    Peavy

    Doubront

    Workman 

    Lester

    trade Lackey and dempster to the pen or traded

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

    Lester's fate is tied to how he pitches the rest of the year.  If there is improvement...picking up the option is a no brainer.  If he gets worse then it is equally a no brainer to not pick it up.  The problem is the status-quo.  That is much tougher.  I guess you have to pick it up based on history, but that history is in the growingly distant past.  Lets hope he turns it around this year, so we get the benefit this year, and the have great depth next year.




    Agreed. Let's see how he does the rest of the year. The issue is the 2-year deal they gave Dempster. He's an albatross for next year.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from tomnev. Show tomnev's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation


    I think the Sox  will definitely pick up Lesters Option......you can never have too much pitching, which Is why I dont see any off season trades either....there isnt one guy in the rotation, of Lackey, Peavy, Buch, Lester, Dempster, or even Doubie who you can count on to be healthy for a full year.....trades may happen in the spring if one of the young guys force themselves onto the team in the rotation.....at that point, since the young guys cost you minimums you can eat Salary to move one of the vets and get decent return.....I find the rest of this year even more interesting.....even if Buch doesnt come back, hard not to keep giving Workman starts until he struggles....and what if Wright impresses again tomorrow?....Feels funny for an Long Term Sox fan to be concerned about the Sox having so many pitchers....but it is a good place to be

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to ADG's comment:

    In response to fl+adam,'s comment:

     

    Lester's fate is tied to how he pitches the rest of the year.  If there is improvement...picking up the option is a no brainer.  If he gets worse then it is equally a no brainer to not pick it up.  The problem is the status-quo.  That is much tougher.  I guess you have to pick it up based on history, but that history is in the growingly distant past.  Lets hope he turns it around this year, so we get the benefit this year, and the have great depth next year.

     




    Agreed. Let's see how he does the rest of the year. The issue is the 2-year deal they gave Dempster. He's an albatross for next year.

     




    The Sox have less than 105M committed next year. They will have over 80M to sepend on arb cases and FA. Have to disagree with you ADG on the albatross. I do think there could be a trade this offseason though.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    I figured after the arbs, we'll have to spend about $32M with Lester and $44M without.

    Slots to fill:

    CF  (JBJ or Victorino?)

    C  (Lava, Ross, Vazquez?)

    1B (Carp, Nava, Papi?)

    3B (Boggy, Middy, Holt, Cecchini?)

    SS (Boggy?)

    RP (Workman, Britton, DLR?)

    Sox4ever

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    Lester is a good pitcher, but by watching him to pitched against Arizona, he threw way too many change up pitches.  He got to trust his fastball more often especially to try to pitch the outer part of the plate.

    Right now Lester doesnt have the confidence as well his mentally isnt strong anymore!!

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    Lester is a good pitcher, but by watching him to pitched against Arizona, he threw way too many change up pitches.  He got to trust his fastball more often especially to try to pitch the outer part of the plate.

    Right now Lester doesnt have the confidence as well his mentally isnt strong anymore!!

     




    His change up has been working great for him and if you look at his pitch charts, hes thrown his FB and CU more in July which led to a successful month for him. he was leaving everything up the other day. Didnt matter what pitch.

    Going through this transition and adjustments is never easy on a pitcher like lester. Id say hes more frustrated than anything, and for good reason. I still believe hes young enough and good enough to turn things around. I would make 2014 a make or break season for Lester, but no way I give up on him. farrell and Nieves have made a difference this year and I think he can turn out to still be a good 2-3 in the rotation.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from CubanPete. Show CubanPete's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to ADG's comment:

     

     

    Agreed. Let's see how he does the rest of the year. The issue is the 2-year deal they gave Dempster. He's an albatross for next year.

     

     



    An albatross refers to a player who has so greatly underperformed in the midst of a lucrative multi-year contract, that he becomes a bad asset which no team wants. Examples of recent albatrosses:

    Barry Zito

    Alex Rodriguez

    Mark Teixeira

    CC Sabathia

    Dempster is having a down year, but he's an innings eater and can still miss bats (K% is better than career norm). For only one year of commitment, he will draw interest from some national league teams.

    Here are the reasons Dempster sucks right now and why his spot on the postseason roster is in jeopardy (Fangraphs)...

    • FB% highest since 2001
    • GB% lowest since 2001
    • HR/FB Ratio highest since 2001 (14.1%)
    • BB% highest since 2005
    • tERA highest since 2003 (5.31)
    • FIP highest since 2003 (4.87)

    Since he was traded to the Rangers a year ago, his record in the AL is:

    • W-L 13-11
    • IP 196
    • HR 31
    • ERA 4.73
    • BB/SO 86/188
    • WHIP 1.47

    The Sox will likely have to eat some of his salary but based on the results of the recent AJ Burnett deal, they shouldn't have a problem moving him to a NL team this offseason, if not sooner. And get back something significant in return.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

    In response to ADG's comment:

     

     

    Agreed. Let's see how he does the rest of the year. The issue is the 2-year deal they gave Dempster. He's an albatross for next year.

     

     



    An albatross refers to a player who has so greatly underperformed in the midst of a lucrative multi-year contract, that he becomes a bad asset which no team wants. Examples of recent albatrosses:

    Barry Zito

    Alex Rodriguez

    Mark Teixeira

    CC Sabathia

    Dempster is having a down year, but he's an innings eater and can still miss bats (K% is better than career norm). For only one year of commitment, he will draw interest from some national league teams.

    Here are the reasons Dempster sucks right now and why his spot on the postseason roster is in jeopardy (Fangraphs)...

    • FB% highest since 2001
    • GB% lowest since 2001
    • HR/FB Ratio highest since 2001 (14.1%)
    • BB% highest since 2005
    • tERA highest since 2003 (5.31)
    • FIP highest since 2003 (4.87)

    Since he was traded to the Rangers a year ago, his record in the AL is:

    • W-L 13-11
    • IP 196
    • HR 31
    • ERA 4.73
    • BB/SO 86/188
    • WHIP 1.47

    The Sox will likely have to eat some of his salary but based on the results of the recent AJ Burnett deal, they shouldn't have a problem moving him to a NL team this offseason, if not sooner. And get back something significant in return.



    He's had poor run support, but I do wonder where all the happy-about-signing-Dempster posters have gone.

    In hindsight, had we traded Lester for Myers, we'd be looking better both now and longterm (even if we signed Dempster).

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: 2014 Rotation

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to CubanPete's comment:

     

    In response to ADG's comment:

     

     

    Agreed. Let's see how he does the rest of the year. The issue is the 2-year deal they gave Dempster. He's an albatross for next year.

     

     



    An albatross refers to a player who has so greatly underperformed in the midst of a lucrative multi-year contract, that he becomes a bad asset which no team wants. Examples of recent albatrosses:

    Barry Zito

    Alex Rodriguez

    Mark Teixeira

    CC Sabathia

    Dempster is having a down year, but he's an innings eater and can still miss bats (K% is better than career norm). For only one year of commitment, he will draw interest from some national league teams.

    Here are the reasons Dempster sucks right now and why his spot on the postseason roster is in jeopardy (Fangraphs)...

    • FB% highest since 2001
    • GB% lowest since 2001
    • HR/FB Ratio highest since 2001 (14.1%)
    • BB% highest since 2005
    • tERA highest since 2003 (5.31)
    • FIP highest since 2003 (4.87)

    Since he was traded to the Rangers a year ago, his record in the AL is:

    • W-L 13-11
    • IP 196
    • HR 31
    • ERA 4.73
    • BB/SO 86/188
    • WHIP 1.47

    The Sox will likely have to eat some of his salary but based on the results of the recent AJ Burnett deal, they shouldn't have a problem moving him to a NL team this offseason, if not sooner. And get back something significant in return.

     



    He's had poor run support, but I do wonder where all the happy-about-signing-Dempster posters have gone.

     

    In hindsight, had we traded Lester for Myers, we'd be looking better both now and longterm (even if we signed Dempster).



    I was never happy about the signing but he filled a need. So far he's been almost exactly what i thought he would be, a solid #5 who will take the ball every 5th day and eat some innings. As far as 5th starters go i don't think there are many better ones in the AL. that said, I'm looking to trade Dempster in the offseason knowing that we have 3-5 guys in the minors who will be looking to take that spot at low cost and probably give similar production.

     
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