3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    3 of the top 5 starting pitchers by WAR since 1984 played for the Sox at some point in their careers.

    (Also #13 Saberhagen, #14 D Wells, and #16 D Cone pitched for us for short stints after prime.)

    1) Clemens 139.9 (707 GS)   .198 per GS

    2) Maddux  114.3  (740)       .154/GS

    3) Randy J  110.3  (603)       .183/GS

    4) Martinez  86.8  (409)       .212/GS

    5) Schilling  83.5  (436)       .192/GS

    ...

    13) Saberhagen 58.8 (371)

    14) D Wells  58.0 (489)

    ...

    16) D Cone   55.5 (419)

     

    Thank you for allowing me to witness such greatness firsthand.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    Clemens corrupt stats, same as seeing Bonds atop the home run list, a lie.

     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

     

    Maddux was a freak during his career.  I'm surprised the Braves won only one World Series with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.  Then again, the Oakland A's never won a World Series (or even a playoff series win) with Mulder, Hudson and Zito.  

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

    Clemens corrupt stats, same as seeing Bonds atop the home run list, a lie.




    It was still fun watching Clemens before we knew what he was all about.

    There's also a slim chance he was clean in Boston, but he's a creep anyways.

    Pedro was the best I ever saw.

    Schill brought us to the promise land.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    Maddux was a freak during his career.  I'm surprised the Braves won only one World Series with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.  Then again, the Oakland A's never won a World Series (or even a playoff series win) with Mulder, Hudson and Zito.  

     



    Maddux was a "freak". One ring is a surprise, but baseball is not always just.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from kimsaysthis. Show kimsaysthis's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades


    So cool, Moon. That's really amazing when you think about it. Brilliance in action all for Sox fans' enjoyment.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:


    So cool, Moon. That's really amazing when you think about it. Brilliance in action all for Sox fans' enjoyment.



    And to think, the Sox are mostly remembered for having great offenses.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    Maddux was a freak during his career.  I'm surprised the Braves won only one World Series with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.  Then again, the Oakland A's never won a World Series (or even a playoff series win) with Mulder, Hudson and Zito.  

     



    I have to disagree with the freak label for Maddux.  Freak implies that there was something extraordinary about his physical make-up in relation to his stuff.  Like, Lincecum is a freak cuz he is 170 soaking wet and has(had) wicked movement on a mid-nineties fastball.

    But Maddux never threw higher than 85.  Maddux was the opposite of freak.  He was a perfectionsit who just mastered the craft.  The fact that he never intentionally left a ball up or over the plate in the entirety of his career is because he worked hard and mastered the art, not because of any freakish ability.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    Right Space, dude was the utlimate pitcher; had Maddux also had plus stuff, a mid 90s fastball say, he'd have pitched a shut-out virtually every time out.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Maddux was a freak during his career.  I'm surprised the Braves won only one World Series with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.  Then again, the Oakland A's never won a World Series (or even a playoff series win) with Mulder, Hudson and Zito.  

     

     



    I have to disagree with the freak label for Maddux.  Freak implies that there was something extraordinary about his physical make-up in relation to his stuff.  Like, Lincecum is a freak cuz he is 170 soaking wet and has(had) wicked movement on a mid-nineties fastball.

     

    But Maddux never threw higher than 85.  Maddux was the opposite of freak.  He was a perfectionsit who just mastered the craft.  The fact that he never intentionally left a ball up or over the plate in the entirety of his career is because he worked hard and mastered the art, not because of any freakish ability.

    [/QUOTE]

    It was freaky how much of a perfectionist he was. How's that?

    Pedro was an actual freak. His fingers were double jointed, which allowed him to bend his fingers back to throw a change-up that looked like a fastball.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

     

     


    So cool, Moon. That's really amazing when you think about it. Brilliance in action all for Sox fans' enjoyment.

     

     



    And to think, the Sox are mostly remembered for having great offenses.

     

     



    Possibly because there was a huge void between Cy Young and Smokey Joe Wood and the group mentioned in the O.P.

     

    I remember Jim Lonborg had a great 1967, got hurt in a skiing accident and never was the same. Luis Tiant was incredible , but had little help until Bill Lee and Rick Wise. In between we had some good pitchers who have faded in some people's memories. Ray Culp, Sonny Siebert, Jose Santiago, Bruce Hurst, Gary Peters, Reggie Cleveland. I remember these names not because of championships, not because of HOF careers, but mainly because they always tried their best and many were on teams that fell just short of winning it all.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    Oil Can should be on any list mentioning red sox pitching greatness.

    forget the stats...the dude was fun to watch

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    Loved Bruce Hurst, when it counted most wanted him on the mound over Clem. 

     

    Loved Pedro Martinez, great stuff but didn't coast on his gifts like some of the gifted (Beckett comes to mind); a true pitcher, crafty, even when he lost his stuff at the end he could still go out and beat you in a big game.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    Pedro in a 5 season stretch was as good as any other pitcher in MLB history when compared to his peers in that era. He worked his magic in a hitting era.

    Sox4ever

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Pedro in a 5 season stretch was as good as any other pitcher in MLB history when compared to his peers in that era. He worked his magic in a hitting era.

    Sox4ever



    Only a freak could vanquish the roid dragons as thoroughly as Pedro did.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Pedro in a 5 season stretch was as good as any other pitcher in MLB history when compared to his peers in that era. He worked his magic in a hitting era.

    Sox4ever

     



    Only a freak could vanquish the roid dragons as thoroughly as Pedro did.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I once did a study on great pitcher's differential between their ERA and the league ERA. Pedro's was the biggest differential I could find. He stood out above his peers. He dominated a league that was roid infested: you are right.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Maddux was a freak during his career.  I'm surprised the Braves won only one World Series with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.  Then again, the Oakland A's never won a World Series (or even a playoff series win) with Mulder, Hudson and Zito.  

     

     



    I have to disagree with the freak label for Maddux.  Freak implies that there was something extraordinary about his physical make-up in relation to his stuff.  Like, Lincecum is a freak cuz he is 170 soaking wet and has(had) wicked movement on a mid-nineties fastball.

     

    But Maddux never threw higher than 85.  Maddux was the opposite of freak.  He was a perfectionsit who just mastered the craft.  The fact that he never intentionally left a ball up or over the plate in the entirety of his career is because he worked hard and mastered the art, not because of any freakish ability.

    [/QUOTE]

    This is incorrect; in his prime, Maddux could throw in the low 90s.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    In response to SpacemanEephus' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    Maddux was a freak during his career.  I'm surprised the Braves won only one World Series with Maddux, Glavine and Smoltz.  Then again, the Oakland A's never won a World Series (or even a playoff series win) with Mulder, Hudson and Zito.  

     

     

     



    I have to disagree with the freak label for Maddux.  Freak implies that there was something extraordinary about his physical make-up in relation to his stuff.  Like, Lincecum is a freak cuz he is 170 soaking wet and has(had) wicked movement on a mid-nineties fastball.

     

     

    But Maddux never threw higher than 85.  Maddux was the opposite of freak.  He was a perfectionsit who just mastered the craft.  The fact that he never intentionally left a ball up or over the plate in the entirety of his career is because he worked hard and mastered the art, not because of any freakish ability.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    This is incorrect; in his prime, Maddux could throw in the low 90s.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    OK, fair enough Steven.  Overstatement on my part.  But, the point remains in tact.  Low 90s is nobody's idea of freak velocity; nor is it getting by anybody unless that pitcher is painting black.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaffyDan. Show DaffyDan's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Pedro in a 5 season stretch was as good as any other pitcher in MLB history when compared to his peers in that era. He worked his magic in a hitting era.

    Sox4ever



    I can't even begin to wonder what Pedro's 2000 1.74 ERA at the height of the steroid ERA would normalize to in the dead ball era.


    -Daf.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    Best WHIP seasons since 1916:

    1) Pedro  .737 (2000)

    2) Maddux .811 (1995) ...note the .074 margin

    3) D McNally .843 (1968) ... "the pitcher's year"

    4) B Gibson  .853 (1968)

    5) Koufax   .855 (1965)

    6) Marichal .859 (1966)

    7) Tiant      .871 (1968)

    8) R Nelson .871 (1972)

    9) Koufax   .875 (1963)

    10) Maddux .896 (1994)

     

    ERA+ (after 1931)

    1) Pedro    291 (2000)

    2) Maddux 271 (1994)

    3) Maddux 260 (1995)

    4) Gibson  258  (1968)

    5) Pedro    243  (1999) 2 of top 5

    6) Gooden 229  (1985)

    7) Clemens 226 (2005)

    8) Clemens 222 (1997)

    9) Pedro     219 (1997) 3 of top 9

    10) Brown  215 (1996)

    11) Pedro     211 (2003) 4 of top 11

    11) Clemens 211 (1990)

    13) Guidry    208 (1978)

    14) Greinke  205 (2009)

    15) Pedro     202 (2002)  5 of top 15

     

     

    K/BB

    1) Saberhagen 11.00 (1994)

    2) C Lee            10.28 (2010)

    3) Schilling       9.58  (2002)

    4) Pedro           8.88  (2000)

    5) Maddux        8.85  (1997)

    6) Pedro           8.46  (1999) 2 of top 6

    7) Sheets         8.25  (2004)

    8) C Silva         7.89  (2005)

    9) Maddux       7.87  (1995)

    10) Schilling   7.51  (2001)

     

    Sox4ever

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    For the 7 years from 1997 to 2003, Pedro went...

    118-36  

    ERA  2.20    (MLB 4.52)

    WHIP  0.94  (MLB: 1.41)

    ERA-  47      (100)

    K/BB   5.59  (1.89)

     

    I'm not sure if there is another pitcher in MLB history that has had a 7 year stretch with these differentials from the league averages combined (or individually):

    ERA:    -2.32

    WHIP: -0.47

    ERA-:  -53

    K/BB: +3.70

     

    Sox4ever

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    Wow, check out the whip, all the others but maddux are from the 60s era when pitching dominated.  Most impressive.  Pedro, one of the best evah!

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: 3 of the Top 5 over the last 3 Decades

    In response to soxnewmex's comment:

    Wow, check out the whip, all the others but maddux are from the 60s era when pitching dominated.  Most impressive.  Pedro, one of the best evah!



    For any 7 year period, I feel Pedro was the best of alltime.

     

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