5 tool?
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Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/25/2012 8:56 PM EDT
- moonslav59
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What about Pedey? -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/25/2012 9:08 PM EDT
- nhsteven
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Current - CarGo, Hamilton, Tulowitski, L. McCutcheon, KempCurrent 4.5 - Pedey (foot speed), Ells (arm), Cano (foot speed)Past - Mays (thru '66), Mantle (thru '62), Aaron, Bobby Bonds, Dawson, Lynn, Yaz, Clemente, Cobb, DiMaggio, Morgan, Yount (in '82), Griffey, Snider, Hornsby, Henderson, Kaline, Brett, Al Simmons, Wagner, Puckett, Winfield, Cool Papa Bell; I'm sure I left a few outGreatest & Complete 5 Toolers - Mays, then Clemente; both had incredible arms and defensive prowess, and Clemente played in a near impossible park for dingers -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/25/2012 9:50 PM EDT
- moonslav59
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I know the 30-30 club only measures 2 tools, but it is a list to look at to fins others who could be 4-5 tool players:My childhood baseball hero was Tommy Harper. He became just the secon American leaguer to reach the 30-30 club. He certainly wasn't even a 3 tool player, but I wanted to mention him.Some names on the list to remember:Eric DavisDale MurphyLarry WalkerEllis BurksVladimir GuerreroJimmy RollinsHanley RamirezRyan BraunMatt KempJoe CarterJose CansecoAlfonso SorianoGrady Sizemore -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/25/2012 10:18 PM EDT
- georom4
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six tool - josh beckett
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Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/25/2012 11:22 PM EDT
- teddybaseball009
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2! -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 12:13 AM EDT
- notin
- Posts: 8398
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The "five tool" thng gets thrown around at any player who can hit a home run and steal a base. I't very overused and rarely used properly.
For some reason, being a five tool player is viewed as the ultimate compliment, the "perfect player." There are plenty of good players who are not 5-tool, and plenty of 5-tool players who were not all that great.
JD Drew for example, was a five tool player. Albert Pujols has never been. Which one will walk into Cooperstown? Shaun Green was a five tool player. but hardly an all time great, too.
As for Crawford, I'd agree with anyone who says he is a 3-tool player... -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 12:19 AM EDT
- notin
- Posts: 8398
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:Current - CarGo, Hamilton, Tulowitski, L. McCutcheon, Kemp Current 4.5 - Pedey (foot speed), Ells (arm), Cano (foot speed) Past - Mays (thru '66), Mantle (thru '62), Aaron, Bobby Bonds, Dawson, Lynn, Yaz, Clemente, Cobb, DiMaggio, Morgan, Yount (in '82), Griffey, Snider, Hornsby, Henderson, Kaline, Brett, Al Simmons, Wagner, Puckett, Winfield, Cool Papa Bell; I'm sure I left a few out Greatest & Complete 5 Toolers - Mays, then Clemente; both had incredible arms and defensive prowess, and Clemente played in a near impossible park for dingers
Posted by nhsteven
Also, David Wright and Ian Kinsler would meet fan criteria as 5-tool players.
However, the 5-tool label is really only supposed to be appiled at the minor league level, and is nothing more than scouting jargon. The most a propos name to apply it to should be Mike Trout. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 12:23 AM EDT
- traven
- Posts: 3442
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Just one tool...unfortunately it's a monkey wrench. Seriously though fans have to get over the CC signing. He will be with the Sox for a long time to come and the posts are getting old and they are all the same. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:10 AM EDT
- notin
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:Just one tool...unfortunately it's a monkey wrench. Seriously though fans have to get over the CC signing. He will be with the Sox for a long time to come and the posts are getting old and they are all the same.
Posted by traven
Amen.
And if it means we "only" have $150mill to make a contender, I think we'll manage.
Believe it or not, it is possible... -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:47 AM EDT
- hankwilliamsjr
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Ellsbury does not "consistently hit for power", has a weak arm, and has never seen a ball he wanted to dive for or hit the wall to catch. He misplays routine balls and then makes them appear to be "web gems". Ellsbury is an "on the shelf" tool who has speed and hits for average. He's a 2 tool tool who is worthy of carrying Ortiz's luggage.
Crawford is a 1 tool player, which was why I said to "avoid market contract offers for Carl Crawford, like the plague". -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 7:08 AM EDT
- MadMc44
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For my take I generally think of outfielders when I think of "5 Tools."However today I would say Hanley is close ARod and Hamilton are in the same category.I think "In the Day" outfielders that had arms like Dewey's and Clemente's were the stuff that coaches never allowed runners to advance on. But 5 tools is a God Given talent few are blessed with. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 7:33 AM EDT
- mryazz
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:In Response to Re: 5 tool? : Also, David Wright and Ian Kinsler would meet fan criteria as 5-tool players. However, the 5-tool label is really only supposed to be appiled at the minor league level, and is nothing more than scouting jargon. The most a propos name to apply it to should be Mike Trout.
Posted by notin
i disagree, neither hits with a high enough average nor with enough power.
don't dis what a 5 tool player should be.
i thought most of you on this board had knowledge on the 5 tool criteria.
i was wrong. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:10 PM EDT
- andrewmitch
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Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:14 PM EDT
- andrewmitch
- Posts: 16690
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How about set standards for each tool? Well rounded is nice but to be just "average" at each is not really.
How about
AVG = 333, OBP = 400 (maybe < 100 K's?)
HR = 40, SLG = 600%
SB = /> 30, SB % /> 75%
Defenise = Eye Test
And then for what time period? How many years? Perhaps average out their prime 5 years?
Maybe just look at Willie Mays for the standard across all categories and try and find guys who have exceeded this.
So, who do yo guys think is the biggest beast today in all categories and who is of all time? Off the top of my head I'd have to say Mays & Hamilton....By the way, should we ingore "corner players" ? It's hard for a SS, 2B, and CF consistently bash 40 HR's........ -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:51 PM EDT
- mryazz
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:How about set standards for each tool? Well rounded is nice but to be just "average" at each is not really. How about AVG = 333, OBP = 400 (maybe < 100 K's?) HR = 40, SLG = 600% SB = /> 30, SB % /> 75% Defenise = Eye Test And then for what time period? How many years? Perhaps average out their prime 5 years? Maybe just look at Willie Mays for the standard across all categories and try and find guys who have exceeded this. So, who do yo guys think is the biggest beast today in all categories and who is of all time? Off the top of my head I'd have to say Mays & Hamilton....By the way, should we ingore "corner players" ? It's hard for a SS, 2B, and CF consistently bash 40 HR's........
Posted by andrewmitch
i would go with MAYS and MANTLE. they're pretty much the standard of what defines a 5 tool player. hamilton is the closest of anyone playing today, but he'll never reach the levels set by mays/mantle combo.
also, usually 5 tool players tend to be outfielders. in fact i think the term originated scouting outfielders. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:55 PM EDT
- thepeskypole6
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:Thanks....Yaz, Lynn, Nomar and Pedey and maybe Ellsbury and Burks..... Others of our time - Barry Larkin......maybe Kirby Puckett........How about Eric Davis??????
Posted by andrewmitchYaz is the greatest...but he didn't have the speed...not sure about Larkin and his power -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:56 PM EDT
- PaulLaCourse
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In Response to 5 tool?:i don't think you can have enough posts about a 140+ million dollar ballplayer; so here's one more. watching the MLB network the other night, one of the commentators mentioned that the SOX would be in much better shape when their 5 tool player carl crawford returned. now my definition of the 5 tools is: 1) can hit for high average 2) can hit consistently with power 3) has speed on the bases 4) can play excellent defense 5) possesses a strong throwing arm. ignoring that commentator who lives in fantasyland, how many tools do you think crawford possesses? ps. before some of my fellow posters say it. yes, i'm a tool.
Posted by mryazz
Well I am sure he has a hammer and a screwdriver; every household has one. Other than that I am not sure if he has any tools at all. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 1:56 PM EDT
- thepeskypole6
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Griffey is the best 5 tool player from this past generation -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 2:34 PM EDT
- hankwilliamsjr
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Ellsbury is the best 5 tools of knowledge players from this past and current generation:
1. Knows how to take as much sick leave as possilbe with full pay
2. Knows how to avoid walls
3. Knows how to take the bloopers/end of the bat on one high hop
4. Knows how to make the control clock run without any risk to his health
5. Knows how to read from his agent's notes on questions related to his commitement to winning for and with the team
Any GM that fails to study Ellsbury's numbers with weak hitters around him will regret market contract offers, more than the offers on Crawford. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 2:46 PM EDT
- nhsteven
- Posts: 11450
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:I know the 30-30 club only measures 2 tools, but it is a list to look at to fins others who could be 4-5 tool players: http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/hi3030c.shtml My childhood baseball hero was Tommy Harper. He became just the secon American leaguer to reach the 30-30 club. He certainly wasn't even a 3 tool player, but I wanted to mention him. Some names on the list to remember: Eric Davis Dale Murphy Larry Walker Ellis Burks Vladimir Guerrero Jimmy Rollins Hanley Ramirez Ryan Braun Matt Kemp Joe Carter Jose Canseco Alfonso Soriano Grady Sizemore
Posted by moonslav59
Canseco, Guerrero, Soriano, Carter, Ramirez, (and to some degree Braun) were never superior fielders.
Rollins was arguably never a superior hitter, either for average or power
Sizemore was good for a year or two, then was b-nged up
Eric Davis had big holes in his swing, and injuries made his talents fade quickly -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 4:29 PM EDT
- mryazz
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:In Response to 5 tool? : Well I am sure he has a hammer and a screwdriver; every household has one. Other than that I am not sure if he has any tools at all.
Posted by PaulLaCourseusing that example, then this board is only one tool. all this board has is aHAMMAH. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 4:32 PM EDT
- mryazz
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:Ellsbury is the best 5 tools of knowledge players from this past and current generation: 1. Knows how to take as much sick leave as possilbe with full pay 2. Knows how to avoid walls 3. Knows how to take the bloopers/end of the bat on one high hop 4. Knows how to make the control clock run without any risk to his health 5. Knows how to read from his agent's notes on questions related to his commitement to winning for and with the team Any GM that fails to study Ellsbury's numbers with weak hitters around him will regret market contract offers, more than the offers on Crawford.
Posted by hankwilliamsjrwell, you definitely are a tool; just like the fool your moniker is named after. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 4:40 PM EDT
- Roadrunner9234
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Hank, when did Ellsbury have weak hitters around him? -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 4:49 PM EDT
- maxbialystock
- Posts: 4277
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:The "five tool" thng gets thrown around at any player who can hit a home run and steal a base. I't very overused and rarely used properly. For some reason, being a five tool player is viewed as the ultimate compliment, the "perfect player." There are plenty of good players who are not 5-tool, and plenty of 5-tool players who were not all that great. JD Drew for example, was a five tool player. Albert Pujols has never been. Which one will walk into Cooperstown? Shaun Green was a five tool player. but hardly an all time great, too. As for Crawford, I'd agree with anyone who says he is a 3-tool player...
Posted by notin
Completely agree, which is why I first listed all those truly great players--Williams, Ruth, Cobb, etc--who were not at all five tool players. If I had to pick one guy as the all time best, it would probably be Ruth because he hit a lot of dingers, still batted over .340 for his career, and was a heckuva pitcher (in Boston, anyway). Second place I would probably give to Mays because I actually saw him play, if only on TV. At his HOF induction, he said something like, "I gotta say I never saw anybody play the game better." Now that's chutzpah, but pretty close to the mark.
Drew was sort of a five tool player except maybe for the baserunning. I used to rail about how little he contributed, but in fact he was a heckuva defensive rightfielder who could sometimes hit the ball pretty well. -
Re: 5 tool?
posted at 4/26/2012 4:51 PM EDT
- SpacemanEephus
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In Response to Re: 5 tool?:Ellsbury is the best 5 tools of knowledge players from this past and current generation: 1. Knows how to take as much sick leave as possilbe with full pay 2. Knows how to avoid walls 3. Knows how to take the bloopers/end of the bat on one high hop 4. Knows how to make the control clock run without any risk to his health 5. Knows how to read from his agent's notes on questions related to his commitement to winning for and with the team Any GM that fails to study Ellsbury's numbers with weak hitters around him will regret market contract offers, more than the offers on Crawford.
Posted by hankwilliamsjrThe funniest thing about your painting of Ellsbury as a work-shirking, soft, arby-clock-milker is that both of the injuries he has sustained to keep him out of action for prolonged periods were from bang-bang, all-out-hustle, no-fear plays.