A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to royf19's comment:

    In response to jete02fan's comment:

    In response to kimsaysthis' comment:

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    Is Mariano Rivera a Hall of Famer?   

    is David Ortiz a Hall of Famer?....Hill's post to Kim above touts Big P's central role in the Sox' three titles....i fully acknowledge there's likely more than that, but if you are going by central roles to title teams, then Flapjack's question shouldn't even entertain a debate...FTR, he's already the best that's ever done it, and barring an offensive meltdown, i believe he'll get in...




    As big of an Ortiz fan as I am, I'd like to see him add to his career stats a bit more so he can seperate from the pack a bit more. The postseason success does help him however.

    unless he breaks down, or the team has such a collapse that he doesn't get pitched to, i could see him maintaining....


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    I don't think Papi should need to pad his career numbers to get in. The guy has been a force for over a decade. 3 rings in 10 years, and a big reason for those rings was what Papi did throughtout those 3 playoff seasons.

    I mean just look at these playoff series OPS numbers:

    2004:

    ANA  1.688

    NYY  1.199

    STL   1.086

    2007:

    LAA  2.418

    CLE    .966

    COL   .945

    2013:

    TBR  1.479

    DET    .427 (But, the biggest granny in the history of MLB)

    STL  1.948

    Career postseason:

    ALDS  .939

    ALCS  .846

    WS  1.372 (3 HRs in 44 ABs)

    Total: .962 (17 Hrs and 60 RBI in 295 ABs)

    Mr. October, Reggie Jackson has these numbers:

    ALDS  .933 (1 series)

    ALCS  .679

    WS   1.212 (10 HRs in 98 ABs)

    Total: .885  (18 HRs and 48 RBIs in 281 ABs)

    Now, I'm not saying Reggie made it on his WS heroics; Reggie had fantastic career numbers, but to Papi's playoff performances are legendary. While nobody should make it to the HOF based on just a few playoff series, Papi's regular season numbers have been pretty dominating. He's had 9 seasons with an OPS over .899 and 10 over .877.

    I think we could reasonably assume he could hit 26 Hrs in 2014 and maybe 23 in 2015, if he doesn't retire. That would give him 460 career with maybe over 1600 RBIs.

    Right now his 162 game average is (679 PAs):

    .287  35  118 (with 44 2B+3B) OBP .381/ SLG .549/ OPS .930

    How many MLB players have a postseason OPS 32 points higher than their regular season career OPS? (And a .930 regular season OPS to boot!)

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    With Carlos B moving to the Yankees, a few writers seem to think Beltran is a shoe in for the HOF. With Ortiz also in the latter years of his career all I hear from a number of writers is he needs to approach 500hrs to get in.

    With just about the same amount of years of playing MLB Ortiz is well ahead of Beltran in a number of important categories. Beltran has scored more runs, has more career hits, Ortiz is well ahead in the home run category, career doubles, BBs, more RBIs, high career OBP 0f .381 to Beltrans .359, a higher SLG percentage of .549 to Beltrans.496 and a much higher OPS of .930 to Beltrans .854. And importantly Ortiz has amasses better stats 0ver a career with 800 or about 12% less at bats .    

    Beside the stats, Ortis has been in the top 5 of MVP voting five times to Beltrans once, Beltran an All-Star 8 times to Big Papis 9 times an All-Star. So why are some writers calling Beltran a shoe as opposed to David Ortiz.

    Hetch  




     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF


    This is s no brainer. DO has done more for Boston Baseball, than any player since TW. And that includes Martinez, Yaz, etc. He has transcended statistics, and is, right now, Baseball's Shing Light. Forget the stats, the positions played. That's all nothing but silly conversation.


    PLUS, stop waffling and jerking him around with an extension. Give him the 2 years, and a mil or two more han his agent has asked.

    HOF? A no-brainer, as I said, first ballot nearly unanimous.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 2013soxchamps. Show 2013soxchamps's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:


    This is s no brainer. DO has done more for Boston Baseball, than any player since TW. And that includes Martinez, Yaz, etc. He has transcended statistics, and is, right now, Baseball's Shing Light. Forget the stats, the positions played. That's all nothing but silly conversation.


    PLUS, stop waffling and jerking him around with an extension. Give him the 2 years, and a mil or two more han his agent has asked.

    HOF? A no-brainer, as I said, first ballot nearly unanimous.




    Standing and applauding!

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:


    This is s no brainer. DO has done more for Boston Baseball, than any player since TW. And that includes Martinez, Yaz, etc. He has transcended statistics, and is, right now, Baseball's Shing Light. Forget the stats, the positions played. That's all nothing but silly conversation.


    PLUS, stop waffling and jerking him around with an extension. Give him the 2 years, and a mil or two more han his agent has asked.

    HOF? A no-brainer, as I said, first ballot nearly unanimous.



    while i agree with most of your post i can not agree with the highlighted section. jerking him around? how so? that would imply the sox put a 2 year deal on the table and then rescinded it. Cherrington gave him what he wanted last offseason (the 2 year deal) and both partied agreed not to discuss an extension until the deal was over.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Dave Parker Statistics and History - Baseball-Reference.com is another great example of a slugger who was still hitting for power at age 39... and was out of MLB all together by 41.... Ortiz at some point will have his numbers plunge and be gone. 

    HOF I cannot say no to this.....  but I cannot say yes either. I will let the voters decide.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    With Carlos B moving to the Yankees, a few writers seem to think Beltran is a shoe in for the HOF. With Ortiz also in the latter years of his career all I hear from a number of writers is he needs to approach 500hrs to get in.

    With just about the same amount of years of playing MLB Ortiz is well ahead of Beltran in a number of important categories. Beltran has scored more runs, has more career hits, Ortiz is well ahead in the home run category, career doubles, BBs, more RBIs, high career OBP 0f .381 to Beltrans .359, a higher SLG percentage of .549 to Beltrans.496 and a much higher OPS of .930 to Beltrans .854. And importantly Ortiz has amasses better stats 0ver a career with 800 or about 12% less at bats .    

    Beside the stats, Ortis has been in the top 5 of MVP voting five times to Beltrans once, Beltran an All-Star 8 times to Big Papis 9 times an All-Star. So why are some writers calling Beltran a shoe as opposed to David Ortiz.

    Hetch  




    Forget the stats; in this case they mean almost nothing. DO is the face of baseball, the savior of the Red Sox right from his signing, and belongs In Boston's Brightest with Brady, Belichek, Williams and Bobby Orr. Not HOF? That's insane!

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:

    This is s no brainer. DO has done more for Boston Baseball, than any player since TW. And that includes Martinez, Yaz, etc. He has transcended statistics, and is, right now, Baseball's Shing Light. Forget the stats, the positions played. That's all nothing but silly conversation.

    PLUS, stop waffling and jerking him around with an extension. Give him the 2 years, and a mil or two more han his agent has asked.

    HOF? A no-brainer, as I said, first ballot nearly unanimous.

    David Ortiz finished 10th* in the American League MVP voting and posted spectacular postseason numbers in leading the Red Sox to the 2013 World Series title. Ortiz was the face of MLB for the month of October 2013.

    If Hall of Fame voters continue to become more sabermetric-savvy, Ortiz won't come anywhere near a unanimous first-ballot selection to the Hall of Fame. Ortiz ranks in a tie for 391st in career WAR, as reported at Baseball Reference:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

    As a point of reference, Seattle designated hitter Edgar Martinez ranks in a tie for 109th. FanGraphs reports a similar disparity in career WAR with Martinez at 65.6 WAR and Ortiz at 40.9 WAR.

    Taken literally, it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Baseball's Best Players. With postseason heroics enroute to three World Series titles, Ortiz may well ride that fame into the Hall of Fame.

    Ortiz has a career WAR of 44.2, according to Baseball Reference. The last five position players to be inducted on the first ballot were Ricky Henderson with a career WAR of 110.7, Cal Ripkin Jr. with a WAR of 95.6, Tony Gwynn with a WAR of 68.9, Wade Boggs with a WAR of 80.5 and Paul Molitor with a WAR of 75.5.

    I just don't see Ortiz as a nearly unanimous first-ballot inductee.

    * in 2013 Ortiz finished in the Top 10 in the AL MVP voting for the first time in six years. In the five previous seasons Ortiz finished in the top five without winning the honor.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Ortiz should be in the Hall of Fame, best playoff hitter ever, best DH ever, and probably 5 or 6 of the greatest moments in MLB history going back to 2004. He is the face of baseball today. He wasn't even the face of Red Sox baseball during the Manny years. He is what Pete Rose was for baseball prior to the gambling issues-an ambassador. When even novice fans see a commercial for baseball--you can bet they know that Big Papi plays baseball and plays for Boston. I will not go into "involved" statistics in this thread but I will say that the DH has been in baseball since 1973. That's a ridiculously long time to still knock the position from a historical standpoint. Aaron didn't break Ruth's HR record until 1974. He is a 9-time All-Star, 5 times top 5 in AL MVP voting, streak of 12 straight 20-or-more HR seasons, seven 30-or-more HR seasons, seven times 100 RBI (two others were 96 and 99), 4 times had seasons of more than 1.000 OPS, eleven 30-plus doubles seasons, member of 3 WS champion teams. Yaz is in, Ortiz should be in.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:


    This is s no brainer. DO has done more for Boston Baseball, than any player since TW. And that includes Martinez, Yaz, etc. He has transcended statistics, and is, right now, Baseball's Shing Light. Forget the stats, the positions played. That's all nothing but silly conversation.


    PLUS, stop waffling and jerking him around with an extension. Give him the 2 years, and a mil or two more han his agent has asked.

    HOF? A no-brainer, as I said, first ballot nearly unanimous.



    while i agree with most of your post i can not agree with the highlighted section. jerking him around? how so? that would imply the sox put a 2 year deal on the table and then rescinded it. Cherrington gave him what he wanted last offseason (the 2 year deal) and both partied agreed not to discuss an extension until the deal was over.




    I think they should have made a point of saying "Thanks, Papi", as soon as the series was over, by announcing they had a deal. And that is, a deal without any hassleing. That's really all I implied.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:

    This is s no brainer. DO has done more for Boston Baseball, than any player since TW. And that includes Martinez, Yaz, etc. He has transcended statistics, and is, right now, Baseball's Shing Light. Forget the stats, the positions played. That's all nothing but silly conversation.

    PLUS, stop waffling and jerking him around with an extension. Give him the 2 years, and a mil or two more han his agent has asked.

    HOF? A no-brainer, as I said, first ballot nearly unanimous.

    David Ortiz finished 10th* in the American League MVP voting and posted spectacular postseason numbers in leading the Red Sox to the 2013 World Series title. Ortiz was the face of MLB for the month of October 2013.

    If Hall of Fame voters continue to become more sabermetric-savvy, Ortiz won't come anywhere near a unanimous first-ballot selection to the Hall of Fame. Ortiz ranks in a tie for 391st in career WAR, as reported at Baseball Reference:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

    As a point of reference, Seattle designated hitter Edgar Martinez ranks in a tie for 109th. FanGraphs reports a similar disparity in career WAR with Martinez at 65.6 WAR and Ortiz at 40.9 WAR.

    Taken literally, it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Baseball's Best Players. With postseason heroics enroute to three World Series titles, Ortiz may well ride that fame into the Hall of Fame.

    Ortiz has a career WAR of 44.2, according to Baseball Reference. The last five position players to be inducted on the first ballot were Ricky Henderson with a career WAR of 110.7, Cal Ripkin Jr. with a WAR of 95.6, Tony Gwynn with a WAR of 68.9, Wade Boggs with a WAR of 80.5 and Paul Molitor with a WAR of 75.5.

    I just don't see Ortiz as a nearly unanimous first-ballot inductee.

    * in 2013 Ortiz finished in the Top 10 in the AL MVP voting for the first time in six years. In the five previous seasons Ortiz finished in the top five without winning the honor.



    I'm a big fan of great defense, but WAR overinflates some positions' defensive value.

    Take Victorino's 2013 season. Was he really MLB's 15th most valued player?

    He may very well have had the 7th best defensive output last year (+19.5), and RF defense is very important in Fenway, but he ranked 50th out of 140 ML'er on offense at +14.8.

    I loved the season Shane gave us in 2013, but he was not the 15th best player in 2013. He missed 40 games and had a decent .802 OPS, but come on!

    I respect WAR, but it has some flaws.

    WAR for DHs and RP'ers needs to be adjusted. 

     

    BTW, Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the HOF- no doubt, but was his WAR much better than Papi's sue in part to playing 300 more games in the field and not as a DH?

    I know his OBP was spectacular... something like over .420 for 7 straight years, and his SLG% was right up there as well. He had better numbers than Papi, but didn't shine like Papi in the postseason.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    In response to bosoxmal's comment:

    This is s no brainer. DO has done more for Boston Baseball, than any player since TW. And that includes Martinez, Yaz, etc. He has transcended statistics, and is, right now, Baseball's Shing Light. Forget the stats, the positions played. That's all nothing but silly conversation.

    PLUS, stop waffling and jerking him around with an extension. Give him the 2 years, and a mil or two more han his agent has asked.

    HOF? A no-brainer, as I said, first ballot nearly unanimous.

    David Ortiz finished 10th* in the American League MVP voting and posted spectacular postseason numbers in leading the Red Sox to the 2013 World Series title. Ortiz was the face of MLB for the month of October 2013.

    If Hall of Fame voters continue to become more sabermetric-savvy, Ortiz won't come anywhere near a unanimous first-ballot selection to the Hall of Fame. Ortiz ranks in a tie for 391st in career WAR, as reported at Baseball Reference:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/WAR_career.shtml

    As a point of reference, Seattle designated hitter Edgar Martinez ranks in a tie for 109th. FanGraphs reports a similar disparity in career WAR with Martinez at 65.6 WAR and Ortiz at 40.9 WAR.

    Taken literally, it's the Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Baseball's Best Players. With postseason heroics enroute to three World Series titles, Ortiz may well ride that fame into the Hall of Fame.

    Ortiz has a career WAR of 44.2, according to Baseball Reference. The last five position players to be inducted on the first ballot were Ricky Henderson with a career WAR of 110.7, Cal Ripkin Jr. with a WAR of 95.6, Tony Gwynn with a WAR of 68.9, Wade Boggs with a WAR of 80.5 and Paul Molitor with a WAR of 75.5.

    I just don't see Ortiz as a nearly unanimous first-ballot inductee.

    * in 2013 Ortiz finished in the Top 10 in the AL MVP voting for the first time in six years. In the five previous seasons Ortiz finished in the top five without winning the honor.

     



    I'm a big fan of great defense, but WAR overinflates some positions' defensive value.

     

    Take Victorino's 2013 season. Was he really MLB's 15th most valued player?

    He may very well have had the 7th best defensive output last year (+19.5), and RF defense is very important in Fenway, but he ranked 50th out of 140 ML'er on offense at +14.8.

    I loved the season Shane gave us in 2013, but he was not the 15th best player in 2013. He missed 40 games and had a decent .802 OPS, but come on!

    I respect WAR, but it has some flaws.

    WAR for DHs and RP'ers needs to be adjusted. 

     

    BTW, Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the HOF- no doubt, but was his WAR much better than Papi's sue in part to playing 300 more games in the field and not as a DH?

    I know his OBP was spectacular... something like over .420 for 7 straight years, and his SLG% was right up there as well. He had better numbers than Papi, but didn't shine like Papi in the postseason.



    Agreed

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'm a big fan of great defense, but WAR overinflates some positions' defensive value.

    Take Victorino's 2013 season. Was he really MLB's 15th most valued player?

    He may very well have had the 7th best defensive output last year (+19.5), and RF defense is very important in Fenway, but he ranked 50th out of 140 ML'er on offense at +14.8.

    I loved the season Shane gave us in 2013, but he was not the 15th best player in 2013. He missed 40 games and had a decent .802 OPS, but come on!

    I respect WAR, but it has some flaws.

    WAR for DHs and RP'ers needs to be adjusted. 

    BTW, Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the HOF- no doubt, but was his WAR much better than Papi's sue in part to playing 300 more games in the field and not as a DH?

    I know his OBP was spectacular... something like over .420 for 7 straight years, and his SLG% was right up there as well. He had better numbers than Papi, but didn't shine like Papi in the postseason.

     

    As with any stat, the smaller sample of a single-season WAR such as Shane Victorino's is not as telling as a career WAR spanning 17 or 18 MLB seasons.

    According to Baseball Reference, David Ortiz had a career dWAR of a negative 17.7 and a career OPS+ of 139 while Edgar Martinez had a career dWAR of a negative 9.7 and a career OPS+ of 147.

    Edgar Martinez did not have as many opportunities to shine in the postseason as David Ortiz has, but Martinez had his moments, including the most famous hit in Seattle Mariner history, a two-run double in the bottom of the 11th inning in the deciding Game 5 of the 1995 ALDS to carry the Mariners past the Yankees (on my 40th birthdaySmile):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fljZ_QilQMQ

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    It's kind of surprising to me that Edgar had a career OPS+ that much higher than Ortiz. Wow! And he didn't get in? 

    The voters are undervaluing DH players too much.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to hill55's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    I'm a big fan of great defense, but WAR overinflates some positions' defensive value.

    Take Victorino's 2013 season. Was he really MLB's 15th most valued player?

    He may very well have had the 7th best defensive output last year (+19.5), and RF defense is very important in Fenway, but he ranked 50th out of 140 ML'er on offense at +14.8.

    I loved the season Shane gave us in 2013, but he was not the 15th best player in 2013. He missed 40 games and had a decent .802 OPS, but come on!

    I respect WAR, but it has some flaws.

    WAR for DHs and RP'ers needs to be adjusted. 

    BTW, Edgar Martinez deserves to be in the HOF- no doubt, but was his WAR much better than Papi's sue in part to playing 300 more games in the field and not as a DH?

    I know his OBP was spectacular... something like over .420 for 7 straight years, and his SLG% was right up there as well. He had better numbers than Papi, but didn't shine like Papi in the postseason.

     

    As with any stat, the smaller sample of a single-season WAR such as Shane Victorino's is not as telling as a career WAR spanning 17 or 18 MLB seasons.

    According to Baseball Reference, David Ortiz had a career dWAR of a negative 17.7 and a career OPS+ of 139 while Edgar Martinez had a career dWAR of a negative 9.7 and a career OPS+ of 147.

    Edgar Martinez did not have as many opportunities to shine in the postseason that David Ortiz has, but Martinez had his moments, including the most famous hit in Seattle Mariner history, a two-run double in the bottom of the 11th inning in the deciding Game 5 of the 1995 ALDS to carry the Mariners past the Yankees (on my 40th birthdaySmile):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fljZ_QilQMQ



    Good points, but part of the reason the Sox played in more playoff series is ebcause Papi carried them to the next series and then the next series...

    So, it does appear Papi's much lower career WAR than Edgar's is in part due to a larger defensive negative.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to RedsoxProspects' comment:

    It's kind of surprising to me that Edgar had a career OPS+ that much higher than Ortiz. Wow! And he didn't get in? 

    The voters are undervaluing DH players too much.



    I do think a DH needs to do a little more on offense than a positional player, but the HOF has many poor fielders that were negatives on defense, so I can't see how playing poor defense is better than not playing defense at all.

     
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