A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    Bill, 

    Your question is so idiotic I won't bother answering. If you think all that Ortiz does is bash the ball it does show a true lack of knowledge of baseball. Please do not bother answering unless you've something intelligent to counter with. 

    Grasp this concept if you are capable. Intelligent commentary is based on more than ones ability to put words on a page. 

    Hetch

    [/QUOTE]

    I give you credit for even responding to him with this. All bill does is throw out some sort of unintelligent one-liner. Then if you try to engage him in conversation to expand on his point, he either doesn't respond or responds with some other comment that doesn't address your post. That's why I have little respect for his posts.

    [/QUOTE]

    Roy, 

    In all honesty my first comeback to Bill was a little more on the insulting side but I decided to tone it down, but you are correct about Bill. Have a great Holiday Season.

    Hetch 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    Bill, 

    Your comment is so pointless I won't bother countering. If you think all that Ortiz does is bash the ball it does show a true lack of knowledge of baseball. Please do not bother answering unless you've something intelligent to counter with. 

    Grasp this concept if you are capable. Intelligent commentary is based on more than ones ability to put words on a page. 

    Hetch

    [/QUOTE]Before you take me to TASK, im just saying that he is a great hitter, can't run, does not play a position so one is left to ask, besides hitting ,what other things has he done ?????  You can't tell me, that Im the only one on this board that is asking that ???


    [/QUOTE]

    OK, I'll break my own rule and respond

    He runs the bases better than you give him credit for or haven't you been paying attention. Running doesn't necessarily mean stolen bases. If he didn't run the bases, he wouldn't have as many doubles as he does or even the few triples.

    He can play 1B and is better at 1B than other guys in the pre-DH days who played a position out of necessity. Beyond that, few players in the Hall of Fame are in their because of their defense. Yes, there are some players where that helped.

    But most hitters are judged strictly on offensive numbers. Is Reggie Jackson in the Hall of Fame because of his defense. No. He's a .262 career hitter who is in the Hall of Fame because he hit 563 HRs.

    If Ortiz was to reach the numbers I posted on the previous page, he would have 506 HRs, 1,699 RBIs, 610 doubles, 1,448 runs. Jackson's numbers are 563 HRs, 1,702 RBIs, 463 doubles, 1,551 runs.

    And to add, Ortiz's career batting is more than 20 points higher, while Jackson set the career record for most strikeouts.

    So except for Jackson hitting about 60 more home runs, Ortiz's numbers would be similar or even better if you consider extra-base hits in total.

    Yet by your rationale, are you saying Jackson is a HOF simply because he played mediocre or worse defense?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    FanGraphs has David Ortiz valued at 40.9 WAR in 1,969 games, Carlos Beltran at 64.2 WAR inb 2,064 games and Edgar Martinez at 65.1 WAR in 2,055 games.

    Baseball Reference has Ortiz valued at 44.2 WAR, Beltran at 67.5 WAR and Martinez at 68.3 WAR.

    But taken literally, it's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of Baseball's Best Players. Because Ortiz played in the national spotlight on three World Series champions, Ortiz probably rides the fame to get the nod over Beltran and Martinez despite a significantly inferior career WAR.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    [/QUOTE]

    High  OBP

    Clutch hits

     

     
  6. This post has been removed.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to niton's comment:

    The BBWAA needs to make the following changes:

     

    1.  anyone who refuses to vote for an incredibly obvious candidate like Greg Maddux, simply becuase Babe Ruth was not elected unaminously should have their voting rights stripped and should never be allowed to cover any sport except Slamball.

     

    2.  anyone who uses the phrase "first ballot Hall of Famer" as if they differ in other ways

     

    I dissagree there R different calibers of HOF

    I have no problem with either of those views

    the more folklore associated with BB and the hall the better

     

    3.  Fifteen tries? That is stupid.  Unless a player becomes an executive, manager or umpire or something.  Either you are a Hal of Famer or you are not.  You get one try.  The BBWAA voting members need to realize this and adjust their stupid voting strategies accordingly.

    the 15 trys can have as much to do with some reporters retiring

    and being replaced with a reporter from a different generation

    and as roys pointed out

    nothing wrong with changing ones mind

    if there was then why ever have BB discussions

     

    I have questions as 2 if either ortiz or beltran are  HOF

    but less of a problem if ortiz gets in

    then again  I don't hate the users

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to royf19's comment:



    I might be wrong, but I don't think the BBWAA makes up the rules. The members vote, but I'm pretty sure it's the Hall of Fame that makes up the rules that the voters are supposed to follow.

    And 15 years might be long, but on the other hand nothing is black and white. There is reasonable grey area that reasonable people can disagree on and even change their mind about. Just because someone might vote for a guy in the first year or first couple of years, doesn't make him wrong if he re-evaluates a player's career.

    I never bought that idea that "if you have to think about it, he's not a Hall of Fame." There are guys already in that don't meet that criteria so it would be unfair to suddenly use that as a rationale. Comparing guys within their own era and against players from other eras isn't an easy task. 

    My problem with those who criticize the BBWAA members for their voting is this. Yes, there are some idiots who deserve ridicule for their voting. But as soon as you open the voting to more than a few, you're going to get that sort of behavior no matter who makes up the body. I like the idea that a few hundred vote. It usually will help negate the one or two idiots that might emerge each year.

    And yes, there are some guys who should be unanimous. But if a Maddus, for example, gets in on the first ballot, does it really matter if he got 90 percent, 98 percent or 100 percent of the vote. Too much has been made of this. Either you got enough votes or didn't. 


    good stuff roy

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    Bill, 

    Your comment is so pointless I won't bother countering. If you think all that Ortiz does is bash the ball it does show a true lack of knowledge of baseball. Please do not bother answering unless you've something intelligent to counter with. 

    Grasp this concept if you are capable. Intelligent commentary is based on more than ones ability to put words on a page. 

    Hetch

    [/QUOTE]Before you take me to TASK, im just saying that he is a great hitter, can't run, does not play a position so one is left to ask, besides hitting ,what other things has he done ?????  You can't tell me, that Im the only one on this board that is asking that ???
    [/QUOTE]

    Bill, 

    Thank you for finally making sense. Ortiz may not run well, but as a DH he does it better than anyone else at the position save Martinez and as a DH he does what is required of him as a DH. As a DH he's not required to play a poisition. But I counter with what else does a relief pitcher do other than come in, pitch to 3-4 batters and leave the game. In the American league because of the DH pitchers aren't allowed to hit. And yes you're not the only asking but your point is no more valid than keeping a great closer from the HOF because that is all they do. I don't buy into your argument and see it as pointless, the same as I don't buy the argument keeping great closers from the HOF.

     

    Hetch

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    [/QUOTE]All good points Roy & Hetch .......  Im just saying that with Davids "bashing #'s there is no question, however his other #'s in the game are questionable..... Im not looking for a fight here, but I am as well as others entitled to my opinion.....  It will all come out in the wash 5 years after he hangs them up !!!

    [/QUOTE]

    Now you go to making a baseless comment. What numbers are questionable. Please explain if you can.

    And to address your point, double plays. Check the record yourself if you dare. Ortiz is well down the list at 152nd with so many great player, including numerous hall of famers and greats who haven't made it to the HOF, your point is well taken but once again pointless. Check the list yourself.

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/GIDP_career.shtml

    Hetch

    Hetch 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac35. Show pinstripezac35's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    FanGraphs has David Ortiz valued at 40.9 WAR in 1,969 games, Carlos Beltran at 64.2 WAR inb 2,064 games and Edgar Martinez at 65.1 WAR in 2,055 games.

    Baseball Reference has Ortiz valued at 44.2 WAR, Beltran at 67.5 WAR and Edgar Martinez at 68.3 WAR.

    But taken literally, it's a Hall of Fame, not a Hall of Baseball's Best Players. Because Ortiz played in the national spotlight on three World Series champions, Ortiz probably rides the fame to get the nod over Beltran and Martinez despite a significantly inferior career WAR.

     

    interesting point hill

    I can't say I've heard that B4

    I'm not much of a war guy

    but point taken

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

     

     

    Bill, 

    Thank you for finally making sense. Ortiz may not run well, but as a DH he does it better than anyone else at the position save Martinez and as a DH he does what is required of him as a DH. As a DH he's not required to play a poisition. But I counter with what else does a relief pitcher do other than come in, pitch to 3-4 batters and leave the game. In the American league because of the DH pitchers aren't allowed to hit. And yes you're not the only asking but your point is no more valid than keeping a great closer from the HOF because that is all they do. I don't buy into your argument and see it as pointless, the same as I don't buy the argument keeping great closers from the HOF.

     Hetch

    [/QUOTE]Your right about the closers.....  Marianno will go in on 1st ballot, others like Papalbon won't have it so easy.  Getting back to PAPI, I think that we are seeing the last of the D H'ers and that position, on most teams now are being filled by 1/2/or 3 players picked for each game by stats ........ The days of a 15mil D H are ovaa !!!
    [/QUOTE]

    Bill, 

    Possibly but as long as there are hitters who are fine hitters available, and put into the DH role for whatever reason the DH will be alive and well. As for what a DH is paid, the market for a good DH will dictate pay scale. If a hitter is as successful as Papi comes along, one as great in the clutch, the 15mil per year will be equeled.

    As for Papelbon there are other closers who should be in the HOF well before him. 

    As for using WAR as a stat, sorry I'm not a believer in WAR when JD Drew has a higher career WAR than Ortiz. Explain that one to me. 

     Hetch

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    OK, I'll break my own rule and respond

    He runs the bases better than you give him credit for or haven't you been paying attention. Running doesn't necessarily mean stolen bases. If he didn't run the bases, he wouldn't have as many doubles as he does or even the few triples.

    He can play 1B and is better at 1B than other guys in the pre-DH days who played a position out of necessity. Beyond that, few players in the Hall of Fame are in their because of their defense. Yes, there are some players where that helped.

    But most hitters are judged strictly on offensive numbers. Is Reggie Jackson in the Hall of Fame because of his defense. No. He's a .262 career hitter who is in the Hall of Fame because he hit 563 HRs.

    If Ortiz was to reach the numbers I posted on the previous page, he would have 506 HRs, 1,699 RBIs, 610 doubles, 1,448 runs. Jackson's numbers are 563 HRs, 1,702 RBIs, 463 doubles, 1,551 runs.

    And to add, Ortiz's career batting is more than 20 points higher, while Jackson set the career record for most strikeouts.

    So except for Jackson hitting about 60 more home runs, Ortiz's numbers would be similar or even better if you consider extra-base hits in total.

    Yet by your rationale, are you saying Jackson is a HOF simply because he played mediocre or worse defense?

    Well said. It shouldn't help Papi's cause if he played 1B for 10 seasons at below average quality.

    The DH is a MLB position. He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    The DH is a MLB position. He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?

    [/QUOTE]

    Hi Moon, 

    Very concise and exactly to the point. Very well said. 

    Cheers, Hetch

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    [/QUOTE]

    High  OBP

    Clutch hits

     

    [/QUOTE]And don't forget, when he wasn't getting those clutch hits, he was hitting into double plays  !!!


    [/QUOTE]

    Not often in the clutch, and that's the price you pay for hitting the ball hard and not striking out much for a power hitter.

    BTW, you do know that your guys, Middlebrooks & Bogey hit into a DP 17-18% of the times he could have compared to 15% for Papi, right?

    In 2012, Papi's 8% GIDP rate was 3 points belwo the league norm. Considering how hard he hits the ball, that's amazing.

    Lavarnway 20%

    Middlebrooks 17%

    Iggy 13%

    Wow, all guys you praise up and down.

    Nava 11%

    Ellsbury 10%

    Cody Ross 10%

    A Gon 9%

    Papi 8%

     

    Keep bashing away BILL. Nothing this hero can do will ever be enough for you to truly appreciate. It's sad. Very very sad.

     

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    [/QUOTE]

    High  OBP

    Clutch hits

     

    [/QUOTE]And don't forget, when he wasn't getting those clutch hits, he was hitting into double plays  !!!


    [/QUOTE]

    You want to back that up with some sort of facts that show Ortiz was worse than other middle-of-the-order players in this regard, which is what you're implying.

    Just throwing crp out there doesn't make it true. It's posts like this why you get ridiculed.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    And to add on the DP comment

    The fact, Ortiz is better than a lot of power hitters in that regard. Ortiz has hit into 20 or more DP just twice in his career. Ortiz is way down the list career wise with 180 GIDP.

     If he plays three more years and averages 20 GIDP for those three years, his 240 GIDP would be tied for 41st with A-Rod (if he doesn't play anymore) and less than Cal Ripken (350), Hank Aaron (328, 3rd all time) and others including Yaz, Winfield, Kaline, Fank Robinson, Pujols, Willie Mays, Pete Rose, Stan Musial.

    Last I heard guys like Aaron and Mays could run a little.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And to add on the DP comment

    The fact, Ortiz is better than a lot of power hitters in that regard. Ortiz has hit into 20 or more DP just twice in his career. Ortiz is way down the list career wise with 180 GIDP.

     If he plays three more years and averages 20 GIDP for those three years, his 240 GIDP would be tied for 41st with A-Rod (if he doesn't play anymore) and less than Cal Ripken (350), Hank Aaron (328, 3rd all time) and others including Yaz, Winfield, Kaline, Fank Robinson, Pujols, Willie Mays, Pete Rose, Stan Musial.

    Last I heard guys like Aaron and Mays could run a little.

    [/QUOTE]

    Roy, 

    You might have missed my post earlier in response to Bill's pointless ramble To be exact Papi is 152nd on the career leaders. His career avg per year is about 12-13 per season which would leave him with about 215-220 if he plays three more years for 20 seasons. That would still leave him at 62nd on the list with so many great players and so many hall of famers well ahead of him, Bill's point is pointless. Like so many it would be great if folks would check stats before posting. 

    Cheers, Hetch

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to niton's comment:

     

    2.  anyone who uses the phrase "first ballot Hall of Famer" as if they differ in other ways should also lose voting rights.  They shuld also be stripped naked, painted purple, and let floating on a leaky raft in the Artic Circle with that FOX host Megyn Kelly and that guy who osts "What Would You Do".

    3.  Fifteen tries? That is stupid. 



    Greg Maddux is a  "first ballot Hall of Famer". And I think Papi should probably take 15 ballots like Rice did.

    What would I do then? I would kick John Quinones off the raft and row the 200 feet to the lovely coast of Alaska and then break out my blanky and bottle of champagne.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Papi is not a Hall of Fame player yet. But I think Beltran probably is. The difference is defense, base running and park factors.

    If Papi has a couple more good seasons, he might be able to squeeze in.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BMav. Show BMav's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    Bill, 

    Your comment is so pointless I won't bother countering. If you think all that Ortiz does is bash the ball it does show a true lack of knowledge of baseball. Please do not bother answering unless you've something intelligent to counter with. 

    Grasp this concept if you are capable. Intelligent commentary is based on more than ones ability to put words on a page. 

    Hetch

    [/QUOTE]Before you take me to TASK, im just saying that he is a great hitter, can't run, does not play a position so one is left to ask, besides hitting ,what other things has he done ?????  You can't tell me, that Im the only one on this board that is asking that ???


    [/QUOTE]

    OK, I'll break my own rule and respond

    He runs the bases better than you give him credit for or haven't you been paying attention. Running doesn't necessarily mean stolen bases. If he didn't run the bases, he wouldn't have as many doubles as he does or even the few triples.

    He can play 1B and is better at 1B than other guys in the pre-DH days who played a position out of necessity. Beyond that, few players in the Hall of Fame are in their because of their defense. Yes, there are some players where that helped.

    But most hitters are judged strictly on offensive numbers. Is Reggie Jackson in the Hall of Fame because of his defense. No. He's a .262 career hitter who is in the Hall of Fame because he hit 563 HRs.

    If Ortiz was to reach the numbers I posted on the previous page, he would have 506 HRs, 1,699 RBIs, 610 doubles, 1,448 runs. Jackson's numbers are 563 HRs, 1,702 RBIs, 463 doubles, 1,551 runs.

    And to add, Ortiz's career batting is more than 20 points higher, while Jackson set the career record for most strikeouts.

    So except for Jackson hitting about 60 more home runs, Ortiz's numbers would be similar or even better if you consider extra-base hits in total.

    Yet by your rationale, are you saying Jackson is a HOF simply because he played mediocre or worse defense?

    [/QUOTE]

    Comparing hitters from different era's is unfair. The late 60's to early 70's was a different game with different results. Jackson also hit in crappy hitters parks most of his career. Jackson was also a much better base runner.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from HailToTheKing. Show HailToTheKing's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Raise your hand if you think that Bill would be a fan of Ortiz if he were white.....for real.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?

    [/QUOTE]

     "it's hard for anyone aware of the value of on-base percentage and the magnitude of park effects and replacement level to look at these numbers and conclude he's a superior offensive performer than Edgar Martinez."

    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/11/7/5075850/edgar-martinez-and-david-ortiz

     
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