A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?

    [/QUOTE]

     "it's hard for anyone aware of the value of on-base percentage and the magnitude of park effects and replacement level to look at these numbers and conclude he's a superior offensive performer than Edgar Martinez."

    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/11/7/5075850/edgar-martinez-and-david-ortiz

    [/QUOTE]

    great post and a good read...both are worthy candidates. Edgar Imho should already be inducted.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to BMav's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Bill-806's comment:

    Hetch,  HOF is based on more than "just bashing" the ball .......... Please tell me/us what else he does ????

    Bill, 

    Your comment is so pointless I won't bother countering. If you think all that Ortiz does is bash the ball it does show a true lack of knowledge of baseball. Please do not bother answering unless you've something intelligent to counter with. 

    Grasp this concept if you are capable. Intelligent commentary is based on more than ones ability to put words on a page. 

    Hetch

    [/QUOTE]Before you take me to TASK, im just saying that he is a great hitter, can't run, does not play a position so one is left to ask, besides hitting ,what other things has he done ?????  You can't tell me, that Im the only one on this board that is asking that ???


    [/QUOTE]

    OK, I'll break my own rule and respond

    He runs the bases better than you give him credit for or haven't you been paying attention. Running doesn't necessarily mean stolen bases. If he didn't run the bases, he wouldn't have as many doubles as he does or even the few triples.

    He can play 1B and is better at 1B than other guys in the pre-DH days who played a position out of necessity. Beyond that, few players in the Hall of Fame are in their because of their defense. Yes, there are some players where that helped.

    But most hitters are judged strictly on offensive numbers. Is Reggie Jackson in the Hall of Fame because of his defense. No. He's a .262 career hitter who is in the Hall of Fame because he hit 563 HRs.

    If Ortiz was to reach the numbers I posted on the previous page, he would have 506 HRs, 1,699 RBIs, 610 doubles, 1,448 runs. Jackson's numbers are 563 HRs, 1,702 RBIs, 463 doubles, 1,551 runs.

    And to add, Ortiz's career batting is more than 20 points higher, while Jackson set the career record for most strikeouts.

    So except for Jackson hitting about 60 more home runs, Ortiz's numbers would be similar or even better if you consider extra-base hits in total.

    Yet by your rationale, are you saying Jackson is a HOF simply because he played mediocre or worse defense?

    [/QUOTE]

    Comparing hitters from different era's is unfair. The late 60's to early 70's was a different game with different results. Jackson also hit in crappy hitters parks most of his career. Jackson was also a much better base runner.

    [/QUOTE]

    I know that. And Jackson actually had a strong arm in RF. But the comparison was more of a general one than to make a case that one player was better than another. If Ortiz were to finish with the stats I listed, the compare favorable with Jacksons and for any era, the would be HOF worthy, especially if you took all the extra-base hits.

    And when you say much-better base-runner, if you're talking about base-stealing ability, then yeah, Jackson was better when he was in his 20s. But if you're talking about simply running the bases, going first to third, scoring from second, legging out doubles, Ortiz is very much underrated in that regard simply because he big. But Ortiz does hustle on the bases and very often is able to get that extra base.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
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    And to add on the DP comment

    The fact, Ortiz is better than a lot of power hitters in that regard. Ortiz has hit into 20 or more DP just twice in his career. Ortiz is way down the list career wise with 180 GIDP.

     If he plays three more years and averages 20 GIDP for those three years, his 240 GIDP would be tied for 41st with A-Rod (if he doesn't play anymore) and less than Cal Ripken (350), Hank Aaron (328, 3rd all time) and others including Yaz, Winfield, Kaline, Fank Robinson, Pujols, Willie Mays, Pete Rose, Stan Musial.

    Last I heard guys like Aaron and Mays could run a little.

    [/QUOTE]

    Roy, 

    You might have missed my post earlier in response to Bill's pointless ramble To be exact Papi is 152nd on the career leaders. His career avg per year is about 12-13 per season which would leave him with about 215-220 if he plays three more years for 20 seasons. That would still leave him at 62nd on the list with so many great players and so many hall of famers well ahead of him, Bill's point is pointless. Like so many it would be great if folks would check stats before posting. 

    Cheers, Hetch

    [/QUOTE]


    Yeah, I saw that after I posted. I started writing mypost, got sidetracked then finished it.

    And notice how bill never responded to theses posts on double plays from me, you or moon. Bill simply can't handle facts.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?

    [/QUOTE]

     "it's hard for anyone aware of the value of on-base percentage and the magnitude of park effects and replacement level to look at these numbers and conclude he's a superior offensive performer than Edgar Martinez."

    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/11/7/5075850/edgar-martinez-and-david-ortiz

    [/QUOTE]

    great post and a good read...both are worthy candidates. Edgar Imho should already be inducted.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, Edgar does belong, but what is missing from this article is the post season numbers...

          Ortiz  Martinez

    PA   357  148

    BA   .295 .266

    OBP .402 .365

    SLG .553 .508

    OPS .962 .873

    HR     17      8

    XBH  40     15

    RBI   60     24

    Edgar never made it to the World Series. Papi has played in 14 WS games:

    59 PA and 44 AB  with a line of .455  3  14  (.576 OBP/.795 SLG/ .1.372 OPS)

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    And to add on the DP comment

    The fact, Ortiz is better than a lot of power hitters in that regard. Ortiz has hit into 20 or more DP just twice in his career. Ortiz is way down the list career wise with 180 GIDP.

     If he plays three more years and averages 20 GIDP for those three years, his 240 GIDP would be tied for 41st with A-Rod (if he doesn't play anymore) and less than Cal Ripken (350), Hank Aaron (328, 3rd all time) and others including Yaz, Winfield, Kaline, Fank Robinson, Pujols, Willie Mays, Pete Rose, Stan Musial.

    Last I heard guys like Aaron and Mays could run a little.

    [/QUOTE]

    Roy, 

    You might have missed my post earlier in response to Bill's pointless ramble To be exact Papi is 152nd on the career leaders. His career avg per year is about 12-13 per season which would leave him with about 215-220 if he plays three more years for 20 seasons. That would still leave him at 62nd on the list with so many great players and so many hall of famers well ahead of him, Bill's point is pointless. Like so many it would be great if folks would check stats before posting. 

    Cheers, Hetch

    [/QUOTE]


    Yeah, I saw that after I posted. I started writing mypost, got sidetracked then finished it.

    And notice how bill never responded to theses posts on double plays from me, you or moon. Bill simply can't handle facts.

    [/QUOTE]

    Bill has suddenly gone quiet !!

    Hetch

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Beantowne's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to tom-uk's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?

    [/QUOTE]

     "it's hard for anyone aware of the value of on-base percentage and the magnitude of park effects and replacement level to look at these numbers and conclude he's a superior offensive performer than Edgar Martinez."

    http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/11/7/5075850/edgar-martinez-and-david-ortiz

    [/QUOTE]

    great post and a good read...both are worthy candidates. Edgar Imho should already be inducted.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, Edgar does belong, but what is missing from this article is the post season numbers...

          Ortiz  Martinez

    PA   357  148

    BA   .295 .266

    OBP .402 .365

    SLG .553 .508

    OPS .962 .873

    HR     17      8

    XBH  40     15

    RBI   60     24

    Edgar never made it to the World Series. Papi has played in 14 WS games:

    59 PA and 44 AB  with a line of .455  3  14  (.576 OBP/.795 SLG/ .1.372 OPS)

    [/QUOTE]

    Papi's post season numbers and three rings will certainly help him when his time for selection comes. I would think that both would one day be enshrined but the anti DH faction of the writers association (national leaguers and old timers) might well keep both out...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Papi's post season numbers and three rings will certainly help him when his time for selection comes. I would think that both would one day be enshrined but the anti DH faction of the writers association (national leaguers and old timers) might well keep both out...

     

    I gave up caring about baseball awards long ago. They are a joke.

    No MVP for Pedro.

    Jeter with Gold Gloves

    Palmeiro wins a gold glove without even playing a position.

    The HOF vote is a little more respectable, but still is too political for my taste.

     

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Bill was crushed on this post with his double play argument deconstructed. A great example of how worthless some "opinions" are when they have no basis in reality.

    "The DH is a MLB position. He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?"

    bingo. 

    I do think the PED question, fair or not, will keep Papi out, but once other PED guys get in (e.g. Clemens, Bonds), then I think Papi WILL get in as the first DH. The latest season and postseason cemented it.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Yes, Edgar does belong, but what is missing from this article is the post season numbers...

          Ortiz  Martinez

    PA   357  148

    BA   .295 .266

    OBP .402 .365

    SLG .553 .508

    OPS .962 .873

    HR     17      8

    XBH  40     15

    RBI   60     24

    Edgar never made it to the World Series. Papi has played in 14 WS games:

    59 PA and 44 AB  with a line of .455  3  14  (.576 OBP/.795 SLG/ .1.372 OPS)

    [/QUOTE]  

    Years of BBRef

    oWAR over 2:

    DO  9       EM  13

    oWAR over 3:

    DO  8    EM  11

    IMO DO will need two more strong seasons to be the best DH ever.

    HOF, I'm agnostic.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from youkillus. Show youkillus's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF


    Throw out the numbers! Ortiz's walk off jobs are his ticket to Cooperstown. Dig into the records, and find a guy with more cachet. If there is one, that guy is a HOF'er. To me, the HOF is to celebrate greatness, those moments that transfixed the fans, that made everyone realize that, "they can't believe what they just saw". Whether it's Mays running down drives in the outfield, Gibson limping around the bases, or Fisk dinging the foul pole, that's what the HOF is for. Ortiz is in, with his own wing too.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to HailToTheKing's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Raise your hand if you think that Bill would be a fan of Ortiz if he were white.....for real.

    [/QUOTE]

    Absolutely yes. Thankfully Ortiz isn't Mexican too.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Papi's post season numbers and three rings will certainly help him when his time for selection comes. I would think that both would one day be enshrined but the anti DH faction of the writers association (national leaguers and old timers) might well keep both out...

     

    I gave up caring about baseball awards long ago. They are a joke.

    No MVP for Pedro.

    Jeter with Gold Gloves

    Palmeiro wins a gold glove without even playing a position.

    The HOF vote is a little more respectable, but still is too political for my taste.

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]
    I too don't put much stock into individual player awards.. the gold glove and the manner in which a player is selectedvhad always been suspect, rarely does the best defensive player win the award. Unlike the batting tittle or the homerun king where the numbers can be acurately measured. The MVP, Gold Glove and now the Cy Young awards all are awarded based on the subjective criteria of each voter. 

    The HOF vote is and has been perhaps the most abused privilege of all of the writer nominated awards. Starting with the faction among that group that still holds on to the notion that no one is worthy of first ballot consideration. In my mind it's black or white your worthy based on your career achievements or not. Part of the issue lies in the number of electies each year, and the reliance on numbers that are effected greatly by the manner in which the game has evolved. As such it's difficult to have a one size fits all qualifier. Recently the steroid issue has really muddied the waters and given many writers pause in terms of supporting a players candidacy due to having either tested positive or in some cases being suspected of use. 

    What I will say is that each year Cooperstown and it's chamber of commerace rely heavily on the revenues generated by the week leading up to the ceremony. As such it is incumbent that each year the writers fulfill thier obligation to enshrine the most worthy. 

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to Bill-806's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bill was crushed on this post with his double play argument deconstructed. A great example of how worthless some "opinions" are when they have no basis in reality.

    "The DH is a MLB position. He is the best DH to ever play the position. If a DH does not belong in the HOF, then what's the point in having one at all?"

    bingo. 

    I do think the PED question, fair or not, will keep Papi out, but once other PED guys get in (e.g. Clemens, Bonds), then I think Papi WILL get in as the first DH. The latest season and postseason cemented it.

    [/QUOTE] B I N G O  DAT !!!!  B-806 could not say what "you just said" for fear of being DEMONIZED !!!  Thank you  BTS for putting a concerning fact on the table !!!


    [/QUOTE]

    You "demonize" yourself BILL.

    Nobody has to do it for you.

    You pounce on anything and everything anit-Papi.

    We all know why.

    Hail to the King, SNML and many of us "raise our hands".

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Sorry disagree about DH, getting into Cooperstown. Fielding is huge, and it effects your at bats. Nothing wrong with what your beliefs are.
    I can only think of guys like Mike Schmidt, not playing 3rd base and just DH'ing, the numbers he would have put up. WOW! Just concentrating on one thing when you come to the ballpark.
    Its just my opinion, nothing wrong with yours. But I, might disagree.

    Manny Mota should be in it too, probably best Pinch hitter, ever.
    I'd be very mad if I was HOF, and a DH got in. Not knowing what I could do if I just hit the ball.
    Can you imagine Ted Williams as a DH.
    Yeah he had a bad year only batted .380  41 HRS and 130 rbi's

    Another thing how about injuries? Your absolutely more inclined to get hurt when your on the field. Arm, legs, shoulder, ankle... walls ,whatever, your on the battlefield. Could end a career.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to djcbuffum's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Beltran is also just one of eight players all-time to have 300 HR and 300 steals. Papi has like, what, 10 career steals?

    Beltran's case is strengthened by the fact that he was a great all-around player with both speed and power. Papi has a case for the HOF, but he shouldn't be compared to Beltran. Papi needs to be compared to other full-time DHs.

    [/QUOTE]

    Steals?  This is the HOF they are talking about, not Fantasy Baseball's best Roto team.

    The guy was in the Top 5 for MVP 5 times.  How many HOFers dont have that?  Plus, so many HOFers get credit (or blame) for having (or not) a World Series ring... when sometimes all they did was go along for the ride.  This guy was a massive contributor for 3 World Series Championships.

    He's HOF, all day long.  If he's ignored because of the DH, given the weak sauce in there now, the honor means nothing anyway.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from crazyworldoftroybrown. Show crazyworldoftroybrown's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Nope, winning a World Series does not make you great. He's good not GREAT.

    Why doesn't Ted Simmons not belong in the HOF?

    I'm thinking Cecil Cooper should be in the mix, too. .298 career BA should help.

    Is Bill Buckner in the HOF? At the age of 35 got over 200 hits. No DH for that man, played 1st base.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from HankukSox. Show HankukSox's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    Much as I like Ortiz, I think all this conversation has done, for me, is to convince me that the guys voting for the HoF need to hurry the heck up and just put Edgar Martinez in the hall.  I think that I kind of forgot how good he really was, until this conversation prompted me to remember.  Guy should be in.  Ortiz, not yet.  As for the original question, Ortiz not in yet in my mind.  He just has nothing that makes his career absolutely spectacular.  But I might be one of those hard nose guys, where even Beltran is a maybe, at best, for me.  Then again, as I said, I do want Martinez in the hall.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    HAIL to SOFTY & the day he returns !!!!

     

     

    Yes BILL, hail to bigotry!

     

    Get it out in the open.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    bill is a racist. his posts -current and past- are proof enough.

     

    on to the point of the thread.... i am extremely surprised no one has mentioned the actual criteria of getting into the hall aside from numbers on the field. "character, integrity and sportsmanship". three things that David "big papi" Ortiz embodies. He is one of the more beloved players among his peers in all of baseball. no matter where the sox play or who the sox play, there are multiple members of the opposing team coming out to greet papi and recieve a big hug. he gives back to the community of Boston as well as his homeland and the Roberto clemente award he received proves that (to say nothing of the efforts by him and the rest of the team in the aftermath of marathon monday). The weight of this criteria is up for debate but they ARE taken into account. that is an undeniable fact after the last round of voting.

    onto the numbers.... if he retired today, his regular season numbers would be borderline HoF worthy. if you include PS numbers as well as his 3 rings and title of DH GOAT i think he makes it.

    if he plays for another 2-3 years with decent-solid production then that only further solidifies his place in the HoF. i do not think the PED rumors (i hesitate to even call them "rumors" because there was only one whisper of it that was extremely vague. A tweet from "the Onion" has more validity than the claim that papi was on PEDs.) will affect him for the reasons stated above.

     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from slasher9. Show slasher9's posts

    Re: A case for David Ortiz to the HOF

    In response to nhsteven's comment:

    his biggest obstacle is the PED whispers



    THIS.  because of the 2003 report and it being unknown exactly what he is rumored to have failed for...he will never get in.  i believe the rumors are enough for the writers to keep him out.

    my personal feelings are that Mr. Ortiz is a HOFer.  but i am a Sox fan and have been paying attention for the last oh 10 or 11 seasons......and some of his heroic exploits are the stuff of Hollywood.....

     
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