A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Katz: You crack me up. I mean this in a funny sense. You seem to take everything I say about Tek and put it under a Nuclear-powered magnifying glass. Re-read my statement. I said I noticed the Paps/Tek dialog too. I've seen it many times.

    Where did I say it was friendly? Where did I say it was anything?
    I just mentioned it because I never see any real rapport between Paps and Salty.
    I really didn't read anything into it, other than the norm. The norm being what a battery will often say, like: "Man, you were lucky on that last one (pertinent in this situation as Tek's outside call was not executed. The pitch ran right back into the hitter's sweet spot)), - to which Paps might reply, "Yeah. Damn thing kept riding two feet on me!".

    If you have MLB, check out previous games where Tek catches Paps. You'll see similar.

    A perfectionist like Paps won't wear a game-face smile. He's concerned about what didn't go well. If his two-seamer is catching too much of the plate, he has to know if Tek noticed anything in his footing or delivery. Beckett talks Tek's ear off when he's in-between starts. It has to do with experience and the knowledge that accompanies it.

    Salty is not gonna get this kind of feedback until he's proven he can log the frames and be the part of positive results over and over again.

    To AMP:  Hill will be more effective as an unknown in the A.L. - given his altered delivery. The idea is to use him in the right way and take advantage of it.
    The hope is that Jenks will contribute and lighten the load on Bard/Hill, making all more effective. The bridge to Paps has been shaky not just because of Bard/Jenks, but because Tito didn't see Hill for what he is. I can understand the hesitance given Hill's a reclamation project. But man alive, you gotta be blind not to see his stuff and how hitters are reacting to it. 

    Morales looks like an interesting addition. I don't see him cutting it in high-leverage situations. But he could be decent in 6th-7th inning lefty specialist and I'm sure will be used to eat innings with Atchison.  Any lefty who can gun it at 95 MPH gets my attention. Reminds me some of Billy Wagner, but different in stature.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II:
    I can't, in my worse nightmare, even imagine having to bat against a guy like Hill whose ball to lefties comes in from 1st base somewhere.  And, he's effective against righties too.  This guy has got to be a tremendous asset to us. My only concern is over-use where MLB batters will figure him out and start feeling comfortable over time.  I think it's critical that Tito uses him correctly.  What that is?  I don't know.  Because of this, I wonder how often he should be used. Okajima was initially tremendously effective.  Eventually, it wore off.  Whether or not it was mechanical, I don't know.  One thing going for Hill is that besides throwing strikes, his velocity is greater than Okajima's was. Hence, I'm cautiously optimistic. 
    Posted by ampoule
    It is tempting to think that league got used to the deception that Oki's motion created, because it is hard to pick the ball up in that motion. When you look at how his stats slowly declined, familarity seems like an easy answer. But teams that have never seen him before have had paralell success to the rest of the league each year.

    My guess it is command and whether that is even mechanical per say is hard to qualify. After all Okajima for his first two years in MLB was a way better pitcher than he ever was in Japan and that just doesn't happen, the KZone is smaller, the ball harder to grip and make move here and the hitters are just better overall.

    So maybe what we saw was Okajima hit his peak when he first hit MLB and then began a slow decline as the innings mounted where his command and movement just fell off a little. For what would have been termed in the old school days as a junk ball pitcher a little less command and a little less movement is a deadly cocktail. 
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II:
    Katz : You crack me up. I mean this in a funny sense. You seem to take everything I say about Tek and put it under a Nuclear-powered magnifying glass. Re-read my statement. I said I noticed the Paps/Tek dialog too. I've seen it many times. Where did I say it was friendly? Where did I say it was anything? I just mentioned it because I never see any real rapport between Paps and Salty. I really didn't read anything into it, other than the norm. The norm being what a battery will often say, like: "Man, you were lucky on that last one (pertinent in this situation as Tek's outside call was not executed. The pitch ran right back into the hitter's sweet spot)), - to which Paps might reply, "Yeah. Damn thing kept riding two feet on me!". If you have MLB, check out previous games where Tek catches Paps. You'll see similar. A perfectionist like Paps won't wear a game-face smile. He's concerned about what didn't go well. If his two-seamer is catching too much of the plate, he has to know if Tek noticed anything in his footing or delivery. Beckett talks Tek's ear off when he's in-between starts. It has to do with experience and the knowledge that accompanies it. Salty is not gonna get this kind of feedback until he's proven he can log the frames and be the part of positive results over and over again. To AMP :  Hill will be more effective as an unknown in the A.L. - given his altered delivery. The idea is to use him in the right way and take advantage of it. The hope is that Jenks will contribute and lighten the load on Bard/Hill, making all more effective. The bridge to Paps has been shaky not just because of Bard/Jenks, but because Tito didn't see Hill for what he is. I can understand the hesitance given Hill's a reclamation project. But man alive, you gotta be blind not to see his stuff and how hitters are reacting to it.  Morales looks like an interesting addition. I don't see him cutting it in high-leverage situations. But he could be decent in 6th-7th inning lefty specialist and I'm sure will be used to eat innings with Atchison.  Any lefty who can gun it at 95 MPH gets my attention. Reminds me some of Billy Wagner, but different in stature.
    Posted by harness
    Well my bad. Taken in the same context of the pitchers not trusting Salty I wrongly assumed context. I didn't exactly see that as Pap just pounding on himself to Tek after a couple of hangers but that is me, maybe he was. Let's leave it as my bad.

    On Morales I personally don't think they see him as an inning eater. I think they see him at least in the short run as a true LH specialist, the kind of guy you ask to get a LH and then go get him. His issue seems to be walks not giving up hits. He may well eat innings but I assume that you mean that when we see him doing that it is really good or really bad news for the RS.

    The guys on Baseball Tonight talked about something I sort of knew but hadn't taken notice of and that was the number of quality LH starters that are power pitchers has never been higher in MLB as a percentage of the starters. When you think of it that way, Theo has been building his system and his MLB trade paddling against the current.

    BTW I think some folks are writing off jenks and Wheeler too early just because they pitched hurt until it hurt (try to play through pain until the performance makes you address it). Jenks could be a killer guy as a late inning pitcher and Wheeler had been so consistent for so long it is hard to just write them off (at least for me) based on short sample sets which were accumlated prior to DL trips. And in Jenks case the length of the DL trip tells us it was a serious issue. I don't doubt they found a mechanical flaw, mechanics almost always alter to compensate when a player is pitching around pain.

    This could still round out to be an excellent and deep bullpen.

    Still watching Sportscenter and being an equal opportunity kind of guy (stinkin' bleeding heart, tree hugging, socialist pig that I am) I must mention that Coco Crisp had another web gem tonight.  
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I believe Oki spent much of his career in Japan as a starter. He saw right off how much better the competition was here and developed a great changeup. Kudos to him for doing it so quickly.

    He came up with another new pitch this year, but the FO had seen enough regression with this human 3-2 count to replace the lefty with one who's younger and throws much harder.

    Personally, I'd like to have seen Oki in more critical situations, as his new cutter was getting a lot of swings and misses. I think the little he lost in command (as Katz alluded - a deadly cocktail- for one who has less margin for error) may have been compensated for to a degree. I think this 2011 Oki could still be effective in the lesser N.L. An alert GM will capitalize on this.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    And Crisp, according to a bigoted poster who shall remain nameless, was supposed to be "selling insurance on the streets of LA".

    Okijima is a true class act. He cleared waivers because of the size of his contract as a middle relief pen profile and the strategy from many interested GM's was that he would turn down the minors assignment and the Red Sox would release him so that he could picked up for the minimum. Oki accepted the minor league assigment (he could have refused and become a FA or force Theo to put trade him and pay part of the contract or keep him on the MLB roster in a semi-mop-up role), something good ole boys like Wakefield would never agree to. In fact, Wakefield has already said he doesn't like his role (no role unless he's in the rotation which he'd never last in and which should be invested in younger talent) and would consider pitching for the Rays. Oki has never complained about his role.

    Slav is one of the Japenese player haters, see his comments about Oki, which are quite false because of his lack of knowledge about baseball rules on DFA and waiver of veteran players.

    Detroit Tigers slugger Gary Sheffield declared Okajima "one of the most impressive lefties I've ever seen" with "stuff I have never seen before from anybody."[17] Former Yankees manager Joe Torre called Okajima "unhittable".[34] Wiki

    Okajima finished strong last season after a terrible first half and has allowed opponents to bat just .233 with a .643 OPS in 8.1 innings so far this season

    I started the season down in the Minor Leagues, so I know I had to regain the team’s confidence in my pitching,” Okajima told reporters through an interpreter. “It is my first time in this situation so I’m not sure of what happens next.”

    That said, Okajima did not begrudge the Sox’ decisions, and suggested that he did not regret re-signing this winter with the only club for whom he’s pitched since coming to the U.S. in 2007.

    Having re-signed with Boston during the offseason, it is disappointing that this is happening but signing here was not a mistake,” said Okajima. “I am very grateful to the opportunity the Red Sox have given me over five years. --Weei

    Only the good ole boys get to squat on the MLB roster.

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II : Well my bad. Taken in the same context of the pitchers not trusting Salty I wrongly assumed context. I didn't exactly see that as Pap just pounding on himself to Tek after a couple of hangers but that is me, maybe he was. Let's leave it as my bad. On Morales I personally don't think they see him as an inning eater. I think they see him at least in the short run as a true LH specialist, the kind of guy you ask to get a LH and then go get him. His issue seems to be walks not giving up hits. He may well eat innings but I assume that you mean that when we see him doing that it is really good or really bad news for the RS. The guys on Baseball Tonight talked about something I sort of knew but hadn't taken notice of and that was the number of quality LH starters that are power pitchers has never been higher in MLB as a percentage of the starters. When you think of it that way, Theo has been building his system and his MLB trade paddling against the current. BTW I think some folks are writing off jenks and Wheeler too early just because they pitched hurt until it hurt (try to play through pain until the performance makes you address it). Jenks could be a killer guy as a late inning pitcher and Wheeler had been so consistent for so long it is hard to just write them off (at least for me) based on short sample sets which were accumlated prior to DL trips. And in Jenks case the length of the DL trip tells us it was a serious issue. I don't doubt they found a mechanical flaw, mechanics almost always alter to compensate when a player is pitching around pain. This could still round out to be an excellent and deep bullpen. Still watching Sportscenter and being an equal opportunity kind of guy (stinkin' bleeding heart, tree hugging, socialist pig that I am) I must mention that Coco Crisp had another web gem tonight.  
    Posted by fivekatz


    That last paragraph was good. I've noticed you are showing a very clever sarcastic wit this year. It's a welcome addition to what you already bring to the table.
    Funny how posters show more of themselves as they feel a bit more comfortable in their surroundings. Now, if You'll just start one thread...
    Tongue out

    Moon
    has shown poetic genius that he kept hid for years!

    Unfortunately, it can work the other way. Two years ago, Softy was one of the finest posters here, IMO. But he's so into defending himself and the constant rhetoric, it's hard to do anything but mock or ignore him at this point.

    I must admit I'm losing some interest in the forum this year, but this thread is truly a Godsend.

    Back to baseball, I'm not so sure Jenks was pitching hurt. He never mentioned it and nobody else did. His injury may have had more to do with his physique. But the time off allows him a fresh window. He has the stuff to cut it, but his command has to improve. He facing better in a tougher venue.

    The Wheeler "injury" was even denied by him! I don't think he's gonna be what the team saw in him. Jenks is the best bet.

    My take on Morales eating innings isn't a slight on him. It's more to get work and refine his stuff. He looks like a flyball pitcher - and that doesn't bode well in Coors.
    He is tough on lefties, which is why he's here. I love the idea of two good lefties out of the pen. Oki in 2007 was invaluable...and irreplaceable.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Here are Oki's outings, after coming off the DL last year through his DFA this year:

    8-29-10  .2 inning 1 Hits 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 1 K 1 BB 0 HR

    9-02-10  .1 inning 0 Hits 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 0 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-04-10   1 inning 1 Hits 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 1 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-05-10  .1 inning 1 Hits 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 0 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-06-10   1 inning 0 Hits 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 1 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-08-10   1 inning 1 Hits 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 0 K 1 BB 0 HR

    9-11-10   .1 inning 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs  0 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-14-10   .2 inning 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 1 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-18-10   2 inning 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 0 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-20-10   1 inning 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 0 K 0 BB 0 HR

    9-21-10   .2 inning 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 2 K 0 BB 0 HR

    11 straight outings 9 Innings 4 Hits 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs  6 K 2 BB 0 HR

    9-25-10   1 inning 1 Hit 1 Runs 1 Earned Runs 1 K 0 BB  1 HR

    9-26-10   .1 inning 2 Hit 1 Runs 1 Earned Runs 0 K 2 BB 0 HR

    9-29-10   1 inning 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 1 K 0 BB 0 HR

    10-02-10  1.1 inning 1 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs 2 K 1 BB 0 HR

    15 outings 12.2 Innings 8 Hits 2 Runs 2 Earned Runs 10 K 5 BB 1 HR

    2010 post DL ERA  1.47 WHIP 0.574

    2011 Outings:

    4-19-11  .2 Innings 2 Hit 3 Runs 3 Earned Runs  1 K 1 BB 0 HR

    4-26-11 .1 Innings 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs  0 K 0 BB 0 HR

    4-29-11 1 Innings 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs  0 K 2 BB 0 HR

    4-30-11 1.2 Innings 0 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs  1 K 0 BB 0 HR

    5-02-11 .2 Innings 1 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs  0 K 0 BB 0 HR

    5-04-11  2 Innings 2 Hit 1 Runs 1 Earned Runs  1 K 0 BB 0 HR

    5-09-11  2 Innings 2 Hit 0 Runs 0 Earned Runs  3 K 2 BB 0 HR

         8.1 Innings 7 Hit 4 Runs 4 Earned Runs 5 K 5 BB 0 HR 4.32 ERA WHIP 1.48

    22 outings since coming off DL:

                21 Innings 15 Hits 6 Runs 6 Earned Runs 15 K BB 10 1 HR

    ERA 2.57  WHIP 1.19

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I congratulate the new poster for having gone through over a year's posts to find that but you have slightly embellished. Of course I am embellishing because we all know you are just visiting between banishments.

    But what I said was he returned to his native LA to sell insurance which by the way Jim Everett former QB of the Rams does here too (BTW he is white), I know this because my company sold his company business services which is what brought the metaphor of what a jock would do after retirement. My mistake was assuming nobody picked Coco up but in he was on the DL at the time (what a shock) and I hadn't noticed Oakland went bargain shopping. BTW see I actually can say I was wrong and I also happen to think that Coco is a bargain. 

    As for the bigot comment, nobody except newbees fall for your febble attempts at Jedi mind tricks. Anybody who knows your history knows how disingenuous you are on this topic.

    End of taking your bait and providing you entertainment. You have returned to ignore until the mods catch up with again once you go over the line, again. Odds are it will be soon and you will return again. 

    Until then cheers!
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    How many of these innings were high-leverage?
    Atchison does the same thing - and does it longer.

    Wake can go longer than Atchison - but Wake is a starter.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    You have returned to ignore until the mods catch up with again once you go over the line, again

    I've never gone over the line. I have made comments that are the subject of PC censorship. If I were to stop doing that, I'd be a drone, just like most posters on this thread.

    I commend your partial contrition on Crisp, though the spin on the streets of LA comment is quite a reach. Crisp should have been traded at the end of 2008, for the bugaboo "birthers". 

    Speaking of selling insurance, insurance products are frequently a contract that has so much fineprint loopholes that premiums are paid for what is de facto no coverage. When the government got into the business of "insurance" in the medical and hospital services business, it destroyed what had been a consumer driven market. Government bureaucracy is a self-expanding system that has virtually zero accountability. Of course, the only insurance premiums I pay are for government mandated auto insurance. I've never been in an auto accident, much less caused one. I pay for all the lunatic drivers who have no insurance or no sense, because the government says so. At some point, fools will realize that government is usually the problem, not the solution to the problem. Some problems have no man-made solution, but that won't stop fools from selling it on the campaign trail. 

    I've gone over the line, shame;)

     
     
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Almost all of Oki's good innings of work, which are most, were "low leverage" situations where the score was within a run or two when he came in with his mop. Contrast that to Wakefield, who has excelled in his many "high leverage" situations while waiting for a starter DL. This is why Oki has been asked to go to the minors, and he has accepted like a good Japenese boy.

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Funny, I recall many of those outings were when the game was out of hand.
    Your Wake hate again does you in. Wake is a starter who is taking varied roles.

    Oki is a reliever that is no longer trusted in any high-level situation unless he's the last man standing. Same goes for Wake. But Oki can't start.

    I told you weeks ago Oki was blocking Hill. Wake isn't blocking anybody who's proven at the M.L. level to be more productive. Hill is proving it now. Oki got a life with the injuries.

    As I said back in March, the RedSox didn't do OKI any favors by re-signing him.
    He could have latched on to an N.L. team and been more useful, instead of floundering in the minors.

    Stop with the bigotry and admit his regression.


    What am I saying??? You'll end up a democrat before that ever happens.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    There is no "regression" in those outings. The "can't be trusted" is meaningless. Hill is a good ole boy who most certainly won't be trusted once other AL teams get a few more looks at this reclamaiton project.

    Oki had a 2007 that Wakefield could only dream of. Your Japanese bigotry is very sad. Wakefield is in decline, which is revealed by his mop-up no trust duty and ERA average since the last half of 2009. He's old, and a guy who is a joke in the pen and who will break down as a starter. He's blocking Miller, Doubrant and Wally, the mascot.

    Admit that Wakefield is old, fat and a zero trust good ole boy. He's only hanging around because people like you identify with his fat belly and his ethnic background. You need tolerance training for Japenese players, and a US Department of Justice hate crime would be appropriate in your case. If you are Democrat, bigotry is encouraged, so you are safe until trillion dollar exponential debt increaser has finished turning this decadent Nation into a European Socialist People's Republic.

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    "Can't be trusted" is meaningless?
    If Tito trusted Hill a couple of weeks back as he does now, the Sox would have a 3-4 game cushion.

    UR bigotry crutch is splintering. Calling Wake fat shades UR stance. Weak, cheap tactic diverting how once again you come up short. Oki has been regressing for years. His mettle has turned to aluminum. Hence his usage in garbage time.

    UR prejudice against "good ole boys is appalling!
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Great exchange between harness and katz. It's too bad that annoying gnat keeps buzzing by from time to time.

    Not taking the racist bait from the racist clown.

    I suggest we all keep this thread not responding to the clown. After all, this is the "realistic thread".
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    At some point, fools will realize that government is usually the problem, not the solution to the problem. Some problems have no man-made solution, but that won't stop fools from selling it on the campaign trail.

    Funny, we agree on something..Ive been saying this for years. We may be on the other side of the world on baseball/Red sox, but Im with you on this one...But thats for another board...
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Admit that Wakefield is old, fat and a zero trust good ole boy. He's only hanging around because people like you identify with his fat belly and his ethnic background.

    and his eating innings while doing well in a starters role this year, saving the Sox azz a few times..being white has nothing to do with it..Thats just a plain dumbazz comment and uncalled for. Theres enough real race issues in the world without you stirring the pot..
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Famous Softy quote..."I've never gone over the line!".

    Tongue outSurprisedLaughing
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    My last alliteration on this topic:
    Ignoble idiot incarnate.  Ignored indefinitely.

    This is the first time I use the ignore button in this forum ... and I promise to do so for every one of his predictable future incarnations.  Hope you all will too or at least stop responding.  This clown derails too many good discussions with his tired act.  

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    We are now the best hitting team in the AL unless Cleveland comes up with around 12 hits in the next 3 innings! Did we play a game today or was it batting practice!

    If Salty keeps hitting HR balls, including one from the left side today, I'm going to have to admit and error! Cool

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Remy just said it must be batting practice also. We are apparently channeling!
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I just started watching the game. Were Crawford's hits solid? I notice that even Sutton has 3 hits! He appears to be solid deep depth.

    GO Sox!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Boom I am taking nothing from this game except that the Indians just brought a guy off of the Dl that had nothing and that the end of the bullpen is...the end of their bullpen.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Wouldn't it be great if Wake and Aceves started putting up more zeros and we go on a huge Colorado Rockies type run to finish the season!

    Yes Matilda, sometimes I am an optomist!
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Nothing is better while working than listening to a nail bitter on WEEI with the RS clinging to a 14-0 lead.
     
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