A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from canetime. Show canetime's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II:
    [QUOTE]Wakefield doesn't pitch like CC. If he did, he could weigh as much as he likes. Wake also isn't in his early 30's. High keyed guys can also be good guys, southpaw. I agree with the rest of your take, with the exception that Wakefield has any value in the pen. Wakefield should be handled just like Oki, who didn't deserve that. Unlikely any team would pay Wakefield and would just wait to see if he declines the minor league assignment and becomes a FA. What better way to see who is a good guy. If Wakefield clears waivers, most likely, he could then be parked in AAA for a call-up (heaven help). AAA, the NL, or retired is Wakefield should have been since the end of 2009.
    Posted by SoxSoldRed[/QUOTE]

    WAKE,second great game in a row.i hope you got to watch it.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jidgef. Show jidgef's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I just don't get it. We are on a great streak, scoring two touchdowns in two straight games, getting solid pitching, everyone is contributing, and we're letting one knucklehead make this thread about Wakefield and whether or not he deserves a roster spot. Well, he proved again tonight that the Sox braintrust knows more about this game than the man of many names.

    And I don't want to focus on the 25th roster spot while everyone is on fire, but doesn't Drew Sutton make more sense, and fill a greater role on this team, than DMac? Mac was a godsend last year but just doesn't seem to be a fit right now, especially with Reddick a phone call away for a long-term need. Sutton can play as many positions as Bill Hall and is a switch-hitter who seems to have some pop. Reddick has been solid since his call-up but can benefit more by playing regularly rather than platooning here in Boston.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    OK, I'll admit it. My guy Crawful (Crawbust was just too unimaginative) didn't got 2 for 5 with a HR and great diving catch but I was busy today and couldn't keep up with the posts.

    But I tried and my useless, jitter bug, rag armed, NL profile guy didn't do badly in the face of of a poor effort of posting unfounded insults about him. 2-3 with HR wasn't bad.

    But I can and should expect more from a guy with a bloated contract and a bad swing. Trust me I will ignore everything good he has done in the last week and start three threads about his getting picked off and almost losing a fly in the lights. With enough work I will be able to get the wastoid up to Bellsbury pathetic MLB steals lead.

    With Wake being so masterfully trashed he that fat, over the hill waste of a roster spot gave the RS 7 innings of 5 hit - 2 run pitching (I can't take credit for that I am sorry to say).

    I think the rest of you should stop looking like you know anything about baseball. Get a little more daring. It is easy to single out a lead-off hitter who has a .299 BA, 6 HR, 27 RBI and is tied for MLB lead in SB. Get some guts and get on Adrian Gonzalez. If some of you would stop being so selfish this guy could win the triple crown. You know something like A-Bum????

    Get with program people! Theeo is an idiot, Bellsbury and Lowrie are weak no pop NL profiles, my guy Crawful is bust, Wake is a waste of a roster spot. But two guys posting drivel isn't enough. Get off your rears and pick a RS any RS and trash them. But remember Francona and Epstein are taken.




     
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I didn't like AGONE's attitude on those last at bats. I know how hard it is to keep this stuff in, but he was showing that poor, near-sighted ump up even with such subtlety. I don't know how Theo could ink a guy like this!

    Jid, I recently posted similar regarding "the knucklehead" you speak of, but I must say I'm really enjoying - and have long awaited - this side of Katz. You have to admit the wit is good.

    On the serious side, the master baiter, by making some of us focus on areas we called wrong, is ultimately bringing out in us the same dementia. He bashes players he knows we back. Thus the constant attention to one who disparately craves it.

    UR right. He's become the center-piece, not the fact the RedSox are sniffing 1st after a horrid start. Unfortunately, the banned don't remain banned, so it's hard to ignore a boil the size of a football.

    FWIW: Let's enjoy the level the team is playing on. This is a part of the schedule they are taking advantage of. Hard to make the playoffs if you can't beat teams in weaker divisions. Wake is getting closer to 200 wins. That's pretty cool.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Can't think of a single lie. He tried to close Guantanamo but congress wouldn't vote for it. I honestly do not know of any lies he had control over.

    Boom, I didn't mean to start anything political, I was just using language softy can understand. He's having trouble with reading comprehension these days. I knew he couldn't misunderstand that one.

    In short: the list of lies is gigantic as with GW before him, BC, before him, and on and on.... Let's leave it at that.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II



    God, we should be tickled to death the way we're playing.  It wasn't long ago that I posted that if we won ten in a row everything bad would be forgotten.  Well, I think we're close enough.  I'm happy as hell that everyone seems to have gelled together.  We're playing as a team now.

    I was impressed with Reddick.  It's obvious so far that his plate discipline has dramatically improved.  Let's hope it's not an illusion.

    It's going to break my heart to break up the present rotation when Lackey comes back.  Like some of us have mentioned before that 'if the clock ain't broke, don't fix it'.  Let Aceves and Wakefield compete against each other until someone loses it, then bring Lackey back.  But, for the good of the team, don't break up a winning thing.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I don't see any sense in urgency on the part of the FO to push Lackey.
    These things have a way of working themselves out.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Personally, when Lackey can hit 92 on the gun again I'll consider it!

    Until then Wake stays in the rotation, and Aceves!

    In reality i know Lackey gets his spot back within 1-2 rehab starts in all likelihood and one of these 2 guys will eventually turn into a pumpkin. My point is at least let one of them have 1 bad start before taking them out of the rotation. Milk it while it lasts. 

    What is Lackey's ERA again? 8.01? 53 hits in 39 innings pitched? Wow!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Lackey's numbers are awful.  The only ray of hope is that he did have a run of 3 good games in the middle of his 7 outings.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Lackey should be the long man until someone flounders or gets hurt.

    One problem my be that there may not be many innings in that role if the staff keeps going as is. He needs inning to get back in the groove.

    The real debate will begin as soon as Wake or Aceves have a bad game. Is it fair to them to feel like it's one bad game and out? Do you give them 2 bad games? 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I would work Lackey back in slowly (2-4) rehab starts, and give them both(Wake/Aceves) another start or 2. Like Harness said, these things have a way of working themselves out...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Lackey may struggle even in AAA ball. this may be a non issue for a while.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Well on the subject of Lackey I think we may just be living in the moment, that is why I referenced Kason Gabbard earlier a "small sample set RS Nation moment". Another one was the great debate whether Julian Tavarez or Tim Wakefield should start when Schilling got healthy. These things just go on and on.

    The RS have luxury right now of getting Lackey right. They don't have to rush him out there if he still feels soreness or if they question his command in his rehab assignment. The can be deliberate and I am sure they will be. But IMO they will put Lackey back into the rotation as soon as he is ready.

    I understand what others are saying here. But I don't think there is a chance in the world the RS will opt to go with Wakefield and Aceves over Lackey and one of those two.

    To use an analogy if you were late for work one day and saved several minutes using the carpool lane which in my state is a $475 fine. You did not get caught and you were on time for work. Next day the same thing happens and you use the carpool lane and again no problems.

    You could do one of two things going forward. Sleep in several minutes and take the carpool lane to work because you didn't get caught. Or you could be happy that things worked out yesterday and return to your normal routine.

    If you do the later, sooner or later it will cost you $475. But OTOH it was working, so why change?

    The RS aren't going to wait for to metaphorically get pulled over and get their $475 ticket IMO.

    John Lackey when he is healthy (physically and mentally) give the RS the best chance to win of the three starters.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Great analogy Katz....but I still wait until someone gets shelled before I bring him back into the rotation!

    I want to win. If Wakefield and Aceves keep putting up quality starts they should stay in the rotation and Lackey is the mop up guy. We are paying him around $90 mil to earn his spot in the rotation. So far it ain't happening. If it bruises his ego I'm not worried about it. This game is for big boys.

    I know for sure that as soon as Lackey has a decent rehab start or 2 he's back in the rotation and probably Aceves is back in the pen but I'd rather keep going with the hot hand for a while until they go cold. That is not much to ask. We should encourage such performances.

    Reddick said the other day that when he realized that the Sox were going to go on without him unless he changed he finally said "OK, I'll change". Sometimes that is what it takes to get someone's attention. Lackey's fastball is down 4-6 mph. He's either hurt or not doing the strength work or something is wrong in his stride...etc. Something is clearly wrong. Until he proves he is back in form he should sit.

    That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    The guy who is just putting up monster numbers in the minors for us this year is Brentz. Regarded as one of the top 2 OF bats in college last year, he started slowly at Lowell but look at his projected numbers for this year for an expected 540 AB:

    HR: 39
    Triples: 9
    Doubles: 33
    Average: .361
    OPS 1.085

    The guy isn't walking much but he can definitely hit for power when he is on. Almost 42 % of his hits this year are XBH. And he has an arm suitable for Fenway's RF. And a RH pull bat.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II:
    [QUOTE]Great analogy Katz....but I still wait until someone gets shelled before I bring him back into the rotation! I want to win. If Wakefield and Aceves keep putting up quality starts they should stay in the rotation and Lackey is the mop up guy. We are paying him around $90 mil to earn his spot in the rotation. So far it ain't happening. If it bruises his ego I'm not worried about it. This game is for big boys. I know for sure that as soon as Lackey has a decent rehab start or 2 he's back in the rotation and probably Aceves is back in the pen but I'd rather keep going with the hot hand for a while until they go cold. That is not much to ask. We should encourage such performances. Reddick said the other day that when he realized that the Sox were going to go on without him unless he changed he finally said "OK, I'll change". Sometimes that is what it takes to get someone's attention. Lackey's fastball is down 4-6 mph. He's either hurt or not doing the strength work or something is wrong in his stride...etc. Something is clearly wrong. Until he proves he is back in form he should sit. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]A couple of thoughts. One Wakefield will get shelled. It is all a matter of day when the weather conditions or his grip that day makes his knuckleballs stay high. We all have watched this guy for a long time, no matter where you sit on him you know it will happen. If that is what you are waiting for it will happen, you can wait to see it or know after so many years it will. And there is little Wakefield can do about it when it happens. It is just nature of his game. 

    As for Lackey's fastball speed let's see what that really meant. Pitchers usually go on the DL when they are doing poorly because something is hurting. Lackey was outstanding this spring. And I might mention I am sure whether it was the guns or the pitchers but early in the season ever RS pitcher was down on the gun by a a couple of MPH or more.

    Now I am not suggesting that if Lackey looks bad in his rehab start that he not be asked to take a second start or that if he is still experiencing game changing discomfort that he be rushed to Boston to save us from the eventual stinker that one of the two spot starters will have. I am assuming the RS will take their time to ensure that Lackey is physically right (as right as any veteran MLB pitcher can be) and in a good place mentally as well.

    I am all for meritocracy with limits. If Lackey is deemed ready to return to the 25 man roster, he is a starting pitcher IMO. Aceves and Wakefield are here to prevent disaster when a starter needs to go on the DL and the fact that they have done it well against teams we have caught in middle scuffle should not cloud that issue.

    IMO the RS won't play it as others suggest. If they have doubts about Lackey they will keep him on the DL until they don't IMO. Better to have the extra reliever on the 25 man because they are going to need that arm at some point.

    By the hot hand only tact, I am I think the following is a probable scenario, BTW. Lackey sits with limited work, he hasn't been a reliever for years and will require long warm-up. The stats say the probability is Wake throws a stinker first (not a loss, a stinker, a 3.2 IP 5 run episode). Wake goes to the BP, Lackey goes into the rotation rusty. You have a rusty starter and knuckleball in the BP that you will be nervous to go near in high leverage situations. Not the best way to play it IMHO.

    BTW IMO nobody needs to get Lackey's attention. Say what you want about ""Mr. Pout face, the hits bat ran into the ball". The guy is a very competitive person, he is driven to do well, he wants the ball and has a burning desire to be a guy that his team can count on. His struggles this year are all the wake up call he needed.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    I have zero doubt that Lackey starts after his one or 2 rehab starts. I also have zero doubt that Lackey is not cut out for relief work. I think you are right on most counts Katz. I know Wakefield will eventually get shelled. Everyone does eventually right. What I'm saying is we have a hot hand in Aceves and Wakefield right now and I'm running with that hot hand until it cools. Wakefield has put up 5-6 quality starts in a row many times in his career and I am one person here who does not look at him as a major injury risk or even a guy who is declining due to age. As you know, knuckleball guys often pitch well late into their 40's and sometimes better than ever.

    That first year in Pittsburgh Wake put up insane numbers and then got released shortly afterward. That is the world of a knuckleball guy. No one appreciates them. They can win 10 in a row and the next year get released. They scare the daylights out of me also but the numbers indicate that they can also run off 5-10 great starts in a row and the more they pitch, generally the better they do.

    I don't see where it hurts us to give Wake a run and see how long he maintains it. I think the probability of more wins this year comes with that scenario rather than throwing our 8.01 ERA guy out there who appears to be coming off an injury. Let Lackey phase back in. Chances are Aceves or Wakefield tank a little within the next 2 weeks but if they just happen to be rolling still when Lackey is ready I'm leaving them in there! Cool
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from jidgef. Show jidgef's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    We are playing with house money with both back-up starters, and the smartest thing to do with house money is to cash it and keep it. Lackey has been one of the premier starters in the AL for years and he will be again. He gets the ball as soon as he's completed ONE rehab start; that's what I believe. I think Aceves will be the odd man out for a time, returning to the pen, because he is more valuable there than Wake. Wake stays in the rotation until/if Dice comes back or until he stops pitching effectively, either through overuse on his older body or simply teams hitting smarter against him. Virtually no one on the Cubs and only a few Tigers had seen Wake before; familiarity is not kind to knuckleball pitchers. 
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    ....but I still wait until someone gets shelled before I bring him back into the rotation! (boom)

    Isn't there a problem with this idea? What if Wake pitches 2-3 more good games then gets shelled. One bad game and your out? That's pretty lame, and it puts undo pressure on Wake and Aceves as well.

    A couple of thoughts. One Wakefield will get shelled. It is all a matter of day when the weather conditions or his grip that day makes his knuckleballs stay high. We all have watched this guy for a long time, no matter where you sit on him you know it will happen. If that is what you are waiting for it will happen, you can wait to see it or know after so many years it will. And there is little Wakefield can do about it when it happens. It is just nature of his game.  (katz)

    While there is truth in this statement, I feel it singles out Wake in the sense that somehow he is more likely to get shelled than the average pitcher, because he doesn't "have his stuff" that day. Almost every pitcher gets shelled when they don't have their stuff. I'm not saying Wake gets shelled equally or less than guys like Lester, but for some reason, people assume that because he pitches a knuckleball, he gets shelled when it doesn't knuckle. This is true, but my point is that fast abll pitchers get shelled when they lose location, curveball pitchers get shelled when it doesn't break right, etc...

    Let's just look at this year:

    Lester got shelled in 3 of 11 starts...
    (IP-H-ER-BB)
    5.1  6  5  1
    5.1  7  5  5
    6.0 12 5  5

    Buch got shelled in 2 of 10 starts...
    3.2   8  4  3
    6.2 12  4  2

    Dice-K: 3 out of 7 ...
    2.0  8  7  2
    4.1  5  5  7
    6.0  5  4  4

    Lackey: 4 out of 7

    Lester had a near Cy Young year last year, but out of 32 starts, he had these lines in a few starts...

    2.0  8  9  3
    4.0  9  8  5
    6.0  7  7  3
    6.0  9  6  1
    6.0  8  5  5
    5.0  9  4  3
    5.0  5  4  3

    That's maybe 6-7 out of 32 starts getting shelled or about 1 out of 5 starts.

    Wake has been shelled 1 out of 4 starts this year.

    Wake was shelled about 7 out of 20 starts last year (depending on your criteria and definition of the word "shelled").
    In 2009, he was shelled in about .3 of 6 starts after the injury, but beforehand, he was shelled about 3-4 times out of his first 15 starts.

    In 2008, he was shelled in only 5 of 30 starts (1/6th) at age 42.
    He had 22/30 starts with 0-3 ERS allowed and 24/30 with 0-4 ERs.
    (1 game was 8 IP 7 hits 5 ERs and 0 BBs. I didn't count this as "shelled")

    I really don't see the history of getting shelled that much more than the average guy, but for some reason, people remmber his bad games more. If you compare these numbers to the league average 4th/5th starters, he would rank among the best in lowest percent getting shelled and highest percent of games with 0-3 ERs. He's been our 5th/6th starter for 2 years now.



     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Nice data Moon. The hypocrisy towards Wake is never-ending.
    As for the discussion of who's who starting: the debate won't start with one bad outing by Aceves/Wake: That's where it ends!

    On a side note, I'd leave the fkn state before I'd ever pay out $475.00!
    That's absolutely insane!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    It's "highway robbery!"
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    moon, why bother giving facts to the anti-Wake parade. the funny thing is that it's Wakefield's own organization that should have these facts and examine them before making ill-advised decisions about how to manage him at age 44. They don't even get it. Leave him alone, let him start, hell let him go 100 pitches just once, and enjoy the dividends. I don't know how many times I've been trying to say this (and you, and harness as well have said it countless times)...Wakefield is a solid No. 5 starter who lost his job based solely on adding a starting pitcher without subtracting. Turning Tim into a sideshow.

    A reliever, but not a reliever Tito would dare use in key situations, and not even a reliever he should/would use as a long man (1 time maybe he was used in the long man scenario...most of the other relief jobs were short ones...relatively 1 to 2.1 innings of length)....a starter, but not one that he will let go past 85 pitches (is this mic on? bing, bong)...I am absolutely mystified at this bizarre coddling of Wakefield as if his arm is about to fall off, or tomorrow he will need an oxygen mask to go 3 innings...Enough, let the guy pitch and enjoy. As for Lackey? I'll say the same thing that I said about Dice-K when he was on the DL for lack of production and inferior performance....the less I see of him, the better I feel as a fan.

    I just don't have confidence in John Lackey or Dice-K as guys who are going to pitch a big game. Wakefield has done it twice in 2 starts, what more do you want fans?
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    If the tables were reversed, and Wakefield were throwing like Lackey has this year....I ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE HE WOULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN HIS UNCONDITIONAL RELEASE FROM BASEBALL...

    The Sox have a ridiculous double standard when it comes to coming to grips with Wakefield as a viable producer. He can't produce if he can't pitch. If you sit him in the pen for 21 days like Tito did last year, how is he suppose to prove to fans or outsiders/experts he's better than what the Sox believe he is. He keeps telling everyone what he can do, and yet, for whatever reason, the Sox management won't believe him. Now they sort of believe him, but with limitations...why the limitations? It's insane.  No other starter has been put through this type of grief and survived. It's the utmost in hypocrisy, and the fans are fueled by what management does.

    Here's a guy who now has to look over his shoulder the moment he has a bad outing. Lackey and Dice-K--the money dogs--get free passes.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Next time Wake does this line and it will happen: 3.1 IP, 7 H, 6 ER, 4 BB, ... i bet Tito sends him to the pen...and then doesn't clarify what is next for Tim..It will be tick-tock, tick-tock..8 games later, Tim comes into a 9-1 game in the 8th inn...bullshoy.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part II

    Every other Sox starter who has that line? Ah, off day, he'll get them next start...I just get sick of this whole nonsense, this over-analyzing of a good No. 5 starter, maybe one of the best No. 5 starters to throw the past 20 years.
     
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