A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Other than scoring 16 runs what about the starting pitching gave you hope tonight?                        Never ask a grapefruit a non-leading question. Or else you will get Wakefield and the word coming up big. The only thing big is Wastefield's waistline. And the only hate is someone using hate to try and censor criticism and dissent. Wakefield stinks as a pitcher. That is not hate, it's simply not PC criticism.
    Posted by napalmball[/QUOTE]

    Your waaay beyond criticism at this point...
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : On TWO, this again is an area where the pitching coach becomes a prominent sounding board. The pitchers said last year that Farrell was an excellent communicator. Haven't read any such thing about Young. On Lackey, only he knows if/how much of an issue his elbow is at this point...as well as the fact his wife has been fighting a deadly disease. He's made his starts after the cortisone shots. If he wins two more games, despite the DL stay and the circumstances under which he's pitching, he'll have 14 wins, which is his seasonal average.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Very tough to judge a pitching coach on his first year with a team. If he was not previously working with the big club (bullpen coach etc..... and I don't know Young's history) you spend the first year really getting to know your staff. I think you need to give a pitching coach at least 1.5 season til you start to see his influence as opposed to the coach most of the staff are used to. As a Braves fan, we had the most OVERRATED PC ever in Leo Mazzone, yeah he had 3 of the greatest pitchers of the era, but our bullpen guys were awful all the time. When he went to Baltimore, NOBODY got better.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : Your waaay beyond criticism at this point...
    Posted by southpaw777[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, "Napalm" fits him well.

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    m
     
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    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Amazing how one with his waistline can remain the only healthy starting pitcher going into the season...and reach heights you'll never reach.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    ...and remember who said he'd break down and get hurt.

    (Hint: rhymes with Hilly Town)

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    m
     
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    m
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III


    I hope Bard isn't experiencing a Radatz burnout.

    His velocity seems adequate but the walks are killing him. His arm slot must be way off.....where is Curt Young?  It's just not like Bard to be so erratic.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Another gut-wrenching loss but thanks to a great effort from guthrie and the O's, we didn't lose any ground against Tampa today. I'm sure Tampa faced a little emotional let-down after beating us over the weekend and are now further behind with fewer days to catch up. I don't like the way we're playing now, but if we get into the playoffs and can throw a healthy Beckett, Lester and Bedard, I like our chances against anyone.

    I heard a lot of criticism locally on the radio killing Francona for staying with Bard. But realistically, this team is built around a very good offense, and a very solid five-man playoff staff that should have been Becket, Lester and Buchholz, followed by Bard and Paplebon. We have to use Bedard for Buch, but beyond that, we are only going to win it all with three very good starters and the two bullpen studs. Francona can NOT run away from Bard now; we need him to be right for the playoffs.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : Very tough to judge a pitching coach on his first year with a team. If he was not previously working with the big club (bullpen coach etc..... and I don't know Young's history) you spend the first year really getting to know your staff. I think you need to give a pitching coach at least 1.5 season til you start to see his influence as opposed to the coach most of the staff are used to. As a Braves fan, we had the most OVERRATED PC ever in Leo Mazzone, yeah he had 3 of the greatest pitchers of the era, but our bullpen guys were awful all the time. When he went to Baltimore, NOBODY got better.
    Posted by athens7676[/QUOTE]

    I understand UR point and it has merit. My position on Curt Young started in May, and nothing has occurred to change it. In fact, the current situation only enhances it.

    I took such an early stance because I am well aware of how a coach can make you or break you.
    And I saw familiar earmarks of a potentially poor influence early on, beginning with lost velocity with Lester and Buch (beforeBuck's back isue).

    I made it a point to post it then, as I felt it eventually would have a rippling affect.
    A really good pitching coach doesn'tned a year and a half to acclimate himself to his pitchers. In the same fashion, a catcher doesn't need a year to "get used to"his pitchers". Communication skills and preparatory work are a mater of skill-set and dedication. There's no substitute for ability or hard work.

    Farrell put in the hours and was extremely dedicated. That's why I opted for his promotion and allowing Tito a deserved home office hike.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    harness, uh, i think Tito wants to manage, not exec.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    The idea is not to give him the choice, but do so in a favorable manner.. FO doesn't necessarily mean "exec". He can still be hands on as far as his input ...but from a distance.
    It would have enabled the team to keep Farrell, his close friend. An ex-pitcher as a manager is not a bad thing. An ex-pitching coach as MGR. is even better, as he can spot from a guy like Young what Tito might, and has, missed. 
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Joe Kerrigan was not exactly my idea of a good manager.
     
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    And until Kerrigan was exposed as by many, there was a mindset that he was like Farrell, manager material....well, Kerrigan is no Farrell, and I do respect John, but again Kerrigan turned into a big joke quickly.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Harness promoting Farrell internally is an interesting take but I am not sure he would be a very good fit in Boston. Don't think he'd handle the media that goes with that job nearly as well as the RS from Henry down would like. He may in fact be better suited IMO for that FO job than Francona would be too. 

    You never have FWIW gotten the drift of my critique of Farrell v. Dice-K. I have never defended what much of what Dice K had to say to Japanese writer back in 09 or really curse Farrell for his thoughts on the subject. But getting into a public spitting contest with a player in the media over it frankly was wrong. It isn't the way Theo or Tito operate. Some players are divas and idiots and air dirt laundry outside of the clubhouse but IMO great management does not and it isn't a sign of weakness. BB of the Pats is far from a pansy and in many ways is a noted hard azz. But whether it was Moss or Thomas or other issues BB keeps it in the room even if the diva idiots don't. Personal preference here of course but anytime the person in the parent/leadership role gets in the mud with the child/subordinate they are acting a fool and show poor judgment and leadership qualities. In a manager the media here will feed it for awhile but ventually kill you with it and a fair amount of players won't respect you for it either. 

    To some extent you credit Farrell for deep rooted organizational values. The shoulder strengthening programs roots proceeded him and I am sure it is still here. I am not sure that the total disdain of slide step and focusing on holding runners did not have its roots with the numbers geeks with Dell's and not Farrell either balancing the good (shoulder program) with bad (that ill fated just focus on the batter at the plate not the runner).  And FWIW going and getting that head strong Pitcher from Japn and then telling him to change so much because it was MLB was decison that I think ran much deeper in its roots than Farrell's office.

    Yeah Lester and Buch haven't been their best this year. But Farrell also couldn't get Papelbon close to right in two years and saw over some sub-par for Beckett years from Josh before this year. There have been plenty of misses during Farrell's reign and lots of successes. He was a very good pitching coach but he wasn't and isn't Dave Duncan either. 

    I just poke in here every once in awhile not trying to change your mind on the topic but rather as a counter weight.

    On to the topic of the day FWIW I think now the RS are in trouble even if the survive the regular season. Bard is likely playing through something and without him the bullpen it is pray you can get to Papelbon and the elastic Mr. Aceves. Youk is doing IMO a Lowell - A-Rod gig trying to play the rest of the year. It all feels bad right now.

    Jidgef, as for Tito getting roasted in the media today for sticking with Bard, that's RS Nation. If he pulled hm and another reliever blew it he gets roasted. If he skipped and they lost he gets roasted. When the RS lose he gets roasted, it is just the way things work in the market. But for all the second guessers in the world I wonder how much they'd like managing this current rotation and bullpen or how much they like the having the players he ha in the OF aside from Ellsbury to work with. Right now his job sux and most of all as a starter falters and the earlier he falters IMO it real sux.

    I am an eternal optmist but right now this club doesn't feel very good as the year closes. As weird as it sounds if the PO started today, I think the Tigers would have as good shot as anybody to get out of the AL and lose to the winner of the NL. 

    Just my take
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]And until Kerrigan was exposed as by many, there was a mindset that he was like Farrell, manager material....well, Kerrigan is no Farrell, and I do respect John, but again Kerrigan turned into a big joke quickly.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    And the fact Toronto is a .500 team in the toughest division on the planet shows that Farrell is no joke as a manager.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Guys, I want to throw a light on one of last year's top teams.  Excellent pitching staff, top closer, timely hitting, strong defense,  good mix of vets and up and coming young players.  Started off the year very strong, leading their division.  Then lost their catcher, their closer, about (3) other position players, vets didn't hit, people started pressing, rookies came up too early...the team?  Last year's World Champion S.F. Giants.  Looks like they won't be in the playoffs.  And I bring this up to point out what someone here said this week (Boom?): it's really hard to get into the playoffs every year and advance.  Many facets of the team have to be working together.  It has been painful to watch the Giants lately; great pitching is thrown away every night to no hitting and errors.  They have just been overwhelmed with injured players.  Right now I think we have two missing relievers, two missing starters, one missing outfielder, one infielder playing hurt, and one underperforming outfielder and two underperforming relievers...just a rough count.  When this occurs over time, it's probably not unrealistic to see the team not playing well.  Fortunately, we had a lead and we may get some of these people back. 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Harness promoting Farrell internally is an interesting take but I am not sure he would be a very good fit in Boston. Don't think he'd handle the media that goes with that job nearly as well as the RS from Henry down would like. He may in fact be better suited IMO for that FO job than Francona would be too.  You never have FWIW gotten the drift of my critique of Farrell v. Dice-K. I have never defended what much of what Dice K had to say to Japanese writer back in 09 or really curse Farrell for his thoughts on the subject. But getting into a public spitting contest with a player in the media over it frankly was wrong. It isn't the way Theo or Tito operate. Some players are divas and idiots and air dirt laundry outside of the clubhouse but IMO great management does not and it isn't a sign of weakness. BB of the Pats is far from a pansy and in many ways is a noted hard azz. But whether it was Moss or Thomas or other issues BB keeps it in the room even if the diva idiots don't. Personal preference here of course but anytime the person in the parent/leadership role gets in the mud with the child/subordinate they are acting a fool and show poor judgment and leadership qualities. In a manager the media here will feed it for awhile but ventually kill you with it and a fair amount of players won't respect you for it either.  To some extent you credit Farrell for deep rooted organizational values. The shoulder strengthening programs roots proceeded him and I am sure it is still here. I am not sure that the total disdain of slide step and focusing on holding runners did not have its roots with the numbers geeks with Dell's and not Farrell either balancing the good (shoulder program) with bad (that ill fated just focus on the batter at the plate not the runner).  And FWIW going and getting that head strong Pitcher from Japn and then telling him to change so much because it was MLB was decison that I think ran much deeper in its roots than Farrell's office. Yeah Lester and Buch haven't been their best this year. But Farrell also couldn't get Papelbon close to right in two years and saw over some sub-par for Beckett years from Josh before this year. There have been plenty of misses during Farrell's reign and lots of successes. He was a very good pitching coach but he wasn't and isn't Dave Duncan either.  I just poke in here every once in awhile not trying to change your mind on the topic but rather as a counter weight. On to the topic of the day FWIW I think now the RS are in trouble even if the survive the regular season. Bard is likely playing through something and without him the bullpen it is pray you can get to Papelbon and the elastic Mr. Aceves. Youk is doing IMO a Lowell - A-Rod gig trying to play the rest of the year. It all feels bad right now. Jidgef, as for Tito getting roasted in the media today for sticking with Bard, that's RS Nation. If he pulled hm and another reliever blew it he gets roasted. If he skipped and they lost he gets roasted. When the RS lose he gets roasted, it is just the way things work in the market. But for all the second guessers in the world I wonder how much they'd like managing this current rotation and bullpen or how much they like the having the players he ha in the OF aside from Ellsbury to work with. Right now his job sux and most of all as a starter falters and the earlier he falters IMO it real sux. I am an eternal optmist but right now this club doesn't feel very good as the year closes. As weird as it sounds if the PO started today, I think the Tigers would have as good shot as anybody to get out of the AL and lose to the winner of the NL.  Just my take
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    I realize Farrell had his short-comings. He's human. But the two critical areas for a PC beyond his ability are communication skills and dedication. And he was quite good in both areas. Pitchers said this more than once. The team advocates not using slide-step (Bedard does, but he always has, and it doesn't seem to affect his velocity). And they are insistent about training regime. Farrell simply carried that out.

    I wouldn't measure Farrell's skills with the media on that one occasion with Dice.
    He was interviewed often and was always kind and accessible.
    Dice ripped the FO and Farrell reacted. Perhaps he would have done it differently if he could have done it again, but I wouldn't blame him either way.
     
    To draw an awkward analogy, sometime ago I started a Wake thread called:
    TIM WAKEFIELD: AN HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE. It was long before the flood of wake threads we see now. Overall, it was a good thread with informative responses. Except for one NY jerk, who went after Joel49. Now, Joel is as well-mannered a poster as you will ever find on this board. Just a wonderful presence. Man, I'll tell ya, Joel lit into him and admitted was really upset.

    Just goes to show we are all human.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Quite a lot going on around MLB. 

    The Angels and Rangers end their season facing off against one another, ot could boil down to just that series.

    Detroit winners of 12 straight now have a better record than Boston. The way NY and Bos have both been playing leads me to think maybe Detroit would roll over either.

    Atlanta still hold the wild card but the nealry toast Cardinals could actually catch them.

    Tampa take 3 of 4 from Boston? Thats a necessity for them I believe.

    Big last 10 days coming.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Tigers have a better record than Boston because they are beating on weaker teams from their own division. Nobody in the Central is even at .500 beyond Detroit.

    Tigers vs:
    East:     18 - 14
    Central: 46 - 21
    West:    16 - 16

    Boston:
    East:     34 - 24
    Central: 21 - 16
    West:    21 - 14 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : I understand UR point and it has merit. My position on Curt Young started in May, and nothing has occurred to change it. In fact, the current situation only enhances it. I took such an early stance because I am well aware of how a coach can make you or break you. And I saw familiar earmarks of a potentially poor influence early on, beginning with lost velocity with Lester and Buch ( before Buck's back isue). I made it a point to post it then, as I felt it eventually would have a rippling affect. A really good pitching coach doesn'tned a year and a half to acclimate himself to his pitchers. In the same fashion, a catcher doesn't need a year to " get used to" his pitchers". Communication skills and preparatory work are a mater of skill-set and dedication. There's no substitute for ability or hard work. Farrell put in the hours and was extremely dedicated. That's why I opted for his promotion and allowing Tito a deserved home office hike.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    That's fair enough... I wasn't attacking you, just kind of saying give the guy a little more time, especially since he will probably be here next year. Although you obviously saw something you didn't like early... so you probably have a more reliable perspective than me. I hoe you didn't take my post as an attack...I most surely did not mean it as one.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Harness promoting Farrell internally is an interesting take but I am not sure he would be a very good fit in Boston. Don't think he'd handle the media that goes with that job nearly as well as the RS from Henry down would like. He may in fact be better suited IMO for that FO job than Francona would be too.  You never have FWIW gotten the drift of my critique of Farrell v. Dice-K. I have never defended what much of what Dice K had to say to Japanese writer back in 09 or really curse Farrell for his thoughts on the subject. But getting into a public spitting contest with a player in the media over it frankly was wrong. It isn't the way Theo or Tito operate. Some players are divas and idiots and air dirt laundry outside of the clubhouse but IMO great management does not and it isn't a sign of weakness. BB of the Pats is far from a pansy and in many ways is a noted hard azz. But whether it was Moss or Thomas or other issues BB keeps it in the room even if the diva idiots don't. Personal preference here of course but anytime the person in the parent/leadership role gets in the mud with the child/subordinate they are acting a fool and show poor judgment and leadership qualities. In a manager the media here will feed it for awhile but ventually kill you with it and a fair amount of players won't respect you for it either.  To some extent you credit Farrell for deep rooted organizational values. The shoulder strengthening programs roots proceeded him and I am sure it is still here. I am not sure that the total disdain of slide step and focusing on holding runners did not have its roots with the numbers geeks with Dell's and not Farrell either balancing the good (shoulder program) with bad (that ill fated just focus on the batter at the plate not the runner).  And FWIW going and getting that head strong Pitcher from Japn and then telling him to change so much because it was MLB was decison that I think ran much deeper in its roots than Farrell's office. Yeah Lester and Buch haven't been their best this year. But Farrell also couldn't get Papelbon close to right in two years and saw over some sub-par for Beckett years from Josh before this year. There have been plenty of misses during Farrell's reign and lots of successes. He was a very good pitching coach but he wasn't and isn't Dave Duncan either.  I just poke in here every once in awhile not trying to change your mind on the topic but rather as a counter weight. On to the topic of the day FWIW I think now the RS are in trouble even if the survive the regular season. Bard is likely playing through something and without him the bullpen it is pray you can get to Papelbon and the elastic Mr. Aceves. Youk is doing IMO a Lowell - A-Rod gig trying to play the rest of the year. It all feels bad right now. Jidgef, as for Tito getting roasted in the media today for sticking with Bard, that's RS Nation. If he pulled hm and another reliever blew it he gets roasted. If he skipped and they lost he gets roasted. When the RS lose he gets roasted, it is just the way things work in the market. But for all the second guessers in the world I wonder how much they'd like managing this current rotation and bullpen or how much they like the having the players he ha in the OF aside from Ellsbury to work with. Right now his job sux and most of all as a starter falters and the earlier he falters IMO it real sux. I am an eternal optmist but right now this club doesn't feel very good as the year closes. As weird as it sounds if the PO started today, I think the Tigers would have as good shot as anybody to get out of the AL and lose to the winner of the NL.  Just my take
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Solid and balanced post.

    I hope you are wrong about Bard, but I fear you are right.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Tigers have a better record than Boston because they are beating on weaker teams from their own division. Nobody in the Central is even at .500 beyond Detroit. Tigers vs: East:     18 - 14 Central: 46 - 21 West:    16 - 16 Boston: East:     34 - 24 Central: 21 - 16 West:    21 - 14 
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I agree with your point. If Detroit was in the AL east, they would be behind Boston right now.

    However, an intersting and opposing point can be made: the Sox are 16-15 vs the AL Central other than Detroit. Had we beaten up on them at the same rate as Detroit did, we'd be ahead of them now.

    MN    5-2
    KC    5-3
    Cle   4-6
    CWS 2-4

    (Det 5-1)

    (Sidenote: I never noticed the wide disparity in games played vs. other AL teams from the same division. 10 vs Cleveland, but only 6 vs CWS? Hmmmmm...)

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Then why should we fear an inferior team? 
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Then why should we fear an inferior team? 
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]Match-up and momentueum T. Look no further than the SF Giants to see an inferior team capable of running the post season table.
     

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