A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    I watched Tim's performance today and really if his catcher could just block a pitch some of the damage wouldn't have happened. If his 3rd baseman could make a simple throw, 2 less runs would have scored. Had his LF not been a complete butcher on a ball that hit the wall at Connor's chest level, again less damage. Moon, I just think there is some voodoo that is killing Wake's performances, and unfortunately it leads to shorter outings, and more runs scored v. him, earned or otherwise. It's not because his pitch is "up in the zone" or his knuckler is "rolling instead of no rotation".....He's getting killed on a number of fronts, and his catcher has hurt him in my opinion the most.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Honestly, I wouldn't even have pulled him after the 5th. Francona felt compelled to get him out of there, knowing full well Wake got zero defense to help him. McDonald also fumbling a ball in right.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]I watched Tim's performance today and really if his catcher could just block a pitch some of the damage wouldn't have happened. If his 3rd baseman could make a simple throw, 2 less runs would have scored. Had his LF not been a complete butcher on a ball that hit the wall at Connor's chest level, again less damage. Moon, I just think there is some voodoo that is killing Wake's performances, and unfortunately it leads to shorter outings, and more runs scored v. him, earned or otherwise. It's not because his pitch is "up in the zone" or his knuckler is "rolling instead of no rotation".....He's getting killed on a number of fronts, and his catcher has hurt him in my opinion the most.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Now you know how I felt when you accused me of throwing Kottaras under the bus...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    I liked Kottaras a lot, though...and he's hit pretty good hasn't he with his latest team? Salty was basically close to being out of baseball when the Sox took a flyer on him. Texas had given up on him, and he had a Mackey Sasser condition (since corrected). I like Salty, but it just seems like he makes way too many errant throws to 2b, and he is constantly lazy on pitches. He is frankly one of the worst catchers at blocking the ball in MLB. He just doesn't do a good job of that. He's a decent hitter for a catcher, but not really much of a keeper for his defense/pitch calling.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    It's like having Victor Martinez, but one who doesn't hit for average and hits for less power overall.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]I liked Kottaras a lot, though...and he's hit pretty good hasn't he with his latest team? Salty was basically close to being out of baseball when the Sox took a flyer on him. Texas had given up on him, and he had a Mackey Sasser condition (since corrected). I like Salty, but it just seems like he makes way too many errant throws to 2b, and he is constantly lazy on pitches. He is frankly one of the worst catchers at blocking the ball in MLB. He just doesn't do a good job of that. He's a decent hitter for a catcher, but not really much of a keeper for his defense/pitch calling.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Kottaras has hit .218 with .728 OPS since leaving.
    He hit .235 with .691 OPS in Boston.

    We both know his hitting was never the point. Back-up catchers aren't paid to hit.
    He was atrocious with the pitchers because
    1) he was an inexperienced rookie.
    2) He had a poor rep handling pitchers, and it really showed.

    My position was to exploit this and FO for putting him in such a position.
    You kept saying I was "throwing him under the bus".

    I can make the same accusation about you and your position on Salty, and let it run 600 posts like in '09, but I won't. I'll simply say that Salty has done a credible job for his age and first full year in Boston. It's tough to catch Wake. His physical skill-set isn't one of a great defensive catcher.

    I would not draw any conclusions as to his "pitch-calling" since there aren't many good frames of reference. Furthermore, he didn't have the rep of a VMART with pitchers, so it's premature to make any calls at this point.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    If we could only do a search on the archives in order to find out the position that various posters took on specific players while they were here and later let go such as Kottaras, Kotchman, and Masterson. I would also love to see what the immediate responses were when free agents were signed that later didn't pan out.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    You know I don't like to use profanity on a forum but OMFG! Our team sucks. GOOD GOD ALL FJJ$*FJ@# MIGHTY!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]If we could only do a search on the archives in order to find out the position that various posters took on specific players while they were here and later let go such as Kottaras, Kotchman, and Masterson. I would also love to see what the immediate responses were when free agents were signed that later didn't pan out.
    Posted by BeaconHill19[/QUOTE]

    Jim Davis and SinceYaz started threads exposing faulty positions, and the reaction was pretty strong. Reputable posters will own up to coming up short. They won't wait for such threads.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Honestly, I wouldn't even have pulled him after the 5th. Francona felt compelled to get him out of there, knowing full well Wake got zero defense to help him. McDonald also fumbling a ball in right.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I'd have left him in or let Miller go 4 to save the pen for today's DH.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Kottaras has hit .218 with .728 OPS since leaving.
    He hit .235 with .691 OPS in Boston.

    We both know his hitting was never the point. Back-up catchers aren't paid to hit.
    He was atrocious with the pitchers because 
    1) he was an inexperienced rookie.
    2) He had a poor rep handling pitchers, and it really showed.

    My position was to exploit this and FO for putting him in such a position.
    You kept saying I was "throwing him under the bus".

    I can make the same accusation about you and your position on Salty, and let it run 600 posts like in '09, but I won't. I'll simply say that Salty has done a credible job for his age and first full year in Boston. It's tough to catch Wake. His physical skill-set isn't one of a great defensive catcher. 

    I would not draw any conclusions as to his "pitch-calling" since there aren't many good frames of reference. Furthermore, he didn't have the rep of a VMART with pitchers, so it's premature to make any calls at this point.

    Solid post, harness.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : I'd have left him in or let Miller go 4 to save the pen for today's DH.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon, exactly, at that point, it was liked he was getting shelled and it was 6-2 after alll the nonsense. The timing was such that it was like he felt inclined to get him out of there, but don't you think that it had as much to do with Salty's inability to catch him? I think it did.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    On Kottaras, the Brewers are 17-8 in his games started, he's caught 4 shutouts and he's batting .250 this year with 5 hr, 15 RBI as a reserve catcher. In looking at the runs allowed, I don't see him hurting the team this year. Also, he's young as well, he's 28.....Before you take the guy apart with his "career numbers" he has been a reserve catcher, not a full-time starter. But Kottaras caught Wakefield better than the supposedly far better defensive receiving Kevin Cash. I just want people to not make an assumption based on a few opinions on this.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    harness, you clearly liked Cash, and clearly did not care for Kottaras. Salty is over-tired, over-played, not used to this amount of playing time. Varitek is healthy and has played sparsely and never catches Wakefield. I see no reason that in the next start, Tek can't be catching Tim. It's not like Salty is catching well for him over the last several starts--I think it's fatigue with Salty. These 4 hour games have to be taking their toll on him.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    I was being dramatic when I drew a Victor comparison. I don't think Victor is all that bad a catcher, but he's not very good either. I'm waiting to see what Salty is for the Sox pitchers. I don't think he's really all that good--he makes a lot of really terrible throws to 2nd, and he misses pitches so often, it's habit forming. But it's essentially his first full season as a starter.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    As for reps, when you aren't able to throw the ball back to the pitcher and it causes you to go to the minors, that's not exactly a great rep either. I'm just saying hard to make opinions about catchers on "reps" especially early in a career.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : moon, exactly, at that point, it was liked he was getting shelled and it was 6-2 after alll the nonsense. The timing was such that it was like he felt inclined to get him out of there, but don't you think that it had as much to do with Salty's inability to catch him? I think it did.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Salty couldn't catch the guys who came in afterwards either.

    I'd have either saved Miller to start today, or pitched Miller 4 innings yesterday to save the pen for today.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]harness, you clearly liked Cash, and clearly did not care for Kottaras. Salty is over-tired, over-played, not used to this amount of playing time. Varitek is healthy and has played sparsely and never catches Wakefield. I see no reason that in the next start, Tek can't be catching Tim. It's not like Salty is catching well for him over the last several starts--I think it's fatigue with Salty. These 4 hour games have to be taking their toll on him.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Salty has gotten worse at catching the knuckler. I agree. Give Vtek and extra start.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    I have been projecting Wakefield starting right up till today. Lot's of people projected his last start being weeks ago. Many of us knew Tito would keep throwing him out there but don't most of us wish they had another option at this point, especially against TB?

    I think this is Wake's last year. It doesn't matter who is catching him now. It's going to be an ERA around 9.00 the rest of the year. We need to move on at this point, even with guys like Miller and Wieland. I'd rather give Doubront a start and continue with Wieland, hope we get a start out of Buchholz. Maybe put Aceves out there for 3-4 innings. Maybe put some guys like Beckett and Lester out there every 4th day through year end. We need to thnk outside the box a little at this point. 

    And I really don't think the Sox are 90% likely to be in the playoffs at this point. Their starters are not getting it done and TB is finishing strong. It's all about pitching. Every year.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Miller gets released at year end IMO. Something is not right in Denmark on that one. We've tried. Maybe they still want to try but 3-4 organizations now have failed with him. Maybe it's just him.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]I have been projecting Wakefield starting right up till today. Lot's of people projected his last start being weeks ago. Many of us knew Tito would keep throwing him out there but don't most of us wish they had another option at this point, especially against TB? I think this is Wake's last year. It doesn't matter who is catching him now. It's going to be an ERA around 9.00 the rest of the year. We need to move on at this point, even with guys like Miller and Wieland. I'd rather give Doubront a start and continue with Wieland, hope we get a start out of Buchholz. Maybe put Aceves out there for 3-4 innings. Maybe put some guys like Beckett and Lester out there every 4th day through year end. We need to thnk outside the box a little at this point.  And I really don't think the Sox are 90% likely to be in the playoffs at this point. Their starters are not getting it done and TB is finishing strong. It's all about pitching. Every year.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE] I don't think I would have said this a month go, certainly wouldn't have 2 months ago but I think the RS probably will move on from Wake at the end of this year.

    It isn't the catcher. And there is a reasoin the RS have avoid Tek and Wake for years. Tek hasn't been the #1 catcher since July 31, 2009 and they have in that time still avoided the tandem like the plague for a reason.

    Passed balls and wild pitches are part of the package with Wake and always have been. They probably contribute to the relatively good starter's WHIP and scary bad ERA.

    At any rate, Wake's first half of 2009 is getting to be further and further in the rear view mirror and the days of a moderate 4 something ERA may well be past and this is an era with less scoring. Guys age and hit a wall and the only stat for that is in the present. Mike Cameron was still a good player in 2009.

    Not sure I am with you on the short rotation. The Angels have short rested Weaver with bad results for example. I think this is a case of just being caught short at the worst time in terms of starting pitching. And sadly Miller, Weiland Doubront aren't much different. 

    Even if the RS make the playoffs the amount of luck and good bounces it would take to get to the WS seems over whelming right now.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    I agree with your post, but would like to add to this...

    Passed balls and wild pitches are part of the package with Wake and always have been. They probably contribute to the relatively good starter's WHIP and scary bad ERA. 

    Yes, the PBs and WPs contribute to Wake's poor ERA, but the fact is, some catchers lessened that effect much better than Salty has the last 4-6 weeks or so. It's not easy to catch a knuckler, just as it is not easy to hit one either. Salty seemed to do better earlier in the season, not just with Wake, but with others as well (in terms of blocking the plate).
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]I agree with your post, but would like to add to this... Passed balls and wild pitches are part of the package with Wake and always have been. They probably contribute to the relatively good starter's WHIP and scary bad ERA.  Yes, the PBs and WPs contribute to Wake's poor ERA, but the fact is, some catchers lessened that effect much better than Salty has the last 4-6 weeks or so. It's not easy to catch a knuckler, just as it is not easy to hit one either. Salty seemed to do better earlier in the season, not just with Wake, but with others as well (in terms of blocking the plate).
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]I don't diagree in principle but the answer isn't Jason Varitek and it would be the catcher to an extent bailing out the pitcher, not the catcher's failure because it is very hard to catch.

    Salty hasn't been great back there but I have a tendancy with with Wake in particular to not blame catchers, which I think is how Wake has always approached it too, much like he did with Bard when he all those problems catching Wake leading to the motorcade from Logan for Mirabelli.

    While Salty has a slightly bigger than normal 5 hole, his ability to throw out runners actually helped Wake. I think there have been more CS this year than there were in many a moon with Wake pitching.

    I personally think strong glove hand is more important than fundemental blocking when catching Wakefield, a primary reason Tek hasn't been terribly good at, in spite of his solid fundementals in blocking. When the RS decieded to take the career AAA catcher Molina last year to catch Wake when VMart went down I think it says a lot about the RS assessment of Tek's abilities to catch Wake. No knock on Tek though, it is a freaky weird pitch.

    End of the day Wake is leaving a lot of KBalls high and flat in zone at very bad moments and those aren't that hard to hit. He has had his share of surrendered leads or giving back runs his offense just got him.

    I know he isn't alone. But he isn't 32 and still owed over $50M like Lackey and has little promise to be a servicable pitcher for 4-5 years like Weiland or Miller might.

    I got why the RS kept him on the 25 man all year once you pointed out the roster implications but it hasn't worked as most of hoped it would. Aside from arguing others have suked as much or more this year, there is little argument he hasn't gotten it done with any consistency since his back injury in mid 2009 and to me scape goating the catcher, the defense or anything else blurs that fact at this point.

      


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Lackey is driving me crazy. I sure hope they don't leave him out there long. He has been terrible all year. We score 6 runs in this atmosphere and he may even lose this game against the Orioles when we are fighting for our playoff lives.

    It's just killing us.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    We have tried with Lackey and Wakefield. We have most definitely given them every opportunity. At this point I'm outside the box looking at other options, including short rest for Lester and Beckett, hope like crazy that we can keep Bedard healthy, count on Buchholz for at least one start, yeah start Aceves and fill in with Doubront, Bowden, Atkinson...etc.

    We need to make the playoffs, rather than worry about what we are going to do when we get there...and Buchholz is still the key to any chances we have going forward.

     

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