A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Good points, katz. I wasn't trying to blame Salty. he's young and learning. I'm just saying that catchers in the past caught him much better. I just don't feel it is right to put 100% of the blame on a pitcher for so many passed balls. Guys reaching 1B on K's then scoring on WPs, PBs, SBs and Sac flies is nat as "earned" as line shot singles driving in a run from 2B on a long double.

    I did a game by game breakdown of how Wake's runs were scored. While he has had more than his share of runs scored on HRs, he has also had more than his share of runs scored...

    by relief pitchers allowing his inherited runners to score
    by many IF hits
    by many PBs and WPs
    by sac flies
    by misjudged balls ruled as hits
    by being left in too long as a sacrificial lamb to save the pen

    No doubt, Wake has not pitched well his last 7 games. The team was 11-4 before the last 7. I don't think Wake was meant to pitch much more than 15 starts. (I said it long ago.)
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In an ideal world, Lackey isn't even on the playoff roster. An ERA over 6.30 at this point in the season. Leave him in there long enough and he will lose this one also. Unbelievable.

    I don't want to dump on such a noble guy. I've admired him for years but hw has been nothing short of horrible all year long. We can't keep throwing him out there.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In an ideal world, Lackey isn't even on the playoff roster. An ERA over 6.30 at this point in the season. Leave him in there long enough and he will lose this one also. Unbelievable. I don't want to dump on such a noble guy. I've admired him for years but hw has been nothing short of horrible all year long. We can't keep throwing him out there.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]We are where we are as a team Boom because there aren't better options IMHO. Now it is the point where Lackey could in a way be sited as a large part of why the RS are in danger of not getting to the post season and pose little threat to go far if they can get in.

    While for all the debate about the pros and cons of Mr. Wakefield, the RS were not counting on him for much more than a mid 4 ERA and W-L that would be dictated by run support and the BP. Lackey however was signed to be #3 starter who could be a 1 or 2 on most teams and he has pitched like the body function #2.

    I don't see where the RS have answer on their roster when the only decent starts are coming from Beckett and Lester. Not Lackey's fault or even Theo's but this guy was signed to give them depth to protect them from just this situation and he has been as much a grease fire as any of the bottom of rotation fillers that have taken Dice-K's slot in the rotation.

    It has been a long time since our RS love was really tested, this may be the year some Angry Bill's and the Pink Hats jump of the bandwagon for awhile now.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    ...Lackey however was signed to be #3 starter who could be a 1 or 2 on most teams and he has pitched like the body function #2....

    Too funny!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Beacon, I don't much care about anyone else we lost, but I get out a bottle of whiskey every night and drink it while playing with my loaded pistol and then I go to bed and cry in my pillow--all the time thinking about Masterson...
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Here's something to contemplate:

    Since Sept 6th, we have outscored our opponents 92-90.

    We are 4-10 in that stretch.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Consider how many games we have scored 8 or more runs. Whats the point of 18 runs today if tomorow you score 1?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    I have a better stat for you - as of the other day Tampa's SP has 120 innings more than Boston's SP.  That is 13 full games more, which says far more than you might realize.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Consider how many games we have scored 8 or more runs. Whats the point of 18 runs today if tomorow you score 1?
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    I meant interesting not meaningful.

    It reminds me of Sox teams from long ago. The ones that never won rings.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]I have a better stat for you - as of the other day Tampa's SP has 120 innings more than Boston's SP.  That is 13 full games more, which says far more than you might realize.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Burrito, I have supported your position on this matter. We have not left our key starters in long enough in games we need to win. We burnt out Albers and all but Bard and Paps.

    I kept waiting for all the "extra rest" to come to fruition. What are we waiting for?



     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    TueSept 20Rays7:05 PMIvan Nova (15-4, 3.81)
    Wade Davis (10-9, 4.41)
      
    WedSept 21Rays1:05 PMCC Sabathia (19-8, 3.01)
    James Shields (15-11, 2.78)
      
    WedSept 21Rays7:05 PMIvan Nova (15-4, 3.81)
    Jeremy Hellickson (13-10, 2.91)


    APPEARS THE YANKS NEED NOVA TO GO TWICE
     
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : Burrito, I have supported your position on this matter. We have not left our key starters in long enough in games we need to win. We burnt out Albers and all but Bard and Paps. I kept waiting for all the "extra rest" to come to fruition. What are we waiting for?
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Yes I am a tired record on the matter - maybe I should just accept it Frown
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]As for reps, when you aren't able to throw the ball back to the pitcher and it causes you to go to the minors, that's not exactly a great rep either. I'm just saying hard to make opinions about catchers on "reps" especially early in a career.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    Reps came into play when there's a decade to draw from. We had that discussing VMART last year, but we have no such reference with Salty. My issue with G.K. (Kottaras) was he looked like a deer in headlights when catching the staff. His only rep came from his tenure in the minors, and it wasn't good regarding what he got out of a pitching staff. It showed. And the numbers backed it up.

    Cash was not an alternative to G.K.
    Only to VMART in 2010. Cash was not a good physical def receiver. VMART was better in that regard, except for the arm strength. But Cash had a solid rep for getting the most from his pitchers. That's why he stayed in the majors as long as he did. And the team did better with him catching over VMART when they both caught the same pitchers, in the same given month, (both had  started similar number of games started during that point in time because VMART had been hurt and Cash got many of his starts) despite the offensive difference between them.
    I pointed this out several times last year.

    Cash over G.K. would be a no-brainer if there was a choice to be made back then.
    Comparing G.K. now to what he was then is apples/oranges.
    How he has progressed is a reflection of his learning curve.
    Both Moon and I felt he would hit over time. If he's now doing well with his pitchers, good for him. He's come a long way if that's the case.

    If Salty can improve that much next year, it'll likely cement him in Boston.
    If he doesn't...
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    My two cents on ideas offered this evening.  I'm not ready to throw in the towel on the futures of Miller and Doubie whom I believe are young and still learning.  I have seen flashes of talent in each and don't think it's fair to judge them when they've been thrown into this situation for which they are not ready.  I think this is doubly true for Weiland who looks like a lost soul out there.  I also think Salty has done a credible job, may be getting tired, but has given about what could be expected.  This experiment has not been a failure.  Can anyone tell me what is the issue with Lackey's wife's health?  Several posters have referenced the RS fitness tonight.  Is this a consensus or are we just grasping because of the situation?  I think it 90% that we will be in the playoffs and it looks like they're hitting like crazed men tonight.  WE HAVE TO FIND SOME PITCHING!  I'm for starting Aceves if these other guys don't get healthy and letting Miller be the long relief guy.  He seems to do ok for two or three innings.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]We have tried with Lackey and Wakefield. We have most definitely given them every opportunity. At this point I'm outside the box looking at other options, including short rest for Lester and Beckett, hope like crazy that we can keep Bedard healthy, count on Buchholz for at least one start, yeah start Aceves and fill in with Doubront, Bowden, Atkinson...etc. We need to make the playoffs, rather than worry about what we are going to do when we get there...and Buchholz is still the key to any chances we have going forward.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    The team is going to make the playoffs, and Buchholz will not be a factor.
    Not in getting there.
    Not in round one.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : I don't diagree in principle but the answer isn't Jason Varitek and it would be the catcher to an extent bailing out the pitcher, not the catcher's failure because it is very hard to catch. Salty hasn't been great back there but I have a tendancy with with Wake in particular to not blame catchers, which I think is how Wake has always approached it too, much like he did with Bard when he all those problems catching Wake leading to the motorcade from Logan for Mirabelli. While Salty has a slightly bigger than normal 5 hole, his ability to throw out runners actually helped Wake. I think there have been more CS this year than there were in many a moon with Wake pitching. I personally think strong glove hand is more important than fundemental blocking when catching Wakefield, a primary reason Tek hasn't been terribly good at, in spite of his solid fundementals in blocking. When the RS decieded to take the career AAA catcher Molina last year to catch Wakewhen VMart went down I think it says a lot about the RS assessment of Tek's abilities to catch Wake. No knock on Tek though, it is a freaky weird pitch. End of the day Wake is leaving a lot of KBalls high and flat in zone at very bad moments and those aren't that hard to hit. He has had his share of surrendered leads or giving back runs his offense just got him. I know he isn't alone. But he isn't 32 and still owed over $50M like Lackey and has little promise to be a servicable pitcher for 4-5 years like Weiland or Miller might. I got why the RS kept him on the 25 man all year once you pointed out the roster implications but it hasn't worked as most of hoped it would. Aside from arguing others have suked as much or more this year, there is little argument he hasn't gotten it done with any consistency since his back injury in mid 2009 and to me scape goating the catcher, the defense or anything else blurs that fact at this point.   
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    He wasn't counted on for consistency. They spent 80 million Lackey for that.
    Wake was paid to fill in where necessary.
    And given what he makes, I'd say he's done more than his fair share.
    Moon & DC have worked over-time to prove this.

    I agree in part that his catcher may not be the real issue.

    You have to really watch how he pitches to understand his approach.
    In the game he won #200, his arc was higher for 4 innings. Then he changed it after Young went out to the mound, as he might have picked up on something (maybe a Boston first for our great PC).The knuckler he then threw reverted back to early 2009 form, depth-wise -  lower in the zone strikes with tremendous bite. He finished very strong over the final 9 outs, using fewer pitches than normal.

    This is why I was optimistic about his next start. Problem was, it was absolutely murder to catch. Runners were going on him even more than usual (Maddon's to credit here) and he had to abandon the lower dancer as it became too risky to throw with men on 3rd. (I also think Salty is to blame as he doesn't do a great job with Wake to begin with. But I doubt Tito wants Tek playing golie at this point).

    So, Wake went back to the more dinger-prone higher arc, and paid the price.
    If you watch the re-run of his last game, you'll see it for yourself.

    If Wake doesn't return next year, it won't be because he has lost command, which generally plagues other great knuckle-ballers as they hit the age wall.
    It won't be because the pitch has lost it's overall break.

    It'll be because he couldn't find the middle ground - and he really hasn't since his back surgery.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : Burrito, I have supported your position on this matter. We have not left our key starters in long enough in games we need to win. We burnt out Albers and all but Bard and Paps. I kept waiting for all the "extra rest" to come to fruition. What are we waiting for?
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    You'll find out at the beginning of October.

    Tampa's pitchers throwing more IP is not a reflection of Tito. It's a reflection of topof the rotation pitchers staying healthy, (which is often the by-product of more disciplined training and attention to detail), and pitch efficiency.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]My two cents on ideas offered this evening.  I'm not ready to throw in the towel on the futures of Miller and Doubie whom I believe are young and still learning.  I have seen flashes of talent in each and don't think it's fair to judge them when they've been thrown into this situation for which they are not ready.  I think this is doubly true for Weiland who looks like a lost soul out there.  I also think Salty has done a credible job, may be getting tired, but has given about what could be expected.  This experiment has not been a failure.  Can anyone tell me what is the issue with Lackey's wife's health?  Several posters have referenced the RS fitness tonight.  Is this a consensus or are we just grasping because of the situation?  I think it 90% that we will be in the playoffs and it looks like they're hitting like crazed men tonight.  WE HAVE TO FIND SOME PITCHING!  I'm for starting Aceves if these other guys don't get healthy and letting Miller be the long relief guy.  He seems to do ok for two or three innings.
    Posted by Critter23[/QUOTE]

    She has cancer. Breast cancer. Lackey himself may be pitching with the same bum elbow he had in May...and in CA in 2008/9.

    Disagree on starting Aceves. He was wasted today in a panic move.
    Has to much value as a reliever...and has shown little as a starter.
    (5.12 ERA  1.571 WHIP in 4 starts for Boston. 21 IP.
    He's only gone past the 5th frame once...never facing A.L. East comp.).
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Lackey himself may be pitching with the same bum elbow he had in May...and in CA in 2008/9.



    and why would sox management keep that secret
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Maybe Lackey is the one who is closed-mouth at this point.
    We'll likely know after the playoffs.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Maybe Lackey is the one who is closed-mouth at this point. We'll likely know after the playoffs.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    and he would be maybe quiet now but not in may why ?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from athens7676. Show athens7676's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Doubront still seems promising. As far as Miller? It's not his stuff that is in question, it's command. He is all over(and at times way out of) the zone...so then he grooves one.... if the command does not improve...neither will he. I really do think Doobie has the ability to be an excellent pitcher though.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III : and he would be maybe quiet now but not in may why ?
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]

    Could be pain threshold. Likely worse in May (14.34 ERA/2.531 WHIP).
    Could be he he doesn't want to jeopardize any possible PO start.
    Could be that after two cort shots and a history of elbow issues, he doesn't want to endanger the contract clause in the 5th year.
    Could be he knows how Boston fans will blow it all out of proportion.

    A tell-tale sign with Lackey is his control. In April/May, he has 19 SO/18BB
    After he returned from the DL: 47 SO/12BB over June/July.
    His first 4 starts in August: 20 SO/7BB.
    Since then to now: 18 SO/16BB.

    Here's betting they would shut him down the rest of the year if the SR wasn't in such dire straights.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    Could be pain threshold. Likely worse in May (14.34 ERA/2.531 WHIP).
    Could be he he doesn't want to jeopardize any possible PO start.
    Could be that after two cort shots and a history of elbow issues, he doesn't want to endanger the contract clause in the 5th year.
    Could be he knows how Boston fans will blow it all out of proportion.

    I'll give you the 1st  could be

    and a ladder to reach the rest
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2011: Part III

    I've climbed many a ladder. SO/BB indicator is more the likely elevator.
     

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