A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Just some thoughts - I am upset with the players over all of this and I feel bad that Terry got the short end of it all. Having said that I wonder if the players had had enough of the L-R-L-R and the constant early hooks on $10+ million dollar pitchers even when they pitched well, or that players like Lowrie were in the clean-up spot. Maybe the players were upset with some of the poor management that had been going on for a long time?

    There has to be a reason beyond Terry being easy to walk on that cuased the millionaire brats to act the way they did.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : harness, you're missing my point. Tito said what he said, alluding to a clubhouse that wasn't very strong in continuity or even camaraderie. The players who played longest for Tito don't necessarily owe Tito, but certainly could do a better job of not knocking the guy on his exit.
    Posted by dannycater


    Tito said the team needed a new voice. He said he couldn't reach them.
    That's just as much a reflection on himself, if not more so.
    The players aren't saying anything different. In fact, they are being more kind than Tito was to himself.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    All good points and all true. These are the growing pains of a FT first year catcher.

    Slaty has had a couple seasons with nearly as many games as 2011. He's been in the bigs since 2007 (and back down a few times), but I get your point. 

    And I'll bet most are repeated with rookie Lavernway. 

    We had this discussion about Kottaras. A contending team in Boston is not the best situation for a catcher to cut his teeth. I get what you mean about Lava, but I really can't imagine much worse than what we got from Salty, but I do imagine better hitting, throwing and maybe plate blocking. The intangibles could be worse, but Salty's seemed pretty bad, so how much of a drop off could there be? 

    Off-seasons are for reflecting and improving. As tempting as it would be to cut the string on Salty, I think we should chalk it up to a maturation process and look for improvement, especially regarding endurance.

    My thought was that we could probably get some GM to give us a useful piece for Salty and not drop off at the catcher position.

    I don't want to give up on this kid. He knows the score and who's on his heels. I'd really like to see him return and show what he's made of.

    I am certain he will return. I did see some good moments. It was a long season, but he did only catch 103 games, some of which were partials. VTek caught 144 at age 27 and 139 at age 28. I'm not sure I can see Salty do that the next 2 years, but we'll see.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : Tito said the team needed a new voice. He said he couldn't reach them. That's just as much a reflection on himself, if not more so. The players aren't saying anything different. In fact, they are being more kind than Tito was to himself.
    Posted by harness


    harness, I was answering to the point of what I meant by a player throwing someone "under a bus." There are several well-known sportswriters who viewed it the way I viewed it on Tek. You and moon said you don't see that aspect. I see it plain and clear. What someone says about himself, i.e. Tito, has nothing to do with how a player responds to the what went wrongs, etc of the team. You are saying that Tek is echoing Tito's comments. You don't echo comments like that. You certainly don't rubberstamp them the way Tek did. It's called class, and as much as I appreciate Tek and all of his accomplishments along the way, he was like a pirate who just saw the Captain get killed in front of him. No remorse, no feeling of sorrow over the death of his boss, simply that guy essentially sucked at his job and lost control of the clubhouse. Sounds to me like a player who obviously felt Tito was a big part of the problem. The classy thing to do was what Pedroia did, the unclassy thing to do is what Lester and Tek did. I lost respect for both, and that's how I feel about it. You can defend Tek as if he said nothing disparaging about his former manager. Again, to be clear, I was as a big a critic of lineups, mandatory player sit-downs in hot streaks, and odd choices for relief appearances, of Tito's managing. It still doesn't mean I wanted him fired or that he wasn't doing his job. Some managers were a living nightmare, daily nightmare including Jimy Williams last few years with team. Kerrigan was a bigger nightmare in his short time. How many Orioles managers have come since Weaver left? Not easy to find a successful manager. Maybe it was time for Tito to go, but he deserved better than the treatment he's received from players who obviously disrespected him down the stretch--that list is long by the way.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Just some thoughts - I am upset with the players over all of this and I feel bad that Terry got the short end of it all. Having said that I wonder if the players had had enough of the L-R-L-R and the constant early hooks on $10+ million dollar pitchers even when they pitched well, or that players like Lowrie were in the clean-up spot. Maybe the players were upset with some of the poor management that had been going on for a long time?

    Could be, but you know, when I proposed juggling the line-up more than Tito did to account for splits and such, many posters said Tito was doing the right thing to "keep the players happy" and in a "routine". Well, now those same posters are blasting away for him doing what they wanted him to do. (Not you Burr)

    There has to be a reason beyond Terry being easy to walk on that cuased the millionaire brats to act the way they did.

    I think there is some truth in this, but the players are grown men. Only a few have taken ownership.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    that says a lot... some have spoken... which means many are not mature enough to speak up... what a mess it truly must have been, makes us (me you harness soft expitch etc.,) look like blood-brothers.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Could it be that we are best off with a Lavarnway/Salty combo? Or would it be prudent to have all 3 available with one on the farm? Catchers could use some time off to heal. They get hurt a lot but often play through some injuries. As much as I'd prefer Lavarnway as the starter already, they might chose to bring back Salty/Tek but I just think that it is very unlikely to bring back Tek while he is a type B this year. I think they hope and pray he continues playing and signs somewhere else.

    I could go on and on criticizing harness's distortions and apparent complete inability to do math ( I said several journalism awards for Holher. Harness said 1. I proved 3 and then the tap dancing began ). But, But, But...etc.

    Harness says he thinks Young is probably finished in the league and then in today's news:

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Curt Young probably has a pitching coach job next year IMO.

    Anyway, this winter will be interesting. I'm not even certain Theo is gone yet but that door is about as closed behind him as one can get. They are doing the right thing to hold out for significant talent while Theo moves ahead apparently cutting deals with the Hoyer to be his GM when he doesn't even have the Cubs job yet. Can you imagine the Redsox not cutting Theo loose to let him take the $18 mil deal and his opportunity to be President of baseball operations? Now that would be a sensitive situation if he came back.

    Some sort of deal will be announced soon. This can't go on much longer. Apparently the Cubs have asked for a press conference.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    The focus seems to me to be what is going to make this team better in 2012. They paid a lot of money and have a tremendous core of players which need to win now. I think they will put the absolute best team they can on the field in 2012. Will that mean bringing back Papelbon and Ortiz though rather than taking the 4 picks? That is a lot to ask!

    Even if Papelbon and Ortiz go though I think they will move to put a solid team on the field. They need to win now.

    Will we see a large turnover in players? There would seem to be some logic to that IMO.
     
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Well, I don't really want to participate in the "Tito is being thrown under the bus" debate.  I like to give the players the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe Tek is just trying to speak briefly and stay out of the line of fire.  On the other hand, it's pretty easy for a player to say something like this.  "Tito was our leader when we won two World Series.  That says something."  That gives Tito a pat on the back and doesn't reveal whether the player hates his guts or not.

    An English teacher friend of mine is also a pastor.  He was telling me once he performed a funeral for a guy who was hated and reviled by his own family let alone everybody else.  It was hard to compose a service.  So he said stuff like this: "He gave what he could give of love."  Which was nothing.  The point is with a little effort these delicate situations can be broached without blood in the water.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Is Hank Williams....Softy?  He always gives what he can give of love and courtesy...among our brothers as we've celebrated the RS in halcycon days of yore...How's that Moon? 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    It seems to me that the autopsy of the 2011 RS season keeps look for simple answers to what went wrong rather than considering a whole series of things came together to create the perfect storm that was September 2011.

    First off, while Francona and the RS had created one culture things but things had changed. Not the least of which is the RS had never quite been the pre-season consensus front runner that they were before. Part of what drove this organization as they always were at least a modest underdog to NYY.

    There probably was some natural fatigue with leadership. Just like any relationship after some many years people take each other for granted.

    A series of events to the starting pitching really put this team under stress and they reacted poorly exposing that by the severity of the collapse. 

    The management is seeing a lot of change. It is as it should be but that doesn't take away from the past successes that this management team had in different circumstances. Certainly history will focus on the W-L record and playoff appearances over their careers here and not 2011.

    I think the majority of players aren't throwing Francona under the bus, they reflect a certain resignation to his departure and perhaps that there was some fatigue in the relationships.
     
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    Is Hank Williams....Softy?  He always gives what he can give of love and courtesy...among our brothers as we've celebrated the RS in halcycon days of yore...How's that Moon? 
    Posted by Critter23

    I'm sure somewhere in there some sense was made, but it evaded me.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    Well, I don't really want to participate in the "Tito is being thrown under the bus" debate.  I like to give the players the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe Tek is just trying to speak briefly and stay out of the line of fire.  On the other hand, it's pretty easy for a player to say something like this.  "Tito was our leader when we won two World Series.  That says something."  That gives Tito a pat on the back and doesn't reveal whether the player hates his guts or not. An English teacher friend of mine is also a pastor.  He was telling me once he performed a funeral for a guy who was hated and reviled by his own family let alone everybody else.  It was hard to compose a service.  So he said stuff like this: "He gave what he could give of love."  Which was nothing.  The point is with a little effort these delicate situations can be broached without blood in the water.
    Posted by Critter23


    Critter, you are spot on with this post. This is exactly what I was alluding to. The idea that Tek had so many ways to explain the situation without referring to being critical of what "Francona perceived."....so many other ways.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    moon, I like your post 19951....again, the players are doing a very poor job of owning up to things, and a very poor job of at least being classy about Tito's departure. You can' t make everyone happy, but for cryin' out loud was Tito so bad for the players when he was deemed a players manager. It's as if they all want babysitters, the players.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    Could it be that we are best off with a Lavarnway/Salty combo? Or would it be prudent to have all 3 available with one on the farm? Catchers could use some time off to heal. They get hurt a lot but often play through some injuries. As much as I'd prefer Lavarnway as the starter already, they might chose to bring back Salty/Tek but I just think that it is very unlikely to bring back Tek while he is a type B this year. I think they hope and pray he continues playing and signs somewhere else. I could go on and on criticizing harness's distortions and apparent complete inability to do math ( I said several journalism awards for Holher. Harness said 1. I proved 3 and then the tap dancing began ). But, But, But...etc. Harness says he thinks Young is probably finished in the league and then in today's news: A's eyeing familiar face  Young as pitching coach Staple in Oakland organization  could return after Boston stint By Jane Lee / MLB.com   http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111019&content_id=25718774&vkey=news_oak&c_id=oak
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom

    nice prediction harness. Young will be the A's pitching coach by next Tuesday, at the latest.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : nice prediction harness. Young will be the A's pitching coach by next Tuesday, at the latest.
    Posted by ADG


    A year ago the forum demanded that Farrell be gone and wanted Young to be brought in. Now they want Young out. The trolls game is to bash everyone no matter what.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Here's a rundown of the 2012 payroll budget:
    Numbers in Red are arb and pre-arb estimates. Players do not usually get large raises in their first and 2nd arbs, but can on the last 2.

    S1 Beckett    $17M   ($17M  2013-2014)
    S2 Lester        $7.63M ($11.63M in 2013 w/ $13M'14 option $.25 B/O)
    S3 Buchholtz $3.75M  ($5.75M, $7.95M, $12.25M)
    S4 ________
    S5 Lackey       $15.95  ($15.95M, $15.95M, w/'15 option if injured)
    S6 ________
    S7 Matsusaka $10.33  (2013 FA)
    S8 Tazawa  ~1.5M from $1.5M (Pre-Arb, then 3 Arbs)
    S9 Doubront ~$.415M (Pre-Arb)
    S10 Weiland ~$.415M (Pre-Arb)

    R1 ________
    R2 Bard            $ ~ $1M  from $.505M (Arb 1 of 4)
    R3 Aceves       $ ~ $1M  from .640M  (Arb 1 of 3)
    R4 ________
    R5 Jenks           $6M  (2013 FA)
    R6 Albers         $ ~ $.950M from $.875M (Arb 3 of 4)
    R7 Morales       $ ~$.550M from $.424M  (Arb 1 of 3)
    R8 Bowden       $ ~$.425M  from $.4175M(Pre-Arb)
    R9 Atchison      $~$.455M from $.454M (Pre-Arb?)

    C1 Saltalamacchia          ~$1.50M from $.750M (Arb 1 of 3)
    C2/3 or DH  Lavarnway ~$.425M  (Pre-Arb)
    C   _________

    1B Gonzalez     $21.857M  ($21.857 from 2013 to 2018)
    1B Anderson    ~$.415M  (Pre-Arb)

    2B Pedroia       $8.25M   ($10.25M, $10.25M, & $11M '15 opt $.25M B/O)
    2B Tejada          ~$.425M  (Pre-Arb)

    3B Youkilis      $12.25M  ('13 option $13M or $1M buyout))
    3B Lowrie         ~$.650M from $.450M  (Arb 1 of 3)

    SS _______
    SS Aviles          ~$.80M  from $.640M  (Arb 1 0f 3)
    SS Iglesias      $2.06M      (2013 $2.06M)

    LF Crawford   $20.357M  ($20.857, $21.107, $21.357, $21.607, $21M)
    LF McDonald   ~$.550M  from $.470M   (Arb 1 of 4)

    CF Ellsbury     ~$5M from $2.4M  (Arb 2 of 3)
    CF Kalish         ~$.425M from $.415M (Pre-Arb)

    RF ________
    RF Reddick      ~$.425M  from $.4175M  (Pre-Arb)

    DH ________

    About $137M total, not counting the empty slots of...

    SP4
    SP6
    RP1
    RP4
    RF
    SS
    DH
    C

    It's hard to decide what to do before all the options are decided and who we know are FA, but this is an early plan I will submit:

    Take Scutaro option at $6M (Add: $6M)

    Trade: Ranaudo, Vitek, and Bowden for Guthrie (Add: Arb: ~$6M)

    Trade: Jenks ($6M/1) and Theo for a prospect. (Save ~$6M from 2012)

    Trade: Lackey (~$48M/3), Brentz, Iglesias, Weiland, and the prospect from the Cubs for Alex Rios ($38M/3), J. Crain ($9M/2) & Ohman ($2.5M/1) (Add ~$2.5M for 2012)

    Sign Papelbon: $50M/4 (Add ~12.5M for 2012)

    Sign Ortiz: $12M + $8M + '14 opt at $6M with $2M Buyout (Add $12M)

    Sign Cody Ross: $10M/3 (Add ~3M for 2012)

    Sign Freddie Garcia: $7M/2 with incentives (Add $4M)

    Sign Jason Varitek: $1.5M w/incentives up to $1.5M more (Add $1.5M)

    Sign: Sign Tim Wakefield: $1.5M w/incenives  to $1.5M more (Add $1.5M)

    Sign Brandon Webb: $1M minor league deal with incentives up to $1.5M more (Add $1M)
    Add ~$44M

    Total Payroll of about $180M

    The 2012 Roster:
    S1 Beckett
    S2 Lester
    S3 Buchholtz
    S4 Guthrie
    S5 Garcia
    S6 Matsusaka (after July)
    S7 Wakefield
    S8 Webb (AAA)
    S9 Tazawa (AAA)
    S10 Doubront (AAA or relief)

    R1 Papelbon
    R2 Bard
    R3 Crain
    R4 Aceves
    R5 Ohman
    R6 Morales
    R7 Albers (AAA or traded))
    R8 Atchison (AAA or traded) 
    R9 & 10 (See Doubront, Tazawa, Webb, and Wake)

    13 position players:
    C  Salty(1B)/Lava (DH)/VTek
    1B AGon
    2B Pedey
    3B Youk/Lowrie
    SS Scutty/Aviles(OF)
    LF Crawford
    CF Ellsbury
    RF Kalish or Reddick/Ross

    Possibles: DMac, Middlebrooks,Barnes, Wilson, Bogaerts and Jacobs.

    If we need to stay at about the 2011 buget number, then no Papi and let Youk and lava get most of the DH PAs and play Aviles and Lowrie at 3B a lot.

    Sidenote: this is my preliminary plan. I reserve the right to modify it as options are decided by other team's FAs, and other factors occur.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I



    Boston's main goal: GET RID OF LACKEY!!!  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    All good points and all true. These are the growing pains of a FT first year catcher. Slaty has had a couple seasons with nearly as many games as 2011. He's been in the bigs since 2007 (and back down a few times), but I get your point.  And I'll bet most are repeated with rookie Lavernway.  We had this discussion about Kottaras. A contending team in Boston is not the best situation for a catcher to cut his teeth. I get what you mean about Lava, but I really can't imagine much worse than what we got from Salty, but I do imagine better hitting, throwing and maybe plate blocking. The intangibles could be worse, but Salty's seemed pretty bad, so how much of a drop off could there be?  Off-seasons are for reflecting and improving. As tempting as it would be to cut the string on Salty, I think we should chalk it up to a maturation process and look for improvement, especially regarding endurance. My thought was that we could probably get some GM to give us a useful piece for Salty and not drop off at the catcher position. I don't want to give up on this kid. He knows the score and who's on his heels. I'd really like to see him return and show what he's made of. I am certain he will return. I did see some good moments. It was a long season, but he did only catch 103 games, some of which were partials. VTek caught 144 at age 27 and 139 at age 28. I'm not sure I can see Salty do that the next 2 years, but we'll see.
    Posted by moonslav59


    The whole point is not to get worse. It's to improve. The key area is the pitching staff, and I gotta believe Salty will learn from 2011. With Lavern - it may be 2011 all over again in this area...or worse.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Sign Jason Varitek: $1.5M w/incentives up to $1.5M more (Add $1.5M)
    Sign Tim Wakefield: $1.5M w/incenives up to $1.5M more (Add $1.5M)

    Offer Varitek and Wakefield minor league contracts at league minimum with .5 million if they are called up or make the opening day roster during 2012 season. If they are not on roster by March 30, they can declare themselves FA and go beg some other foolish GM for a contract.

    No way should Varitek and Wakefield be on the opening day 25 man active roster!

    Cody Ross, 3.33M a year for 3 years! A butcher in the field and coming off a .234 and .336 SLG year. If you are going to go 3 years on ross, who will get no more than 2 years on the market, there is no need for Rios and 38M. You are spending almost 13M a year and 50 million for these two journey men. The Red Sox already have Crawford and  Reddick and Kalish. Trade ellsbury in a deal for Kemp and get Kemp for 2012  and beyond.

    Your 2012 plan:

    Rios and  Cody Ross and Ellsbury =  21 to 23M for 2012

    Kemp and  Reddick and Kalish = 11 to 12M for 2012

    Your 2013 plan:

    Rios and  Cody Ross and Ellsbury =  21 to 24M for 2013

    Kemp and Reddick and Kalish = 22M to 23M for 2013

    Don't give up your part time job as an embedded Internet NYT re-educator.


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    With Varitek, it could be 2011 all over again, or even worse.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]Could it be that we are best off with a Lavarnway/Salty combo? Or would it be prudent to have all 3 available with one on the farm? Catchers could use some time off to heal. They get hurt a lot but often play through some injuries. As much as I'd prefer Lavarnway as the starter already, they might chose to bring back Salty/Tek but I just think that it is very unlikely to bring back Tek while he is a type B this year. I think they hope and pray he continues playing and signs somewhere else. I could go on and on criticizing harness's distortions and apparent complete inability to do math ( I said several journalism awards for Holher. Harness said 1. I proved 3 and then the tap dancing began ). But, But, But...etc.


    I doubt others give a sh*t at this point. FTR: You said several prestigious awards. That's what you are either to thick or too gutless to admit.
    Nothing he has ever won was prestigious.

    Gammons who has won prestigious accolades, said this about the circus of hack writing/allegations surrounding what you would refer to as fair reporting:

    "At this point, there’s so much swill out there, I need specific, I need names from references, because a report doesn’t have any validity unless it has a name behind it and secondly, when it happened and exactly when was it? ...More specifics,” Gammons said. “Otherwise it’s just so absurd at this point.”


    Harness says he thinks Young is probably finished in the league and then in today's news: A's eyeing familiar face  Young as pitching coach Staple in Oakland organization  could return after Boston stint By Jane Lee / MLB.com   http://oakland.athletics.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20111019&content_id=25718774&vkey=news_oak&c_id=oak
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom

    Gee. Ya think Young feels his present job is in jeopardy?

    The only club that would likely even grant Young an interview at this point is Oakland. They developed him up as a player. He knows the organization and beyond 2011 has never had a job as PC with anybody else. If this is your beacon of light, you are still in the dark.



     
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