A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    With better pitching, perhaps the Red Sox will have shorter games in 2012:

    http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/info-2011playingtime.html
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I :  Harness, you jump to conclusions by stating a fact (Tito has not been signed to manage) and try to show that your reasoning is solid. Teams will be replacing managers, but will first interview multiple candidates, so staing the fact that Tito hasn't signed, doesn't prove he wont be signed. The Schilling conclusion is bereft of irreproachability, his record as a commentator is suspect. I suppose we won't see it the same way, I won't paint the press as the bad guys. Why do the players and coaches even bother to read the clippings?
    Posted by YOUKILLUS20[/QUOTE]

    Many don't. It's no wonder why.

    BTW: I didn't say Tito won't be signed. I said he hasn't been yet, and Hohler's garbage won't do Tito any favors once interviews start.
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]With better pitching, perhaps the Red Sox will have shorter games in 2012: http://www.flipflopflyin.com/flipflopflyball/info-2011playingtime.html
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Better pitching will help, but the RedSox hitters and the way they work counts is the main reason for the extended duration.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    I think you are right katz, but I have some lingering doubts about Youk's ability to get used to the DH role. It does make some sense, in that we get the pick(s) for Papi and can use the money on pitching or RF. I actually think an Aviles/Lowrie 3B platoon would not be that bad (with Youk playing if needed or to give others a rest at DH).

    Here's a possible rotation assuming all are healthy:
    SS:  Scutaro 142 / Aviles 20
    3B: Aviles 100 / Lowrie 52 (vs LHPs) / Youk 10
    DH: Youk 120 / Lava 30 / AGon 12
    1B:  AGon 140 / Youk 22
    C:    Lavarnway 100 / Salty  62
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    You're not going to get Kemp for a 4th outfielder, a 33 year old dinged up 3rd baseman and "some  prospect", let alone get King Felix, too..
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : Better pitching will help, but the RedSox hitters and the way they work counts is the main reason for the extended duration.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#sectionType=st&playerType=QUALIFIER&statType=hitting&page_type=SortablePlayer&season=2011&season_type=ANY&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&split=&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position=&sortOrder='desc'&sortColumn=np&results=&page=1&perPage=50&timeframe=&extended=1&last_x_days=&ts=1318650114515&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+hitting
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Sox pitching was just about 200 pitches away from leading the league in NP as well.  That doesn't seem to fit into the Sox philosophy too well.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    As a crazy bit of a change up, what went right about 2011?

    Ellsbury had a marvelous season. He was the team's MVP period. He was the single most consistent player from bell to bell. When the team collapsed he did everything he could to try and carry his team (September 1.067 OPS from the leadoff guy!) I used to argue before this year that Ellsbury was a better Carl Crawford with less power. I was wrong he is just a better Carl Crawford even though his numbers are likely to normalize a little in 2012 having two years of control left on this guy is a happy.

    Scutaro proved to us while he is not a star and is not without limitations he is a nice professional ballplayer to have on your team.

    A-Gon faded sure. Too many games for the rigors of a schedule that has so few getaway day games and perhaps some fatigue from coming off of surgery last winter but that guy can hit, hit to all fields and is a fabulous defender. he is fun to watch.

    Get past the KFC and beer club and the late fade, Josh Beckett had a terrific season overall. He isn't without faults but he has always been a guy who owns his bad performances, wants the ball when its tough and while he'll never get any style points now for it rushed back from the ankle injury to try and get it done. 2.89 ERA - 1.026 ERA - 3.37 SO/BB and 8.2 S0/9.

    Aceves. I think for all but the insane, that says it all. Spot start, middle, short relief, GREAT year.

    Pedey. While I am not as sure that Dustin will age as well in mid 30's as some who project him as a future HOFer because his hitting is so hand and eye coordination driven (it is remarkable how hard he drives pitches up in his eyes) he is only 27. The guy is just a joy to watch, his September while as stunning as Jacoby's was terrific and I don't think a lot of folks every thought he'd get over the .300 mark where he was after May. The little guy is as big as the hype IMO.

    Not without warts and speed bumps the catching tandem worked out OK in 2011. Salty may never be the hype that surrounded him at 21 bu the kid can play. And if this was Tek's final lap with the RS it wasn't a bad year at all.

    While it may have been Ortiz and Papelbon last acts in Boston they both had fine years. Ortiz has been much celebrated in Boston perhaps more so than Papelbon. If that was Papelbon's last year in Boston what a nice run. His 2011 is best expressed IMHO by his 0.933 WHIP - 8.70 SO/BB. Great years for both and whatever happens both guys wore the RS quite well in their careers.

    There were lots of others of course but to me these were the biggest headliners. I know I probably missed some but you know, the glass was and is more than half full.


     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    The stuff about Francona is disgusting IMO. Even if it was true, it served little purpose to publish after than man has left as gracefully as he did. That is my real objection here BTW, it is National Inquirer quality trash!

                                                                    Katz


    This perfectly states my reaction to it as well. The Globe can justify the echo chamber of low-grade hack writing by it's own regression over the years.

    On the subject of how well this team will be forgiven and forgotten, I do think focus will change as fans get involved in winter player movement. Players in ST might feel uneasy about intrusive questions.
    But how the team starts 2012 is important.

    I think you put much of this stuff in perspective with your lengthy post. If ever you were to start another thread, Katz, simply use that post as UR OP. It may have included more of the truth than we will ever read in the press.

    I could tell stories about life on teams off the field at lower levels that would blow away anything written thus far on the Sox. In fact, it wouldn't be fit for print. Ya have to be exposed to it to know where I'm coming from.

     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#sectionType=st&playerType=QUALIFIER&statType=hitting&page_type=SortablePlayer&season=2011&season_type=ANY&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&split=&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position=&sortOrder='desc'&sortColumn=np&results=&page=1&perPage=50&timeframe=&extended=1&last_x_days=&ts=1318650114515&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+hitting
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Hill, I couldn't get the link to transfer.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : Hill , I couldn't get the link to transfer.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    It works for me:
    http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#sectionType=st&playerType=QUALIFIER&statType=hitting&page_type=SortablePlayer&season=2011&season_type=ANY&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&split=&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position=&sortOrder='desc'&sortColumn=np&results=&page=1&perPage=50&timeframe=&extended=1&last_x_days=&ts=1318650114515&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+hitting
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : It works for me: http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/sortable.jsp?c_id=mlb&tcid=mm_mlb_stats#sectionType=st&playerType=QUALIFIER&statType=hitting&page_type=SortablePlayer&season=2011&season_type=ANY&sportCode='mlb'&league_code='MLB'&split=&team_id=&active_sw=&game_type='R'&position=&sortOrder='desc'&sortColumn=np&results=&page=1&perPage=50&timeframe=&extended=1&last_x_days=&ts=1318650114515&tab_level=child&click_text=Sortable+Team+hitting
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]


    I'm only getting the MLB top part of the page.
    The link doesn't finish.
    Anyway, what were you alluding to?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Posts: 1076
    First: 8/13/2010
    Last: 10/14/2011
    The sceptics are sceptical,

    the conspiracists  are conspiratorial,

    and the pragmatic are right (as usual).



    The voice of reason, 5Katz is spot on because he is pragmatic (dealing or concerned with facts or actual occurrences).

    "The Sox petered out and collapsed, and finished where they deserved to finish. In ignominy. The errors of their ways caught up with them. Justice was served."

    What does this even mean? 

    The infamous Globe article is full of gossip that frankly I hoped to leave in High School.  Beckett's 2003 manager went on record that he had the same problems with him then, and look what he did in the WS that year.

    Pitcher fitness?  Look at Sabathia, Tiant, ....................

    As someone who has worked with pro athletes for 13 years, winning cures all.  Beckett, Penny, Lackey,...... are all just big kids as I would say 75% of the hundreds of pros I have met are. Spoiled to the core, especially if the talent was evident from an early age.

    I travelled and worked for a guy who was the second fastest human in the world, at the time.  He ate pizza and drank beer quite a bit when I was around him.

    I have cited Tito's discipline problem long ago, but on the flip side his player first approach probably helped in other ways. The poor baserunning by Ellsbury and Pedroia, DMac missing cut-offs, Scutaro having a little league moment, and Ortiz failing to go hard out of the box were nothing new. The pitching disappearing was!


    Tom: Here's more from Henry himself:



    On the team's September collapse: "What happened is that our starting pitchers had a 7.08 ERA. ... It was all seven of these guys. ... I didn't see one player out there who wasn't busting his azz to try and win games."

    On Josh Beckett: "He's one of the most competitive guys I've ever met."

    Source: Globe's EXTRA BASES - from a Henry interview.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : I'm only getting the MLB top part of the page. The link doesn't finish. Anyway, what were you alluding to?
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]
    The stats in fact support your contention by showing that the Red Sox led the entire majors by a considerable margin in the number of pitches seen.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : The stats in fact support your contention by showing that the Red Sox led the entire majors by a considerable margin in the number of pitches seen.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for that, Hill. My PC doesn't always function as well as I'd like.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : The stats in fact support your contention by showing that the Red Sox led the entire majors by a considerable margin in the number of pitches seen.
    Posted by hill55[/QUOTE]And let's face it, while Beckett had a really good season he is a human rain delay with a runner OB too.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    We need 5 Wakes and we'd lead the AL in short game times.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : Thanks for that, Hill . My PC doesn't always function as well as I'd like.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Among other things....

     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]Thanks for the insightful reply, katz. I'm sure ownership and the new GM will probably know more than us about what truly went on and if some "bad apples" need to be removed from the "barrel". Since we have so many FAs to be and option players, it might be hard to ever know if management let them walk because of their attitude or just because they are doing what Sox GMs have done recently, assign a value to our own player, minus the value of the comp picks we'll get by letting them walk, and then offer the "lowball" offer and watch them walk. There will be rampant second guessingif Papi walks for example. Befor any of this latest much came out, many were talking about letting Papi walk. Now, if he walks, many will blame his role in the "collapse" as the main reason he was "run out of town". It's going to get worse here on this site, not better.


    Papi walking may have to do with the press, as I believe he stated as much. I do agree with you about this cr@p getting worse on this site. This place is making the press look like Pulitzer winners.


    Every player will be srutinized, torn down and apart. My God, even Pedey is being called a "liar". This is like McCarthyism.I do think we could see a Sox team with no Papi, no Youk, no Wake/VTek, and a few others and still be highly competitive next year and beyond with some creative work by the new GM (like 3-way deals).

    It just as bad as McCarthyism. And the driving force is something writers like Rod Serling constantly wrote about (in live T.V., Twilight Zone, and in films).


    I can see the baseball merit for moving several of our players that have nothing to do with clubhouse antics. We are an old team, an unconditioned team, an unbalanced team (too many LHBs), and a poor fielding team in crucial areas (SS, 3B and C). There's lots of work to do, even if we brought everyone back.
    Posted by moonslav59

    One thing Theo was really good was the art of the 3-way (and at times 4-way) deal. His creativity and dedication will be hard to replace.
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : Among other things....
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    See it for yourself folks.
    The little needler persists with refusing to grow up.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    ...One thing Theo was really good was the art of the 3-way (and at times 4-way)...

    harness. I never expected you to stoop this low with unsubstantiated claims about Theo's personal life. I am shocked! 

    You are no better than the Globe hacks!



    Tongue Out
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Frown
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]I've waited a while to comment myself, but I have read all the comments to date on this new thread. I see two intertwined issues, the collapse of the team in September, and the media frenzy regarding said collapse. I'll address the media issue first, because it is the most top of mind, and the simpler of the two issues.  I read the Hohler pieceafter having heard of it on the radio. There were really only two pieces of "news" in the story, the club's dissatisfaction with playing the double-header and ownership's attempt to sugarcoat it, and the Francona personal issues. Bringing Tito's personal issues up is, in my opinion, the lowest and sleaziest form of "journalism" and reeks of everything that's difficult about playing in Boston where the Globe and Herald now compete with two talk-radio stations to be more cutting edge and controversial, usually at the players' and management's peril.

    Well said Jid. I think UR take is accurate.


    It sure makes selling this market to a potential free agent more difficult. Everything else in the Hohler piece was sensationalized rehashing of rumors and stories that, while making the players far less likable, had less to do with the collapse than the writer tries to imply.  

    It may very well have such long-reaching consequences. I truly hope the seeds sewn within the collapse and the correlating press monster don't reap 86 more years of futility.


    So why the collapse? The seeds for this were planted while the team was flourishing, and maybe even years earlier during Tito's watch. In my opinion, the lack of focus on winning each and every game created an atmosphere in which fundamentals played a smaller role than talent, and when the pitching injuries mounted and the starting rotation completely blew up, the switch to committing to win every night could not be easily turned on.

    Highly perceptive and well stated.


    The team could score in bunches, but could not manufacture one run when needed, because they were not fundamentally sound. They could make dramatic defensive plays, but did not execute fundamentally sound cut-offs, relays, pitch-outs, etc. when stopping one run could have meant a win. 

    This chimes with Moon's position regarding 1-run games.
    I admit, it has merit. But the 2004/2007 team both had lousy records in one-run games. It's a tough call.


    But most importantly, they did not pitch well! I do not buy that conditioning was the only reason. They did not pitch smartly; many stubbornly stuck with secondary pitches instead of relying on the pitches that got them here. The pitching coach has to take the hit on that count.

    I took this position months ago. A pitching coach who doesn't cut it is like a poor trainer in that he can suffocate a horse's skill-set. A great one can have the opposite affect.




    They rolled out a rookie catcher who wore out as the season wore on and they never fully prepared him for managing the staff through thick and thin. Yes there was a lot of bad luck, Dice, Buch, many bull pen injuries, but there were also too many terrible performances from almost everybody. Again, Curt Young was not able to spot mechanical flaws and make corrections that needed to be made.

    This was just part of his negative affect. I think it runs much, much deeper.

    So where do we go? I agree with a few here that the team is much closer to the team that won 67% of their games for four months than the team we saw in September. The changes I would make (some have already been done.) are as follows... 1) Tito has to go. I said in paragraph one that the media story and the collapse are intertwined and I truly believe that Tito wanted out of this lunacy and the players knew he was a lame-duck and tuned him out.  2) Curt Young has to go! I doubt it would happen, but how about picking up the Larusso/Duncan combo after the playoffs?  3) Lackey has to go. No news here; he does not have the temperment to succeed here. I still believe in the Beckett, Lester, Buch top of the rotation and would use Lowrie/Reddick as bait to enhance rotation as well as free agency.  4) I would bid a fond farewell to both Tek and Wake, not that either of them performed so poorly in 2011, but we need to look forward. Lavarnway may have to start 2012 in AAA to get more experience but there are a few young, defensive catchers who can back up Salty until Lavarnway is ready to make Salty the back-up.  5) Pick up option on Scutaro and try to resign both Paps and Ortiz. I would also try to move Lowrie and keep Aviles as the back-up infielder.   6) Try to lock up Ellsbury and add a right-handed outfielder. (Francouer? Cudyer?)  7) Lay down the law in Spring Training regarding conditioning and behaviors, and be consistent throughout the organization in how both are implemented.
    Posted by jidgef

    Everyone has their won GM remedies for 2012. I don't get into the GM thing but I do think fielding a short-stop who can really cut it with the glove should be a priority. I don't avocate Scut's return for this reason. Perhaps the most important priority is what the FO will prioritize after the musical chairs stop.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : What crickets? Get a grip. I don't start posting till late. How many times do you have to be told the same thing? I simply asked you about Hohler's several awards you mentioned. I wasn't referring to the same piece. I'm talking about how many awards has Hohler won through out his illustrious  career as a writer. Certainly he must have other accolades from all the other articles he has written. Where are they? You were foolish enough to support 791's writing, when he botched that interview. Tell me, do you think Tom Selleck rivals Paul Newman or Pacino or Hoffman as great actors? Exposing you is easy. Seeing you squirm is entertaining.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Zero facts from you. 3 awards from me. You do the math....or get someone to help you. To you he's always been  hack. You knew nothing about him but slimed him from the start. Typical "hack" job from you.
     
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    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : I agree on Papi being assumed as being assumed it will be because he's clubhouse poison and it probably would be more about duration of a deal and how badly it would go with him if his role if he had to be reduced over that duration plus what ever he benefits are of two picks and having a more rotational approach versus a single professional DH. Now if he goes I think there becomes a strong argument for Youk to stay on this very LH centric team and for Youk, A-Gon and perhaps one or two others rotated through DH. Playing A-Gon 158 games on a RS-NYY type of travel schedule took its toll. Youk is a really gritty fellow but he has never been a iron man and a rotational DH may benefit the RS in lots of ways if the best DH of his generation if not of all time moves on from Boston for a twilight contract. I can see arguments either way for both Tek and Wake and they both of course have personal decisions to make too. Papelbon is going to be about money and years. It has been awhile since a closer contract went past 3 years so there may be more traction here than some think. But talking to almost any member of the RS about a new contract today would be a tough nut to crack. I think to a man they are shocked just how toxic the reaction has been to the collapse, how long it has lasted and how wide and deep it is cutting into everybody in the organization. Tonight if I were a RS player I'd question playing in this city honestly. Where it starts to get nutty to me is when people start talking about trading Ellsbury with current OF depth chart and two years of control left, trading Beckett and on and on with the stuff that dominates BDC the last two weeks. If you start tying together all the calls for changes, the clubhouse kid and Pedey appear to be the oly ones with any safety net. The more the RS try to do with this team the more likely it is best done as classic blow it up and get on a 3 to 5 year plan. The RS of course won't be able to sell it that way out the gate but there aren't a lot of complex three way deals to get done out there. We don't see one in all of MLB every single season, that is how hard it is to align them IMHO. Now those you that have shared posts with me over time know I was and am a huge fan of Francona's. I also think that some of the players have to look in the mirror in regards to just how much they abused Terry's trust culture. But in the end I happen to believe that vast majority of how bad it got does end with Tito. It doesn't make Terry a bad person or even a bad manager in the next gig, but he set boundaries wide boundaries and when guys crossed them he never had any guard rails up to stop them and the team from going over the edge of the cliff. Having managed for a lot of years I get some of challenges this presented for Tito but he could have and should have told his pitchers on the bench or in the bullpen. It was hard for him to change his style and he paid the piper and honestly did so like a man. Frankly almost every report while it has great shock and awe value in RS Nation tends to indicate that with a new sheriff in town it will correct itself. Even the KFC and beer club is nothing in comparison to real clubhouse cancers like Zambrano, Bradley or our own Mr Everett from our past.  Great exception to me at least at this point is Lackey. I don't think he is lost cause as player but he sure as heck seems to be today in this market. Not to repeat myself, he probably came under more fire than he should have for his 2010 but his 2011 plus the revelations of his participation in the KFC and beers club has IMO cemented him as a permanent target of hatred in RS Nation. His rabbit ears, paper thin skin, lack of just owning bad performance pretty much seal his fate here. He needs to be dumped and it will be a lot of dead money or likely and new and nearly equal dead weight. It is better than 50-50 who ever gets him will get a serviceable pitcher for their trouble but it isn't happening here, not in this new "rabid" climate. But while I maybe being hopeful or naive I do think the RS had a talented core that through all the imperfections, the bad "chemistry" and the misfortunate breakdown of the original starting 5 pitchers won 90 games. I think they can go about the business of finding new field leadership and that Cherington will bringing a combination of continuity and his own creativity to the FO. IMO they can make the vast majority of their decisions based on baseball operations priorities and not correcting the things that inflamed when the starting rotation stretched so thin that the RS needed 8 runs a night on average to be in game and had to climb up hill two to three times every night. There was great OP about a week bfore the collapse completed. It's title was perhaps a bit insulting but IMHO the point was spot on. It was "It's the pitching, stupid" and it still is, not to gloss over the opportunities tweak elsewhere. Just my takes
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]


    Now it's just the clubhouse kid.
    Some clown accused Pedey of lying.
    Of course, I'm sure this clown will be compared to Dana Priest by week's end.
     

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