A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]Moon, I have also been on the Iglesias bandwagon for some time, comparing him to a Mark Belanger type. He's still the best shortstop I've ever seen. I also mentioned Vizquel and Ozzie Smith, both of whom learned to hit at the ML level, so there is precedent. More recently, Andrus made the jump in Texas and has learned to hit at the MLB level. He wouldn't have to mash, as you said, just low .200's and an OPB of close to .300. We've got plenty of firepower to hit for him when situations dictate, and I think we have a manager who will use greater roster flexibility.
    Posted by jidgef[/QUOTE]

    Anyone with half a brain (or more) who has seriously played this great game, knows the importance of great fielding at the SS position. It's a game-changer. 

    Iggy would do just that. And, the thought of Aviles on the bench puts my mind at ease, knowing we will be fine if someone gets hurt.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from law2009a. Show law2009a's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    m
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    If Iggy were in an organization like KC he would already get the nod.... gone here are the days when Kasko's Kiddies were thrown into the fire without hesitation.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]If Iggy were in an organization like KC he would already get the nod.... gone here are the days when Kasko's Kiddies were thrown into the fire without hesitation.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
    The Red Sox will be fortunate if Jose Iglesias is a better defender than Kansas City shortstop Alcides Escobar:

    http://www.fieldingbible.com/complete-votetally.asp

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    hill you stat fanatic!  I was not being KC specific, only using it as an example of a low market team that does actually play its propspects.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Mike Mousakas (spelling?) hit terribly in the bigs last year but KC stuck with him, they did not worry about warping his potential. Why on Earth the Sox are afraid to play a fledgling rookie is beyond me, especially where we have the offensive cover to absorb their flailings at the plate.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]Mike Mousakas (spelling?) hit terribly in the bigs last year but KC stuck with him, they did not worry about warping his potential. Why on Earth the Sox are afraid to play a fledgling rookie is beyond me, especially where we have the offensive cover to absorb their flailings at the plate.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    I'd have been happy to have Iggy and Lava in FT roles. Having Aviles and Shoppach as back-ups satisfies me. We'd have saved about $4M ($2.5 for Salty and $1.5M for Punto) and maybe used Salty as part of a deal to get a good 5th starter. instead of 10 projects. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Boom, you know I respect your views but I do think your frustrations are misdirected.  I would agree with Moon that Ben has done pretty well with the money he's had to work with.  I like his moves.  I agree with you that we probably should not have gone with Papi and spent that on pitching.  But maybe the FO thought that Lava wasn't quite ready and were unwilling to give up what Papi gave us last year--we did have one of if not the best DH's in baseball.  The money straits we find ourselves in now were not caused by the Papi move, but by past moves, especially CC.  Also, you seem down on Salty.  He may not be the best catcher in BB, but I don't think our catching position hurt us last year; I think Moon's statistics show we were in the middle of the pack or better in some areas.  I think Salty is a young hard worker who will get better.  Pitching is the key but where was the money going to come from?  Also, it's easy to dump on Lackey and the Lackey acquistion, but I don't.  I think EVERYBODY thought at the time we had a tough, hard as nails Texas thrower who was a bulldog and had been in the playoffs.  Maybe everyone is wrong, but I think he was injured last year, so we all just got on him as a scapegoat.  If he comes back, I actually think he'll go back to winning his 14 games a year.  Maybe not what we expected, but not a liability either.  On the one hand, I don't want to count on Dice-K for anything, but if he can return in the middle of the year, he might be servicable enough so we can put Aceves back in the pen.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Crit, nice post. 

    I'd like to add that there are a lot of options we could have tried had we not brought Papi back. 

    1) Use Lava at DH and spend $15M on a starter, reliever, and better RF'er.

    2) Used Youk at DH and spent on a 3Bman and/or starter. (Or use Aviles/Punto/Middlebrooks at 3B and use all the money on pitching)

    3) Used Youk and Lava at DH.

    4) Signed a guy like Thome or Vladdy and used the difference on a starter.


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In response to "Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I": [QUOTE]Boom, you know I respect your views but I do think your frustrations are misdirected.  I would agree with Moon that Ben has done pretty well with the money he's had to work with.  I like his moves.  I agree with you that we probably should not have gone with Papi and spent that on pitching.  But maybe the FO thought that Lava wasn't quite ready and were unwilling to give up what Papi gave us last year--we did have one of if not the best DH's in baseball.  The money straits we find ourselves in now were not caused by the Papi move, but by past moves, especially CC.  Also, you seem down on Salty.  He may not be the best catcher in BB, but I don't think our catching position hurt us last year; I think Moon's statistics show we were in the middle of the pack or better in some areas.  I think Salty is a young hard worker who will get better.  Pitching is the key but where was the money going to come from?  Also, it's easy to dump on Lackey and the Lackey acquistion, but I don't.  I think EVERYBODY thought at the time we had a tough, hard as nails Texas thrower who was a bulldog and had been in the playoffs.  Maybe everyone is wrong, but I think he was injured last year, so we all just got on him as a scapegoat.  If he comes back, I actually think he'll go back to winning his 14 games a year.  Maybe not what we expected, but not a liability either.  On the one hand, I don't want to count on Dice-K for anything, but if he can return in the middle of the year, he might be servicable enough so we can put Aceves back in the pen. Posted by Critter23[/QUOTE] Great post, Critter...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In response to "Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I": [QUOTE]Crit, nice post.  I'd like to add that there are a lot of options we could have tried had we not brought Papi back.  1) Use Lava at DH and spend $15M on a starter, reliever, and better RF'er. 2) Used Youk at DH and spent on a 3Bman and/or starter. (Or use Aviles/Punto/Middlebrooks at 3B and use all the money on pitching) 3) Used Youk and Lava at DH. 4) Signed a guy like Thome or Vladdy and used the difference on a starter. Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE] Moon, they aren't going to "use Lava at DH." They need to find out if he can catch. It's not a realistic option. He's not Babe Ruth. You've mentioned "putting Youk at DH" in different scenarios as well. Again, not reality. He's not going to accept a full time or even a part time DH role. Thome? Vlad? I'm hoping you were kidding with those two suggestions...
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Thanks guys.  You know what they say about blind squirrels...Yeah, I'm not crazy about the Papi move myself.  I think any of those moves might be better than keeping Papi and hoping for some of these pitchers to come through.  I think Ben has also done the RS another service, maybe easier as the "new guy," and that's let the old guard drift into retirement, something that had to be done sooner or later, a tough job considering the history of Tek and Wake.  I wish we'd just offered Papi 9 or 10 million, take it or leave it, and if he'd taken it, we'd have another 5 for pitching. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Crit, you rascal!

    I saw a facebook post today taling about what it's like to live in Maine. PArt of the picture showed a light house and LL Bean but the final picture was off a moose crossing sign, the real Maine. I hear it's real cold up there now. Still, I miss it. Freezing cold and all. Right now, I could go for that blistering cold on my face as I trudge along sliping in the snow up the hills. 

    I also supported the Lackey signing. And agreed he got a bad rap having to pitch with an injury. The problem was in being in that situation, where the team thought he was needed to pitch. The medical staff and conditioning staff deserved to get fired. They stunk.

    We needed to have more quality depth at pitching, not less. After reading Mazz's story today about our pitching depth it's REAL HARD to be optimistic about Bard's chances this year. 

    I lean optimistic but there are glaring concerns this year. I may have been born yesterday but it wasn't last night!

    To me, the Papi signing was about NESN ratings. They are hoping he can continue to put up solid numbers. Probably he will, but look at the pitching situation. They didn't even let it go to arb fully, so he can't be cut now in ST without losing all the value of his salary. Let's hope he produces. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Just a short note on Salty. He married one of the teachers in his HS as I understand it, who is much older. I don't know what that says but I sense a concern there. Maybe insecurity? Maybe an inability to lead? I don't want to make too much of it but it is unusual and little else in his life seems to indicate to me that he is the guy we want leading our pitching staff.

    He was projected as a top catching prospect early on but if you look closely at him in the minors he was over hyped by Atlanta IMO, who knew exactly what they were doing and it worked. They traded him. The Rangers bailed on him big time after that, sending him to the minors again for extended periods where he didn't put up good numbers at all and had defensive issues ( lack of confidence? ). And the Rangers were not stock piled with catching options. To me, the data is adding up. Salty was over hyped from the start and probably never emerges as the guy he was projected to be. Just one man's opinion and I'm not seeing any reason to change that projection after last year.

    I hope I'm wrong but I don't think I am. At least he's cheap.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    On my bet with harness the current score is tied at 1-1.  Tek's the tie-breaker. I like my odds.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]If Iggy were in an organization like KC he would already get the nod.... gone here are the days when Kasko's Kiddies were thrown into the fire without hesitation.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Kasko's Kiddies!  I hear you Burrito.  1972 was my true baptism of fire with the Sox...my first heartbreak, but as it turned out just a little warmup for the other ones.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Boom, I live in San Jose during the winter teaching, and go to Maine every summer.  I did go at Christmas this year.  I love Maine and want to retire there and go to Fla. for six months a year.  I don't think I'm a year round guy anymore.

    You may be right about Salty.  I think it takes time to develop a catcher and we'll have more to look at this year if he plays more.  But I don't think we lose anything with him--seems like we have several in the pipeline now, and if Lava erupts (like that?) then we can trade Salty as it seems like teams are always looking for a catcher with starting experience.  I too am worried about our pitching and am probably too optimistic, but I keep feeling someone (Doubie?) will rise up and the new staff may be able to reach several others with new voices, approaches, motivation, etc.  I admired Tito but I actually think last year demonstrated it was time for fresh thinking and a new voice.  Nine years is a long time in the baseball world.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Nice post Crit. I may not go to Maine this summer and will miss the Maine Summer for the just the 2nd time since we moved there in 1970. I'm working on plans to go to Brazil for 3-4 weeks instead. (One of my 5 sisters lives there.)
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    For what it's worth:


     

    Eddie Popowski coaching 3B.  after being interim manager when Dick Williams was fired.

    Totally forgot that Lee Stange was Kasko's pitching coach.

    Stange was always a fav of mine as a pitcher.  As a coach, not so much...

    But i digress.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Thome? Vlad? I'm hoping you were kidding with those two suggestions...

    Actually, I was serious.

    I look at  it this way (using only examples of 1 year deals signed this year and adding $0.5M)):

    $15M for Papi
    or
    $1.5M/1 year Thome (with Youk & others sharing time)
    $4.5M/1 year Wang or F Garcia
    $8.5M/1 year Ryan Madson
    or 
    $2.5M/ 1 year Vladdy
    $4.5M/1 Wang or $4.5M/1 Garcia or $5M/1 Maholm
    $4.5M/ Broxton or $5.5M Affeldt or $5M M Capps
    $3.5M/1 Farnsworth 


    I'll take the second or third choice.


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    I was too young but I bet 1971-1974 was awesome. To think you could trade away a Reggie Smith and replace him with a Lynn a bit later, or that Bill Lee was only getting started along with Fisk.  Oglive, Garman, Pattin, Evans, Billy C.,  Brett, McGlothen, Beniquez, and on and on and on.....


     
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Aviles appeared in 90 games at SS for the Royals in 2008. After that he played mainly second or third. He was not nudged out by Escobar, who didn't arrive in KC until 2011. Apparently, that club decided that he is not a ML shortstop.
    Yet, at the moment, he is probably the front runner for the job in Boston -- unless Iglesias dazzles Valentine and shows some decent work with the stick. 
    IMO, this is a dicey proposition. The left side will need all the defense the Sox can muster. And the club, given its offense, would appear to want more glove than bat at the position. Indeed, the offense looks better on paper than it was last season. Youk is healthy, at least to start with. Better production is expected from the corner outfielders -- though it must be seen first. 
    It isn't likely that the Sox will try to acquire yet another SS before the season starts. 
    The more one thinks about it, the more one would like to see Iglesias tucked away in the 9 hole while Aviles is reserved to fill in here and there, and as a bat off the bench. I know that several posters -- Moon, Boom, Notin, others -- feel the same way. But none of us will make out the lineup card.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    Aviles appeared in 90 games at SS for the Royals in 2008. After that he played mainly second or third. He was not nudged out by Escobar, who didn't arrive in KC until 2011. Apparently, that club decided that he is not a ML shortstop.

    With all due respect, the same was said of Scutaro when Toronto made him their FT Short Stop. All the scouting reports I read said Scutaro did not have a strong enough arm for SS and had poor range.

    We also do not know why KC went with Escobar over Aviles. They may have wanted to save money (likely at least part of the reason), or they thought Aviles was a capable or even good fielding SS, but knew Escobar was better.

    Yet, at the moment, he is probably the front runner for the job in Boston -- unless Iglesias dazzles Valentine and shows some decent work with the stick. 

    I think Bobby might surprise us and go with defense. I hope so. I also love the thought of Aviles as our utility player.

    IMO, this is a dicey proposition. The left side will need all the defense the Sox can muster. And the club, given its offense, would appear to want more glove than bat at the position. Indeed, the offense looks better on paper than it was last season. Youk is healthy, at least to start with. Better production is expected from the corner outfielders -- though it must be seen first. 
    It isn't likely that the Sox will try to acquire yet another SS before the season starts. 
    The more one thinks about it, the more one would like to see Iglesias tucked away in the 9 hole while Aviles is reserved to fill in here and there, and as a bat off the bench. I know that several posters -- Moon, Boom, Notin, others -- feel the same way. But none of us will make out the lineup card.

    I still feel the same way, ex. I want Iggy as our starting SS even if he hits .180-.190 to July 31st. However, I do not see Aviles as a drop off from Scutaro's defense at SS, especially Scutaro's 2010-2011 SS defense. Scutaro's career RF/9 at SS is 4.19, but here in Boston, it was 3.83 & 4.03.
    Fangraphs shows these numbers:
    Scutaro:  -2.8 UZR/150  (with Boston it was -3.3 and +1.0). However, his rangeR is -16.2 over 5,552 innings at SS.
    Aviles: +12.4 UZR/150 (in limted action). His RangeR is +9.4 in 1,212 career innings as a SS.
    I know these numbers are not large enough sample sizes to make definitive judgements, but they are encouraging to me.

    Punto is also a much better back-up SS defensively than Lowrie.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I : Kasko's Kiddies!  I hear you Burrito.  1972 was my true baptism of fire with the Sox...my first heartbreak, but as it turned out just a little warmup for the other ones.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    My family moved to Maine from milwaukee in the early 70's. My favorite player was Tommy Harper, and when the Brewers traded him to the Sox before the 1972 season, I switched to being a Sox fan. 

    That was a nice team. I loved Luis Aparicio at SS and others, but the staff was not strong enough (Pattin, Siebert, Curtis, McGlothen, Culp and the immergence of Luis Tiant). Bill Lee was in the pen with gary Peters, Lew Krausse and Don Newhaquser, tatum and Bolin. The team was almost totally transformed over the next 2-3 years.
    1973: Yaz was moved to 1B, Harper moved from CF to LF, Smith from RF to CF to make was for 21 year old Dwight Evans. Bill Lee became a starter and pitched 285 IP! Tiant pitched 272! Curtis 221 & Pattin 219 and Roger Moret went 13-2 and had 15 GS'd. Bob Bolin and Bob Veale carried the Sox pen and we went from 85 wins in '72 to 88 in '73.
    With Darrell Johnson in 1974 we went back to just 84 wins. Fisk got hurt, Smith was traded and Juan Beniquez, Cecil Cooper, Mario Guerrero,  and Bernie Carbo came onto the scene of become major players Tiant went 22-13 in 311 IP, Lee went 17-15 in 282 IP, and Reggie Cleveland went 12-14 in 221 IP. Dick Drago and Moret were the 4/5 starters, but we saw 9 starts each by Rick Wise & Juan Marachal. Diego Segui got 108 IP from the pen. We still had Dick Pole and Bob Veale. We only used 13 pitchers that year and 4 of them had less than 13 IP! (Basically 9 pitchers had al but 32 IP)
    The magical 1975 season was marred by the late injury to Jim Rice, but I think we were the best team that year-- no disrespect to the Big Red Machine. Fisk, Yaz, Griffin/Doyle, Burleson, Rico, Jim Ed, Lynn, Dewey, and Cecil Cooper hitting .311 as the DH! Carbo off the bench with 15 Hrs and 50 RBIs. Beniquez at .291 off the bench, and Bob Montgomery backing up Carlton.  Again, we only used 12 pitchers in 1975 with 2 of them getting 11 IP combined.
    Tiant 18-14  4.02 (260 IP)
    Lee    17-9    3.95 (260)
    Wise  19-12  3.95 (255)
    Clev   13-9    4.43 (171)
    Moret 14-3   3.60  (145)
    Pole   4-6      4.42  (90)
    Drago 2-2     3.84   (73)
    Segui  2-5     4.82    (71)
    Burton 1-2    2.89   (53)
    Willough 5-2  3.54  (48)

    That was a heartbreaking WS, but I've been hooked ever since.



     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: A Realistic look at 2012: Part I

    moon - great reminisce over the 1975 team.

    I too have contended that if Jim Rice had not had his wrist broken by a fastball from Vernon Ruhle of the Tigers, things would have been different. Very different.


     



    But as Ron Washington says, "That's how baseball go!"
     

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