A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

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    [QUOTE]Big Papi was sure throwing around the old leather today wasn't he? You might have to include him on your list at 1st mr. moon. I'm not sure if I like the Romo deal, I don't know enough him as a pitcher. I like the idea of moving Youk and Punto, but I would rather get as much high A or AA talent as we could. I like the pitching a little better than you do. I also think that CC is going to come back and remind people of just who Carl Crawford really is. The thing I really like is how the starting pitching has stepped up since Big Papi read them the riot act. I think this team can contend as is so I think if the Sox were to make any major or semi-major deals they should further strengthen the farm system which is starting to turn into a serious strength.
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    Sergio Romo just turned 29, gets paid only $1.5M this year and has 2 arb years left. Prime years.

    His ERA has improved for 3 straight years:
    3.97
    2.18
    1.50
    0.73

    His WHIP:
    1.206
    0.968
    0.708
    0.892

    Career:
    2.22  0.893  (10.9 K/9 and only 1.9 BB/9)

    He had 13.1 K/9 in 2011.

    Opponents hit  .173/.197/.262/.458 last year.
    This year it is:  .182/.234/.295/.529

    He's way better than Albers, Miller, Atchison and others.

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II : Sergio Romo just turned 29, gets paid only $1.5M this year and has 2 arb years left. Prime years. His ERA has improved for 3 straight years: 3.97 2.18 1.50 0.73 His WHIP: 1.206 0.968 0.708 0.892 Career: 2.22  0.893  (10.9 K/9 and only 1.9 BB/9) He had 13.1 K/9 in 2011. Opponents hit  .173/.197/.262/.458 last year. This year it is:  .182/.234/.295/.529 He's way better than Albers, Miller, Atchison and others.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]How many innings did he throw last year? Could he maybe start?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II : Sergio Romo just turned 29, gets paid only $1.5M this year and has 2 arb years left. Prime years. His ERA has improved for 3 straight years: 3.97 2.18 1.50 0.73 His WHIP: 1.206 0.968 0.708 0.892 Career: 2.22  0.893  (10.9 K/9 and only 1.9 BB/9) He had 13.1 K/9 in 2011. Opponents hit  .173/.197/.262/.458 last year. This year it is:  .182/.234/.295/.529 He's way better than Albers, Miller, Atchison and others.
    Posted by moonslav59
    How many innings did he throw last year? Could he maybe start?

    He was a starter in 2005 and 2006 in single A ball, but this guy is a top quality RP. I'm not convinced this pen will keep up this pace. There is still a way to make it better for the short and longterm.

    I would rather trade for a solid starter, but trading for Romo might allow us to then trade Bard or other relievers and prospects for a better starter.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from patrickford. Show patrickford's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
            42.2 Jeter                 128              285       .45                  44.4 


    I thought it was a classy move by the Yanks to place a statue of Jeter on the infield while he is still playing...Oh? Wait a second...that is Jeter. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II :         42.2 Jeter                 128              285       .45                  44.4  I thought it was a classy move by the Yanks to place a statue of Jeter on the infield while he is still playing...Oh? Wait a second...that is Jeter. 
    Posted by patrickford[/QUOTE]

    Too funny!

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II


    Gonzalez did a Terrific in right field.  I wonder if the two nice catches he made would have been caught by Ross.  In ballparks with a relatively easy right field, I don't think it would be a bad idea to have him out there with gold-glove Ortiz at first....or should I call him Mr. Speedster since he's faster now than he's ever been.
    Especially vs. right-handed pitching.

    Centuries ago, I voiced my concern about Bard starting and the whole event turning
    into another Joba Chamberlain scenario.  Unfortunately, the fellow didn't work out as a starter in the minors, hence the move to the bullpen.  Now, his velocity has substantially decreased.  I don't know about you guys, but history may be repeating itself here...and, bye-bye 100mph killer fastball.  I hope I'm wrong, but trying to convert him, whosever choice it was, may have potentially ruined a career.

    I've heard very little, and read really nothing about the Ortiz clubhouse meeting.  Where can I read more info about this?  If what is said is true, he certainly is solidifying his chances for a contract renewal.  And, as a team leader, I'm sure he has the respect of all on the team.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    I think Bard will be fine... after he returns to the pen, but it might take some time to get over his bruised ego.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II


    It's not his ego I'm worried about.  It's his velocity.  If not velocity, then his self-confidence.  Regardless, I hope it's not a Joba thing.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    It's easier for a pitcher to give every pitch the most he has when he is a 1 IP pitcher. I'm not saying bard is 'saving himself" as a starter, but I do think with his limited pitch variety, he needs to be in the pen.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Funny, but I take the opposite view about Bard.  The bullpen has been going great guns since April 21 with I think the lowest bullpen ERA in the AL for those 26 or so games. 

    The rotation, on the other hand, is close to the worst in the AL.  Thus all the discussion on this board about getting another starter or two, especially with Matsuzaka getting a new injury. 

    It seems to me completely obvious that the right place for Bard from the get go was the rotation because that is where the need was and is the greatest.  If trading Youk and maybe a couple of others would bring a good arm for the rotation, most of us would be in favor.  But that hasn't happened. 

    So using Bard as a starter makes a lot more sense to me then sending coals to newcastle, which translates as Bard to a perfectly good bullpen, so good that Mortensen and Melancon continue to languish in AAA.  

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Max - Very nicely stated ... I agree.  Yes, the BP probably won't continue at the pace of the last month but it is an almost impossibly high benchmark and they do have Tazawa, Mortensen and Melancon stocked at AAA.  While Bard's last few starts have not been encouraging the bottom line is that the BP doesn't need him and three discouraging starts isn't enough to pull the plug on this experiment.  

    The silver lining is that Bard's troubles have mostly been self-inflicted ... he isn't giving up that many hits and there are few XBH's.  Hitters have about the same OPS vs. Bard as Doubront, but the SLG is much lower for Bard.  My intention is not to start a Bard v. Doubront debate ... just trying to show that Bard's path to quality starter is not that far from where he is currently.  FWIW, he has the lowest SLG and second lowest OPS against of our starting rotation.  Obviously I don't know whether or not his troubles are physical/mechanical but I personally suspect it has a lot more to do with adjusting his mental approach and having confidence in his game plan as a starter.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    While we are on the subject of Bard, I would ask moonslav, et al, exactly what your expectations are for the 5th starter?  I'm thinking he has been adequate and certainly better than Buchholz.

    He has made 7 starts and averaged a tad under 6 innings per start.  Most people would be happy with that from the fifth starter.  In fact, he averages more innings per start than Buchholz or Doubront. 

    He has thrown three passably good games--6 innings against the Indians, giving up 1 ER; 7 innings against the White Sox giving up 2 ER; and 6.2 innings against the Rays giving up 1 ER. 

    In his three worst games, he gave up exactly 5 ER's in each game, hardly a travesty although not good, and he went 5, 7, and 5 innings.  In other words, at his worst he has gone at least 5 innings and given up no more than 5 runs.  Beckett at his worse was a lot worse, ditto Buchholz.

    As it turns out, two of his best games, against the Indians and Rays, two pretty good teams this year, were both at Fenway.  And his three worst games were all on the road at Philly, KC, and Toronto.  So part of his problem might be that he is uncomfortable starting on the road.

    Given the problems with the starters, top to bottom and without exceptions (they have all had lousy games with Buchholz holding the current team record for lousiness), I think there can be no question that Bard has been a useful starter and about what you would expect from the #5 guy. 

    And I really don't see why it is so obvious he should be in a bullpen that is doing just fine without him. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    While we are on the subject of Bard, I would ask moonslav, et al, exactly what your expectations are for the 5th starter?  I'm thinking he has been adequate and certainly better than Buchholz.

    Bard has been an OK 5th starter, but I had Doubront in that slot and Bard as our "4" until the innings piled up. That doesn't change the fact that we need a solid #3 starter. I'd prefer Bard be moved to the pen to make room, but that doesn't mean he is worse than Buch or Doub. It just means he has an awesome record as a set-up man.

    He has made 7 starts and averaged a tad under 6 innings per start.  Most people would be happy with that from the fifth starter.  In fact, he averages more innings per start than Buchholz or Doubront.  

    Kinda like Wake last year, who was our 6/7th starter giving us more IP than all but Beckett & Lester.

    He has thrown three passably good games--6 innings against the Indians, giving up 1 ER; 7 innings against the White Sox giving up 2 ER; and 6.2 innings against the Rays giving up 1 ER.  

    I'm not saying Bard will fail as a starter. I know he is not going to start 30 games and give us 180+. We need a dependable starter.

    In his three worst games, he gave up exactly 5 ER's in each game, hardly a travesty although not good, and he went 5, 7, and 5 innings.  In other words, at his worst he has gone at least 5 innings and given up no more than 5 runs.  Beckett at his worse was a lot worse, ditto Buchholz. 

    Small sample sizes. Buch is still questionable, but Beckett is a solid starter.

    As it turns out, two of his best games, against the Indians and Rays, two pretty good teams this year, were both at Fenway.  And his three worst games were all on the road at Philly, KC, and Toronto.  So part of his problem might be that he is uncomfortable starting on the road. 

    Given the problems with the starters, top to bottom and without exceptions (they have all had lousy games with Buchholz holding the current team record for lousiness), I think there can be no question that Bard has been a useful starter and about what you would expect from the #5 guy. 

    And I really don't see why it is so obvious he should be in a bullpen that is doing just fine without him.  

    Let's talk in a week or two. This pen is having a nice streak, but if you really expect all 7 of these guys to continue at this pace, then I can see your point.

    I'm Ok with giving bard, Buch and Doubront a few more starts before we decide.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

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    [QUOTE]While we are on the subject of Bard, I would ask moonslav, et al, exactly what your expectations are for the 5th starter?  I'm thinking he has been adequate and certainly better than Buchholz. Bard has been an OK 5th starter, but I had Doubront in that slot and Bard as our "4" until the innings piled up. That doesn't change the fact that we need a solid #3 starter. I'd prefer Bard be moved to the pen to make room, but that doesn't mean he is worse than Buch or Doub. It just means he has an awesome record as a set-up man. He has made 7 starts and averaged a tad under 6 innings per start.  Most people would be happy with that from the fifth starter.  In fact, he averages more innings per start than Buchholz or Doubront.   Kinda like Wake last year, who was our 6/7th starter giving us more IP than all but Beckett & Lester. He has thrown three passably good games--6 innings against the Indians, giving up 1 ER; 7 innings against the White Sox giving up 2 ER; and 6.2 innings against the Rays giving up 1 ER.   I'm not saying Bard will fail as a starter. I know he is not going to start 30 games and give us 180+. We need a dependable starter. In his three worst games, he gave up exactly 5 ER's in each game, hardly a travesty although not good, and he went 5, 7, and 5 innings.  In other words, at his worst he has gone at least 5 innings and given up no more than 5 runs.  Beckett at his worse was a lot worse, ditto Buchholz.  Small sample sizes. Buch is still questionable, but Beckett is a solid starter. As it turns out, two of his best games, against the Indians and Rays, two pretty good teams this year, were both at Fenway.  And his three worst games were all on the road at Philly, KC, and Toronto.  So part of his problem might be that he is uncomfortable starting on the road.  Given the problems with the starters, top to bottom and without exceptions (they have all had lousy games with Buchholz holding the current team record for lousiness), I think there can be no question that Bard has been a useful starter and about what you would expect from the #5 guy.  And I really don't see why it is so obvious he should be in a bullpen that is doing just fine without him.   Let's talk in a week or two. This pen is having a nice streak, but if you really expect all 7 of these guys to continue at this pace, then I can see your point. I'm Ok with giving bard, Buch and Doubront a few more starts before we decide.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Moonslav, all due respect to the guy who started this thread, but this is about the weakest response I've seen lately, right on par with softy. 

    My point was and is Bard should be starting because he's the best available on this team.  Then I cited specific examples on his 7 starts to confirm his adequacy.   You responded with absolutely nothing on that point.  Instead you said something about thinking Bard should have been 4th in the rotation, which is meaningless drivel.  Then you said the bullpen can't stay this good forever, which is even more meaningless drivel because they have been good for a month and, if they falter, there is talent waiting in Pawtucket.  In no case is Bard needed in the bullpen. 

    You have a tendency to draw conclusions and stick with them no matter what--Salty being an exception to your general tendency. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    We can get a better starter than Bard via trade.
    Bard is better than several guys in the pen regardless of how well they have done the last few weeks.

    Call it drivel. Fine.

    My point is valid.

    If Bard gets into a groove as a starter, I'm Ok with replacing Buch or Doub with starter, but it still comes down to: WE NEED A STARTER! The underlying issue with Bard is this: I am certain he will not be our starter all year (30 starts). When and if we get a starter, Bard should be a top candidate to go to the pen, even if just for a rest, to return later if someone else falters.

    I get your point (position). You make some good points. I think you are assuming I am saying Bard is our worst starter and that he should go to the pen right now. Neither is my position. Misrepresenting my positions is very "softyesque".
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Nava-Byrd-Lin left to rigth tonight and batting 7-8-9. Who'd have thunk it? Who'd have projected 8+ runs (by the 8th inning).
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]Nava-Byrd-Lin left to rigth tonight and batting 7-8-9. Who'd have thunk it? Who'd have projected 8+ runs (by the 8th inning).
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]
    I dunno, Moon, this club, battered and bruised, comes to play -- even if it has a manager who is "in over his head" and doesn't know what to do with his bullpen, and continues to start that catcher who should have been traded or replaced by Lavarnway. That's not a knock on you. You have never said those things flatly, and you've conceded that Salty is doing the job right well. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]Gonzalez did a Terrific in right field.  I wonder if the two nice catches he made would have been caught by Ross.  In ballparks with a relatively easy right field, I don't think it would be a bad idea to have him out there with gold-glove Ortiz at first....or should I call him Mr. Speedster since he's faster now than he's ever been. Especially vs. right-handed pitching. Centuries ago, I voiced my concern about Bard starting and the whole event turning into another Joba Chamberlain scenario.  Unfortunately, the fellow didn't work out as a starter in the minors, hence the move to the bullpen.  Now, his velocity has substantially decreased.  I don't know about you guys, but history may be repeating itself here...and, bye-bye 100mph killer fastball.  I hope I'm wrong, but trying to convert him, whosever choice it was, may have potentially ruined a career. I've heard very little, and read really nothing about the Ortiz clubhouse meeting.  Where can I read more info about this?  If what is said is true, he certainly is solidifying his chances for a contract renewal.  And, as a team leader, I'm sure he has the respect of all on the team.
    Posted by ampoule[/QUOTE]An excellent point ampoule. I'd like to see more of Mr. Gonzalez in right. He might run a little slow, but he seems to have very good instincts in the outfield. He has a pretty decent arm too. I think you're right on about Papi too.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In response to "Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II": [QUOTE]We can get a better starter than Bard via trade. Bard is better than several guys in the pen regardless of how well they have done the last few weeks. Call it drivel. Fine. My point is valid. If Bard gets into a groove as a starter, I'm Ok with replacing Buch or Doub with starter, but it still comes down to: WE NEED A STARTER! The underlying issue with Bard is this: I am certain he will not be our starter all year (30 starts). When and if we get a starter, Bard should be a top candidate to go to the pen, even if just for a rest, to return later if someone else falters. I get your point (position). You make some good points. I think you are assuming I am saying Bard is our worst starter and that he should go to the pen right now. Neither is my position. Misrepresenting my positions is very "softyesque". Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE] With all due respect Moon, when you say 'with his limited pitch variety he needs to be in the pen' it is pretty easy to think you want him out of the rotation as soon as possible. Also why do you think his pitch variety is sub par for a starter?
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    I dunno, Moon, this club, battered and bruised, comes to play -- even if it has a manager who is "in over his head" and doesn't know what to do with his bullpen, and continues to start that catcher who should have been traded or replaced by Lavarnway. That's not a knock on you. You have never said those things flatly, and you've conceded that Salty is doing the job right well. 

    I was a BV supporter from day 1 (at least for a 1 year term). 

    The rest is all true.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    With all due respect Moon, when you say 'with his limited pitch variety he needs to be in the pen' it is pretty easy to think you want him out of the rotation as soon as possible. Also why do you think his pitch variety is sub par for a starter?

    We're not making a major trade until the deadline. 

    All winter I said it was a mistake to make Bard a starter. The experiment is not over, and I could still be proven wrong. 

    Once they made Bard a starter, I said it might be hard to move him back to the pen both mentally and physically, and that I hoped it wouldn't mess him up. 

    I do not think Bard will not start 30 games. I do not think we can afford to limit his IP as a starter and not pay for it eventually. I think at some point this season, he needs to cut back by going to the pen. If he does start pitching very well as a starter, I'd think we'd want himwell rested for October. This would mean he can not start 30 games at 6.1 IP all year. That's 190 IP. 

    Since Dice-K is not coming back anytime soon, the rotation will saty as it is until someone gets hurt or if Buch continues his woes.

    The "pitch variety" position is secondary. I think Bard's repertoire is better suited for set-up work.

    In short, I want a solid starter that is clearly better than Buch, Bard and Doub. We can work out which one sits if and when the time comes.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Buch's start tonight is making me think Cook might get another chance at the rotation. I would never send Buch to the pen but if this keeps up his most valuable spot for this team may be the DL or AAA.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]Buch's start tonight is making me think Cook might get another chance at the rotation. I would never send Buch to the pen but if this keeps up his most valuable spot for this team may be the DL or AAA.
    Posted by 111SoxFan111[/QUOTE]Does he have any options? A Rhode Island or Maine vacation might be just what he needs.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 111SoxFan111. Show 111SoxFan111's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    He has an option. If he goes to Pawtucket maybe he can return to Boston through the same magic portal Miller did.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Does he have any options? 

    Soxprospects sayd he has 1 left (oaw*).
     

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