A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Well I think Papi will be back if he keeps playing the way he has been so far this year, so that takes care of $15M or so. Just out of curiousity who do you think we could pick up for Ells and Crawford? I do think Ben is going to have a lot more flexibility next year than he had this year. So far Middlebrooks hasn't shown anything that says he isn't the 3B for the next 5 years or so. And I like Lavarnaway and whoever better than Salty at C. Hopefully Iggy can at least start to figure out what that stick in his hand is for. We're obviously very solid at 2B and 1B. Linares is looking really good at Portland this year and he was raking for Pawtucket last year when he got hurt. I'm kind of excited to see him in the outfield at Fenway. Punto is a very nice role player, as is Aviles ideally. I think there is a lot of potential for the Sox to have a very good team next year. Anyway I only brought it up because there's not much point in talking about this year's team until we start getting some guys off the DL.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Well I think Papi will be back if he keeps playing the way he has been so far this year, so that takes care of $15M or so. Just out of curiousity who do you think we could pick up for Ells and Crawford? 

    1) I do not think either will be traded, especially CC.
    2) I'm not sure anyone will take Crawford, even if we paid 50-70% of his deal.
    3) I'll play along though...

    This winter, I suggested trades of CC for Soriano or Zambrano or Zito or Peavey. They all are paid less. They all are not wanted. They all have potential to help.

    Now, I'm not sure what we could get for CC, but maybe prospects or a lesser salary dump. 

    For Ellsbury, I think we could get something very nice. If we trade him this July, it would most likely be to a team looking to win a ring and only willing to give up non-essential parts of top prospects. If we wait until winter, it could be to other teams, but we could get more if Jacoby agreed to extend as part of the deal.

    I have no idea on any specifics to an Ellsbury deal, but I'd love to get a top quality pitcher... maybe for Matt Cain (extended) or with other prospects for King Feliz, I don't know. I'm probably dreaming.

    I do think Ben is going to have a lot more flexibility next year than he had this year. So far Middlebrooks hasn't shown anything that says he isn't the 3B for the next 5 years or so. And I like Lavarnaway and whoever better than Salty at C. Hopefully Iggy can at least start to figure out what that stick in his hand is for. We're obviously very solid at 2B and 1B. Linares is looking really good at Portland this year and he was raking for Pawtucket last year when he got hurt. I'm kind of excited to see him in the outfield at Fenway. Punto is a very nice role player, as is Aviles ideally. I think there is a lot of potential for the Sox to have a very good team next year. Anyway I only brought it up because there's not much point in talking about this year's team until we start getting some guys off the DL.

    I agree, this year's team is still a strong contender if and when healthy.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Matt Cain just signed a six or seven year deal with SF for 120-140 million.  I don't think he's an option but a similar player would be great.  They have pitching in their system.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Middlebrooks is looking better and better as an option. The guy doesn't walk much but he slots into that Mike Lowell slot in the lineup very well at some point. A free swinging RBI guy with above average pop. And an excellent fielder. I'm slowly becoming a member of that bandwagon. He's earning a lot of respect for what he has done in the past year. Youk may end up getting traded if we don't turn things around by July.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]Middlebrooks is looking better and better as an option. The guy doesn't walk much but he slots into that Mike Lowell slot in the lineup very well at some point. A free swinging RBI guy with above average pop. And an excellent fielder. I'm slowly becoming a member of that bandwagon. He's earning a lot of respect for what he has done in the past year. Youk may end up getting traded if we don't turn things around by July.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom[/QUOTE]

    I'm starting to join the Middlebrooks bandwagon as well, boom. I still like Cecchini and Bogaerts as strong contenders for 3B by 2014.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    I know you and most of the rest of the crew here are not giving up Moon. We just need some positive developments to start happening and to me the best shot for that is in the pitching department. Those guys are capable of stepping up and making us a contender again.

    We can do it.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    I don't think the Sox are as bad as they appear, and I don't think the Sox are as good as some here suggest. The team is pretty much at best an 86-76 squad and likely will finish about 83-79 after the pitching comes around. When the pitching comes together (or if), you can bet the hitting will then slump. It's not anyone's fault really. The organization took a lot of heat when they more or less dubbed 2010 as a bridge year, then made 2011 out to be positively the team will make the playofs/maybe win it all. This is almost like a bridge year. Maybe more so than 2010. They need to figure out components that work and will work for 2013. Not to sound like I gave up (never once did I think this team would be a contender, first time I've thought that way since 2002), but maybe moon should just start the A Realistic Look at 2013: Part 1. 2012? Reality? Not good, not looking good.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    And please do not be offended by the last post moon. I completely and always view your insightful comments and data as strongly based opinions from a real Sox fan. So many here are completely in la-la land.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II : Couldn't agree more. You can't just let these guys dig in and take their hacks. Teams like Texas, Detroit and New York (and Boston when semi-healthy) will murder you if you let them do that. As much as it's been talked about lately I have to beilieve BV is talking to McClure about that right now. Say moon is it alright to talk about next year's team here or should that be another thread?
    Posted by carnie[/QUOTE]

    The team lacks fire, lacks personality. Beckett used to have that, but not in the past two years. No one has backed off anyone off that plate, that's very true. There's absolutely no sense of urgency in that dugout, and I agree with Buster Olney's assessment that the team has simply continued the malaise that occurred last September. 11 wins in 40 games. That's a fact, and it sucks.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]And please do not be offended by the last post moon. I completely and always view your insightful comments and data as strongly based opinions from a real Sox fan. So many here are completely in la-la land.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    No offense taken, danny. I have always respected your opinions as well.

    I certainly think this team could win only 83-86 games, especially if we are hit by more injuries. Getting CC, Ellsbury, Dice-K and Bailey back should help right the ship, but I still think even without those guys, we are better than 83 wins. Pedey, AGon and Papi are still better than most teams best 3 hitters, and I still expect our offense to end up top 3 or 4 in runs scored. As always, it's about our staff. I think we are still just one quality starter away from being a strong contender (assuming we'd move Bard back to the pen, and he'd thrive there).

    Our pen has been shaky to say the least, but some of our contenders seem to be having pen issues as well. It's a long season, but I hope we don't get too far behind before too long. I know this team will have a strong run at some point. Starting today would be nice.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    We just look like a rudderless ship to such a degree. It has gotten so bad that we are looking at Byrd now? A year or 2 ago sure but the guy doesn't look like he will ever recover from being hit in the face. We can't find anyone with a minor league OF ready for the bigs to trade for?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II


    It troubles me that since the Youkilis comments that BV made(which, I think we're grossly overblown and misinterpreted by all...especially a very sensitive Youlikis), BV's whole management style has been tempered down.  This, IMHO is not a good thing.

    Watching interviews with BV now are very sad and robotic.  He even admitted that he's not able to 'be himself'.  How in the world can someone manage a whole group of players who all have huge ego's when a manager can't, or is afraid to say what he thinks for fear or bruising an ego or ticking someone off in the front office?

    Of course, the person with the biggest ego of all is BV himself.   I'm assuming this was taken into account prior to his hiring.  Yet, the fishbowl atmosphere in Boston  almost seems a little much for BV to adjust to.  I don't know, but I guess that while in Japan, things of this nature were nowhere near the magnitude they are here.  He probably did and said things that were not scrutinized or questioned publicly.

    In a real old post of mine, I mentioned a little reservation with BV because the ingrained respect to management in Japan is different than here in the US.  As an example, remember when Matsui broke his wrist?  After the game, he went around apologizing to his teammates.  Here, even if a borderline negative remark is made about play, a giant pout will be the smallest repercussion.  It just seems the teammate/management relationship is different.

    In essence, I sincerely hope that all that has occured are growing pains or little bumps in the road.  There is no doubt in my mind that BV's intentions are honerable.  I just hope that everyone adjusts so players can play and BV can be himself so he's able to manage without fear of retribution coming from somewhere. 

    Of course, having a totally healthy team wouldn't hurt. 
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Nice post amp. I'm confident that Bobby V will be able to "be himself" eventually. Some wins would help open that door somewhat.

    The injury bug has become annoying. It's beginning to be something we need to start expecting and planning for. I mentioned this earlier this winter when I suggested we get another (at least a top 3 slot starter) top of the rotation pitcher. It's hard to plan for 2 OF'er out at the same time  though.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Good news in AAA today:

    Iglesias 2 for 4, a double and a walk.

    Lava 2 for 3, with 2 walks

    Middlebrooks 7th HR, 2 for 5

    Bad news:

    Linares has a tight hamstring.  He might have been given a shot with his hot start.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]Good news in AAA today: Iglesias 2 for 4, a double and a walk. Lava 2 for 3, with 2 walks Middlebrooks 7th HR, 2 for 5 Bad news: Linares has a  tight hamstring .  He might have been given a shot with his hot start.
    Posted by tom-uk[/QUOTE]I say bring em all up. Youk looks like he could use a rehab assignment. Who knows, maybe hanging out with Carl Crawford would light a fire under him. I'd trade salty for a bag of balls right now. Aviles is a super sub type player to me. Or maybe he could play left, or split time with Ross. I don't know about the pitching though. They've looked pretty awful so far today, Except Felix. BV doesn't look very good at handling those guys. Maybe LL could make him take Tito on as bench coach.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II


    I really hate to sound negative here, but I'm starting to doubt BV's motivational ability.

    Perhaps his technique worked in the past, but it just doesn't seem to work in todays era.  Pedroia kind of said it all.

    I know he hasn't the healthy players to work with, but his bizarre choice of vocalization, for example, doesn't give me the feeling of confidence.  Like a lot of you guys, I've played my share of athletics and I really wonder how inspired I would be to play for him.  The Youkilis thing was overblown, but even giving BV the total benefit of the doubt, his whole comment shouldn't have been said to begin with!  As it seems now, his personality is breeding contempt . 

    Jim Leland is as tough as they come, but his attitude and comments exude confidence and loyalty where players totally respect him.  As of now, I just don't have that same feeling with BV.

    God, I hope I eat my words in the future. I sincerely hope I'm wrong. Perhaps my comments are emotionally over the top, but I'm doubting his leadership ability...and, I think it's a direct reflection on the play of the players. Can you just imagine the feeling in the clubhouse?

    We are on a slippery slope here and something must be done soon...good or bad.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Maybe. However maybe its the "attitude" of the players. Remeber these guys fel apart last year and could not manage themselves in the locker room. They walked on their favorite manager, so it would appear they are not happy with anyone.

    Nobody can expect a "leader" to arise in this clubhouse as these same players were leaderless all last September.

    Same apples, new basket.... 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Update from the minors

    Cook 2.27 era
    Lavarnaway .916 ops
    Middlebrooks 1.244 ops
    Iggy 2 for 5 tonight
    Linares has a mild ankle sprain and should be good to go in a couple of days. Middlebrooks' ops is sick, and it seems like he's gotten better every time he's gone up a level.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II


    Buritto,

    It's true they took advantage of Francona....perhaps it was just time for a change.  It happens.  It was a time where more discipline was needed.  Hence, the hiring of BV.

    Yet, like my example of Leland, the managerial leadership role has to involve, at some time or another, respect from the players.  Although it existed for years with Francona,  with time it seemed to dissipate.  From what I see, and maybe I'm totally wrong, but it doesn't seem that true respect from the players has ever existed with BV.  If a personality clash existed between Youkilis and BV, for whatever reason, it should have been resolved behind closed doors.  Not in public... in essence, blindsiding Youkilis.  Even if BV's intent was non-malicious, it's not the thing to say for the world to hear.  And that, I think, is part of the problem...saying things and having to back up to explain.  How many players now are wondering what he'll say about them when least expected?  And Youkilis, of all people, a guy who has given his all for the team.

    Well, upper management has obviously put a lid on how much BV should be talking.  This is asking him to change his personality.   It's not fair to him, the players, or the fans.  But, what else does ownership do?

    So, like apollo-13, Houston, we have a problem here.  And, I can't see a clean and painless resolution.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    The starters at least look like they have hope of pulling things together. Now they are apparently looking at moving Bard into the BP again. The moment they do that another starter probably gets injured. That is the way our luck has gone for a while.

    Who would have guessed that the BP would be this bad. God awful bad. I think the starters could probably pull things together for a decent season but the pen is in complete shambles at this point. Bring up Cook and Mortensen as far as I'm concerned. Going to have to keep an extra arm in the pen for a long while probably. You know, shoring up the pen this year may never happen. It's ugly!

    Call me crazy but I'd give at least Youk a 15 day DL stint and let Middlebrooks play. It maybe helps our defense some and maybe his bat helps also. He's hot. Let's ride him for a while. Give it a chance and get Youk healthy from the groin injury. I bet the groin injury is a bigger factor than he has indicated. It was a big part of BV's comment I think. Youk doesn't look like his normal self.

    Maybe Lavarnway should be given a plane ticket also. At least some changes are in order.

    How depressing can it get when the pen completely implodes and we have already DFAed Bowden for a guy who has 3 singles so far in 43 AB this year and only one walk. That is about as bad as one can get for an OF. It's not pretty at all. The pen giving up 15 runs to lose a 9-0 game to the Yanks, on national TV, after the 100 year anniversity ceremony of Fenway. and it's not like we were much better yesterday or at any point earlier this season.

    We need to put this behind us guys. Lower the expectations and be thankful for any good news we do get. Such as the guys in the minors looking like this might be a real solid year for a number of prospects.   
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    ...Who would have guessed that the BP would be this bad. God awful bad....

    You can't subtract Papelbon and Bard from a pen and move the long man to closer and still expect the same results. 

    I really thought leaving Bard in the pen and Aceves as the long/mid guy made the most sense, and then hope that Bailey, Melancon, and a full season of Morales would make up for Pap's loss. Once we failed to get a legitimate 3rd starter, the table was set, at least until Dice-K's return.

    I paused today's game after being up 7-0, went to a movie and dinner, then came home and almost tossed my cookies. That was sick. Sickening. Disgusting. Nothing more to say. 

    I've never been one to give up early, but this is sad. Very sad.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II


    I almost feel guilty and regret writing my feelings concerning BV etc.  I know it's early in the season, Paps is gone, Bailey is hurt, Bard is starting instead of in the pen where he really belongs, Ellsbury, Crawford etc., etc.

    For me, it's just tough not getting emotionally involved with what is happening.

    All this being said, I STILL think some of the intangible blame has to fall on BV.  He may survive this whole thing,  but I feel his tenure with the team will certainly be a temporary one.  My expert wife(laugh) expects somewhere around six weeks.  I'm not at liberty to tell our wager, but I don't want to lose.

    Boomer, I think now is the time for the boys on the farm to rise to the occasion.  You can bet the farm that they're salivating at the thought of contributing and proving their worth.

    So, if I seem a little over-reactive to the whole scenario...mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

    And, if I'm wrong about BV and was given a dollar for each time it happened, I'd be on the cover of Forbes-500.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    The players need their own leader... and though I love Pedroia his - maybe that's how they do it in Japan, that isn't how we roll here - comment only reinforced the clubhouse is surely lacking in positive attitude.

    None of these players stepped up last year and none of those same players are going to step up now and save the ship. Instead we have Beckett still paranoid, Youk unapproachable, Ortiz living in his own world, Lester pouting in between pitches, and AGon as silent as a snow field in the Artic on a -100 night.

    Where are the leaders? Maybe this is where BV is supposed to step in and change that, but I think he can't. No manager can. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II:
    [QUOTE]The players need their own leader... and though I love Pedroia his - maybe that's how they do it in Japan, that isn't how we roll here - comment only reinforced the clubhouse is surely lacking in positive attitude. None of these players stepped up last year and none of those same players are going to step up now and save the ship. Instead we have Beckett still paranoid, Youk unapproachable, Ortiz living in his own world, Lester pouting in between pitches, and AGon as silent as a snow field in the Artic on a -100 night. Where are the leaders? Maybe this is where BV is supposed to step in and change that, but I think he can't. No manager can. 
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    Buritto, my friend, the attitude in the clubhouse after Pedroia's comments were exactly what you'd expect as players covering each other's butts. I don't think there necesarrily has to be a player with a "c" on their uniform. All they need is a manager who they can trust, cover their butt, and keep secrects where they belong...in the clubhouse. Without this, the structure would deteriorate and chaos would exist. This is what I feel is happening now...and mostly because it seems BV talks too much to the media.  For all I know, he may speak worse to the players behind closed doors.

    Contrary to what you think, some managers can come to the rescue. I just think BV and his personality can't.    Loolk at Madden...all young guys. He has their back and even made these wager deals with the players about the hair-style ect.  I just can't imagine BV doing something like that....ever.  For him, it would be interpreted as a relinqueshing of control....asking a zebra to change stripes.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part II

    Fellow posters this could be a terrible idea... in fact I am sure it is but what about bringing Middlebrooks up and shifting Youk to the outfield?  I know it might have been fathomable years ago.... am I way off the mark?

    Obviously Youk's playing time will be reduced when Crawford returns but perhaps by then we can see if Middlebrooks is going to cut it and also a trade opens up for Youk.  
     

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