A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III


    We can't move most of our high priced talent cost effectively. We are stuck with what we have. We should at least start to move in the direction of getting leaner and younger, to get under the luxury tax guidelines and give us more flexibility going forward. We can't move Lester or Beckett at a reasonable cost. We'd be paying most of that salary anyway. We've got to hope that guys like Lester, Beckett, Crawford etc...turn things around and get us into the playoffs mainly with what we have this year. 

    Maybe 1 or 2 deals could help us for example by trading from a position of strength somewhere like catcher or the OF. We have some great young talent coming up. We should be in fine tune mode overall but with a relentless search for a top pitcher if one is available. If it means Papi walks we need to let Papi walk. Without top pitching we have proven we are not going anywhere and no one is going to give us top pitching easily. If it's a FA we are talking cash. If it's a trade we are giving up substantial talent in other areas. Somehow, we have to get it done. Letting Ortiz go in a reasonable fashion starts that process. It is the most cost effective way to improve this team going forward. No one spends that kind of money on a DH, except us.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tom-uk. Show tom-uk's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III : Again, I do not see Floyd or Wandy as replacing Doubront. Doubront is not going to start 33 games this year or give us 190+ IP. Bard the same. My point all along was that the big 3 were not going to all pitch 33 games and do very well at the same time. The pitcher would have taken some of their starts, some of Bard´s starts (turns out more than some expected) and some of Doubie´s starts. So far, he could have taken the 19 starts from these 24 GS´d 19 missed by Beckett and Buch, 5 by Dice-K, or the 10 starts that Bard gave up when he went to AAA.
    Posted by moonslav59

    Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi noted that Chicago is "eager" to deal Gavin Floyd a  http://chicago.sbnation.com/chicago-white-sox/2012/7/26/3188462/zack-greinke-rumors-white-sox-brewers-sellers 

    It would have been nice to get a #2, but the cost would have been high.  There are so many examples like Pineda and Floyd where performance/injury is up and down.

    VORP  2012

    Doub   11.6
    Morales 11.1
    Wandy  9.0
    Floyd    8.1
    Beckett 8.1
    Lester  7.2
    Buch  1.8
    Cook  0.2
    Bard  -0.9


    Ironically, Dubront would probably have been the odd man out if Wandy or Floyd was traded for.  The 2012 story is about poor performance, Bard has gone off the boil.   If Bard's starts were replaced by Wandy there is no doubt that team would have been in much better shape.   I am sure Ben always intended to get a mid-season starter if needed, now he must be waiting to see if he is a seller not a buyer.


     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Trading CC is a complete pipe dream. Let's hope he hits this year or gets the surgury and can hit next year. Worse sign we ever made. 

    We almost got HanRam for him, and could have flipped HanRam to LAD. The idea is to trade CC to a team for a lesser cost salary dump in order to save $5-15M a year or to just pay part of CC´s deal and still save the differential each year. It can be done, but it takes admitting CC is not worth what we end up saving. I still feel the Sox think he can and will contribute more than the differential savings. I like a trade like CC for Zito, because Zito could blossum with a change of scenery and CC could exell in the NL and SF needs offense...NOW!

    Lots of tough calls to make, and some easy ones, but the luxury tax issues are a huge problem and we are not going to find it easy to unload salaries.

    I think we are currently very close to being under the limit this year. If we can get under it, we can trigger future mega-savings if we go over then.

     We are the team that is supposed to sign such contracts not unload them. Until we fix our salary issues going forward we will always be fighting with one hand tied behind our backs. And it is not going to be easy to unload some of these contracts.

    I agree, but we could unload Iggy´s $2M, Sweeney, Albers, Atchison, Shoppach and Pods without paying any of their cost. I don´t think we need to trade all of these guys to get under for 2012, but we could get some nice prospects in return as well, and maybe use them for winter deals.

    Ergo, the need to focus on youth going forward, to supplement the team cost effectively, and trying somehow to unload whatever salary we can so that we can address problem areas. Fortunately we have tremendous talent coming up. We are in bridge years now, but no one is talking about it, as it's just bad PR.

    I think we have some great prospects that will fill some key roles over the next few years. This will save us a lot.

    It's not popular, but letting Ortiz go does address salary issues and might enable us to have a better chance at winning in the next 2-3 years. He is going to cost $17 mil a year in a 1 year deal and $30 mil for a 2 year deal and that's more than twice as much as any other DH that I'm aware of. There are guys who can hit well and fill the DH spot for $2-$3 mil, who can also help us with positional flexibility ( for example the Cody Ross deal ). Then we sign a major starting pitcher or do a deal picking up the salary for a guy like Garza. Plus maybe get a sandwich round pick. Just from offering Ortiz arb again. 

    I think trading for a pitcher might be better than repeating a Lackey-like FA pitcher signing.

    I know it sounds crazy but when Ortiz eventually tanks, as a 39-40 year old DH making more than $15 mil a year, maybe you all will feel differently then.
    We can't move most of our high priced talent cost effectively. We are stuck with what we have. We should at least start to move in the direction of getting leaner and younger, to get under the luxury tax guidelines and give us more flexibility going forward. We can't move Lester or Beckett at a reasonable cost. We'd be paying most of that salary anyway. We've got to hope that guys like Lester, Beckett, Crawford etc...turn things around and get us into the playoffs mainly with what we have this year. 

    I´d like to see us sell off Sweeney, Shoppach, Albers, Atchison, Pods and maybe even Miller, Padilla or Cook... all for prospects or a player under team control for beyond 2013. WE COULD THEN TRADE FOR A PITCHER SIGNED BEYOND 2013 at a low cost. This way we could still look to win this year, but also be better set-up for 2013 and beyond. Otherwise, I´m all for selling and looking to next year over trading good prospects for 2 month rentals or guys like Garza who will walk after 2013 and cost us in budget room.

    Maybe 1 or 2 deals could help us for example by trading from a position of strength somewhere like catcher or the OF. We have some great young talent coming up. We should be in fine tune mode overall but with a relentless search for a top pitcher if one is available. If it means Papi walks we need to let Papi walk. Without top pitching we have proven we are not going anywhere and no one is going to give us top pitching easily. If it's a FA we are talking cash. If it's a trade we are giving up substantial talent in other areas. Somehow, we have to get it done. Letting Ortiz go in a reasonable fashion starts that process. It is the most cost effective way to improve this team going forward. No one spends that kind of money on a DH, except us.

    I see your point, and with Lava in the wings and Ross probably wanting to stay in Boston, we could save alot by saying goodbye to Papi.



     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III : Ken Rosenthal and Jon Paul Morosi noted that  Chicago is "eager" to deal Gavin Floyd  a   http://chicago.sbnation.com/chicago-white-sox/2012/7/26/3188462/zack-greinke-rumors-white-sox-brewers-sellers   It would have been nice to get a #2, but the cost would have been high.  There are so many examples like Pineda and Floyd where performance/injury is up and down. VORP  2012 
    Doub   11.6 
    Morales 11.1 
    Wandy  9.0 
    Floyd    8.1 
    Beckett 8.1 
    Lester  7.2 
    Buch  1.8 
    Cook  0.2 
    Bard  -0.9 

    Ironically, Dubront would probably have been the odd man out if Wandy or Floyd was traded for.  The 2012 story is about poor performance, Bard has gone off the boil.   If Bard's starts were replaced by Wandy there is no doubt that team would have been in much better shape.   I am sure Ben always intended to get a mid-season starter if needed, now he must be waiting to see if he is a seller not a buyer.
    Posted by tom-uk

    Excellent post, tom. I just always think starters cost more in Julu than December and usually it is for 4 months less service time.

    One main reason I wanted a starter was so Bard could stay in the pen. Nobody knows how that would have worked out, but we can be pretty certain that Wandy or Floyd would have blown Bard/Dice-K´s 2012 starter numbers away. 

    Hindsight is 20/20, but I sure wish we had found a way to trade Reddick and others for Gio Gonzalez and not Bailey. The A´s got 
    AJ Cole: #5 with Nats in´11 now the A´s #3 prospect
    Brad Peacock: #16 with Nats in ´11 now the A´s #4 prospect
    Tommy Milone: #19 with Nats in ´11 now the A´s #8 prospect
    Derreck Norris: #2 with Nats in ´11 now the A´s #6 prospect

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Maybe they´d have taken Reddick, Kalish, Ranaudo, and Melancon for Gio and Sweeney. (Maybe Iggy instead of Kalish)
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I´d trade:
     Lava, Ranaudo, and 
    for:
    Jamie Shields: 12:$7M club option ($2M buyout),13:$9M club option ($1.5M buyout), 14:$12M club option ($1M buyout)

    I´d trade:
     Crawford
    for:
     B Zito:12:$19M, 13:$20M,14:$18M club option ($7M buyout)
     A Huff: 12:$10M, 13:$10M club option ($2M buyout)
     S Romo: 2 arbs left.
     
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Guys, I think at this point letting Papi walk "as unpopoular" as it will be, may be a smart move even if a team like the Yanks sign him.  I may not feel this way if Papi was still happy in Boston, or Theo never signed Lackey, CC and Jenks.

    At this point we need to put a few guys on waivers to see what happens and follow it up with a couple creative trades if this team is ever going to move forward.  We also need to improve our starting pitching and OBP as a team regardless of who we like or dislike. If a player "like Salty" can do this on his own "great" otherwise we need to look at every position under a microscope.  Barnes, Bradley Jr, Lav, Bogaerts and even Ciriaco as our utility guy are keepers unless we greatly improve our club by trading them.

    Who should we possibly try and move now?
    Dice, Josh, Aviles, Sweeney, Iggy, Renaudo, Shoppach, CC, Kalish, Nava, Bard etc.

    Who ASAP?
    Lackey and Jenks

    Possibly later?
    Papi, I just have a feeling hes gone next season
    Jacoby, because our OF is already a disaster
    Lester, I'm not convinced he can't rebound

    Who could possibly help our team if they were available?
    Greinke, if he can pitch in Boston
    Josh Johnson, again can he swap leagues and pitch at Fenway
    Garza, but I hate to lose anything important to Theo at this point
    Braun, We could use an impact player like Ryan if we trade, or keep Jacoby
    Felix Hernandez, but it may hurt losing our best prospects worse than help
    Mariner prospects Hultzen or Taylor, to have in the wings with Barnes
    Yadier Molina, best of both worlds and one I would trade Salty or Lav for
    Alcides Escobar, perfect fit for our club
    Reyes, nice career splits, speed, SO to BB ratio and much better OBP, SS than anyone we have.  I would sacrafice a little defense.   Downside? health and contract.
    McCutchen, Unlimited potential
    Ray Butler, just like him
    Choo, solid when healthy

    No improvements and we flat out miss the PS
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I think Jenks is goned already.

    I wouldn't trade Bradley, Barnes, Bogaerts or Brentz to get a 2month rental or even someone under control to the end of 2013.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    The Killer B's!
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I´d trade:
     Lava, Ranaudo, and Sweeney
    for:
    Jamie Shields: 12:$7M club option ($2M buyout),13:$9M club option ($1.5M buyout), 14:$12M club option ($1M buyout)

    I´d trade:
     Crawford
     Albers
    for:
     B Zito:12:$19M, 13:$20M,14:$18M club option ($7M buyout)
     A Huff: 12:$10M, 13:$10M club option ($2M buyout)
     S Romo: 2 arbs left.
     
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    My sincere hope is that Loria of the Marlins is in full "dump salary" mode. I think if we would take Heath Bell maybe we could bring Josh Johnson with him. Loria is the kind of guy who is certainly capable of pulling the trigger and it is SO UNLIKELY to me that he sincerely intended to spend all that cash last winter and keep that team together long term. I don't think he is done. If he is done contending this year why would he stop dumping salary already?

    Would we go way over the luxury tax guidelines that much? It's not at all likely, especially considering our situation but the price of a top, controllable starter is pretty expensive these days. Look at the Latos trade. Getting a young starter of that level who is controllable for several years is very expensive. We are going to have to be creative and I sure hope we don't unload the farm. I'd prefer to do a short term cash hit. But at some point soon we are going to need to get under the luxury tax guidelines. Our situation is difficult.

    Other teams want our prospects. It is interesting that when Harold Reynolds was asked about our untouchable players the 2nd guy mentioned after Pedroia was Middlebrooks. The value of a young stud in a premium position, cost controlled for a long time is a big deal. Is Middlebrooks worth $100 mil already? Maybe. Counting AAA ball he is coming up on 25 HR this year and a solid overall average. .847 OPS. He is still only 23-24 years old. He has great swing mechanics. He's a keeper IMO. And we have a lot of guys coming up who look to have similar potential.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    I think Jenks is goned already. I wouldn't trade Bradley, Barnes, Bogaerts or Brentz to get a 2month rental or even someone under control to the end of 2013.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Tons of talent coming up but pecious few of these guys are pitchers. We continue to have a huge problem going forward with pitching unless Beckett, Lester, Lackey ...etc produce.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    My sincere hope is that Loria of the Marlins is in full "dump salary" mode. I think if we would take Heath Bell maybe we could bring Josh Johnson with him. Loria is the kind of guy who is certainly capable of pulling the trigger and it is SO UNLIKELY to me that he sincerely intended to spend all that cash last winter and keep that team together long term. I don't think he is done. If he is done contending this year why would he stop dumping salary already? Would we go way over the luxury tax guidelines that much? It's not at all likely, especially considering our situation but the price of a top, controllable starter is pretty expensive these days. Look at the Latos trade. Getting a young starter of that level who is controllable for several years is very expensive. We are going to have to be creative and I sure hope we don't unload the farm. I'd prefer to do a short term cash hit. But at some point soon we are going to need to get under the luxury tax guidelines. Our situation is difficult. Other teams want our prospects. It is interesting that when Harold Reynolds was asked about our untouchable players the 2nd guy mentioned after Pedroia was Middlebrooks. The value of a young stud in a premium position, cost controlled for a long time is a big deal. Is Middlebrooks worth $100 mil already? Maybe. Counting AAA ball he is coming up on 25 HR this year and a solid overall average. .847 OPS. He is still only 23-24 years old. He has great swing mechanics. He's a keeper IMO. And we have a lot of guys coming up who look to have similar potential.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom

    Josh Johnson is only controlled through 2013. He is also injury prone  and having his worst career season this year.

    He'd be an upgrade, but I don't think he's the guy I want to get for some top prospects.

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I wouldn't want Bell under any circumstances other than free but I'd probably trade even a top prospect for Johnson. Certainly a Brentz. Cechinni, Jacobs, anyone not named Bogaerts, Bradley, Barnes or Lavarnway. We wouldn't get him for less than one of those guys though and some supplemental top 20 guys. 

    If we took on Bell's contract we could get Johnson a heck of a lot cheaper but then we are right back where we are now in terms of being constrained by available cash.

    It will be interesting to see if Cherington does pull the trigger on a top pitcher and gets it down without one of the killer Bs involved or Lavarnway. His stock gows way up in my book if he does.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    I´d trade:  Lava, Ranaudo, and Sweeney for: Jamie Shields:  12 :$7M club option ($2M buyout), 13 :$9M club option ($1.5M buyout),  14 :$12M club option ($1M buyout) I´d trade:  Crawford  Albers for:  B Zito: 12 :$19M,  13 :$20M, 14 :$18M club option ($7M buyout)  A Huff:  12 :$10M,  13 :$10M club option ($2M buyout)  S Romo: 2 arbs left.  
    Posted by moonslav59


    Pretty good stuff Moonie. Unloading bad contracts for other bad contracts is about what Luchino alluded to a week ago in making bold moves.  I'd like to see Beckett moved over Crawford, however.

    As for Big Game James prospects is he even available?
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I wouldn't want Bell under any circumstances other than free but I'd probably trade even a top prospect for Johnson. Certainly a Brentz. Cechinni, Jacobs, anyone not named Bogaerts, Bradley, Barnes or Lavarnway. We wouldn't get him for less than one of those guys though and some supplemental top 20 guys. 

    boom, you wouldn´t give CC for Bell? I´d do it even if we cut Bell day 1.

    I´d probably give Cecchini & Ranaudo for Johnson, but not Brentz.

    If we took on Bell's contract we could get Johnson a heck of a lot cheaper but then we are right back where we are now in terms of being constrained by available cash.

    It will be interesting to see if Cherington does pull the trigger on a top pitcher and gets it down without one of the killer Bs involved or Lavarnway. His stock gows way up in my book if he does.

    CC, Brentz, Cecchini and Jacobs for Johnson and Bell.

    I´m in. (I´d even take Zambrano off their hands as well)
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Moving Salty reminds me of moving Beltre....there is no reason for it because the guy rakes and has a strong arm....he might not be the best defensive catcher in the league but he has his moments and delivers in the clutch big hits...

    we have a porous starting 5 - lets move some contracts and sign an ace...this is not 2008...the young beckett, lackey, dice, or even Lester will not be returning...ells should be allowed to play out his contract - he is going to play hard for that free agency and who knows, if we move CC, we might be able to keep him here...

    i like our infield a lot...w/the exception of SS but there we have some young, exciting options....

    papi should move on, i think he's earned his 2 yr 30 mil contract but saving that money and bringing up Lava to play DH/catcher makes much more sense for the future....but I have no faith in Ben to do any of these things - what was the report today, that he was looking for a shortstop???? good lord...

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    Moving Salty reminds me of moving Beltre....there is no reason for it because the guy rakes and has a strong arm....he might not be the best defensive catcher in the league but he has his moments and delivers in the clutch big hits... we have a porous starting 5 - lets move some contracts and sign an ace...this is not 2008...the young beckett, lackey, dice, or even Lester will not be returning...ells should be allowed to play out his contract - he is going to play hard for that free agency and who knows, if we move CC, we might be able to keep him here... i like our infield a lot...w/the exception of SS but there we have some young, exciting options.... papi should move on, i think he's earned his 2 yr 30 mil contract but saving that money and bringing up Lava to play DH/catcher makes much more sense for the future....but I have no faith in Ben to do any of these things - what was the report today, that he was looking for a shortstop???? good lord...
    Posted by georom4


    The bold is why they didn't re-sign Beltre. Even if Beltre was better than Youk at 3B, the Sox wanted to go long term with A-Gon (he was on the radar) and Middlebrooks rather than Youk and Beltre. That's why they didn't want to give Beltre the four or five years he wanted because they figured Middlebrooks would be ready in two (when Youk's contract was done).

    For all the missteps that the FO might have done, you really can't rip them for that long term view. How will this trade look next year if Middlebrooks and A-Gon are raking, while Beltre and Youk are (old and) hurt.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    roy....the two moves didnt necessarily have to go together...theo coveted Agon...if he wanted him that badly, he wouldve gotten regardless of beltre move...i like middlebrooks a lot but beltre has been an allstar 3b since he was with us...moving youk to 3b and letting beltre walk was a mistake
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    roy....the two moves didnt necessarily have to go together...theo coveted Agon...if he wanted him that badly, he wouldve gotten regardless of beltre move...i like middlebrooks a lot but beltre has been an allstar 3b since he was with us...moving youk to 3b and letting beltre walk was a mistake
    Posted by georom4


    I don't understand why -- and I'm not saying you're doing it --people say Theo coveted A-Gon like it was a bad thing.

    Sure they could have gotten Beltre and A-Gon. But that what would you do with Youk? Trade him? Fine. And you'd also trade Middlebrooks because he'd be blocked by Beltre. And you'd also have another big contract on the books, one to a 30-something 3B who had an injury history. And remember, although his numbers were better, he also played just one or two more games than Youk did last year. 

    What is that contract going to look like in the next two or three years? (I forget if Beltre was signed for four or five years). You have to take that into consideration.

    There's plenty of things to criticize the FO about but not re-signing Beltre isn't one of them. The Sox had two corner IF'ers who were close to being ready within a year or two -- Rizzo and Middlebrooks. They had one corner IF signed through 2012. So here were the options.

    If they re-signed Beltre, I don't think they would have gone A-Gon. They would have traded Middlebrooks use Youk as the bridge at 1B then slide in Rizzo. Fine, but going forward, you'd have a somewhat injury-prone 30-something 3B. The problem with re-signing Beltre wasn't year one and two. It was years 3-4-5. And you'd have a 30-year-old at 1B.

    Going with A-Gon at 1B allowed them to have a younger veteran (than Beltre) at a corner position where guys tend to last longer and go younger at the other corner infield with the young player at the position where you'd want the younger player.

    I wouldn't have had a problem with them keeping Youk at 1B, not re-signing Beltre and gambling on both Middlebrooks and Rizzo long term, and finding an Aviles-type player to fill in at 3B until Middlebrooks was ready. But I can imagine the uproar that would have caused last year.

    As much as I like Beltre, I think as early as next year, the Sox are going to be happy that they didn't re-sign him. I think the A-Gon-Middlebrooks combo at the corners will make everyone happy.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Salty has worked out better than most could have imagined. A nice surprise. Plus, please be aware that we were spoiled by Tek in his prime - handling pitchers and delivering in the clutch. Throwing out base runners, not so much., but still spoiled. His last two years weren't indicative of his career.

    I keep wanting to give Crawford one more try. And one more try. And one more try. In the belief that he is not as fragile as it appears AND there is some real hitting and running talent inside there AND moving him would require a huge gulp of salary on which we would get no return.  I remember the Julio Lugo and Edgar Renteria contracts - paying them long after their departure and getting nothing back.  This drove JH up the wall.  I doubt he would approve another Youk-like deal.

    Lord knows what it will take to get the second WC but we will know for sure after this Yankees series.  Sox will appear to be buyers, if only to give the pink hats some hope and some motivation to spend $$ at the ballpark and to watch on NESN. The fun - if there is any - will be for us armchair managers to see what the team will look like in 2013.

    But i digress.
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III : I don't understand why -- and I'm not saying you're doing it --people say Theo coveted A-Gon like it was a bad thing. Sure they could have gotten Beltre and A-Gon. But that what would you do with Youk? Trade him? Fine. And you'd also trade Middlebrooks because he'd be blocked by Beltre. And you'd also have another big contract on the books, one to a 30-something 3B who had an injury history. And remember, although his numbers were better, he also played just one or two more games than Youk did last year.  What is that contract going to look like in the next two or three years? (I forget if Beltre was signed for four or five years). You have to take that into consideration. There's plenty of things to criticize the FO about but not re-signing Beltre isn't one of them. The Sox had two corner IF'ers who were close to being ready within a year or two -- Rizzo and Middlebrooks. They had one corner IF signed through 2012. So here were the options. If they re-signed Beltre, I don't think they would have gone A-Gon. They would have traded Middlebrooks use Youk as the bridge at 1B then slide in Rizzo. Fine, but going forward, you'd have a somewhat injury-prone 30-something 3B. The problem with re-signing Beltre wasn't year one and two. It was years 3-4-5. And you'd have a 30-year-old at 1B. Going with A-Gon at 1B allowed them to have a younger veteran (than Beltre) at a corner position where guys tend to last longer and go younger at the other corner infield with the young player at the position where you'd want the younger player. I wouldn't have had a problem with them keeping Youk at 1B, not re-signing Beltre and gambling on both Middlebrooks and Rizzo long term, and finding an Aviles-type player to fill in at 3B until Middlebrooks was ready. But I can imagine the uproar that would have caused last year. As much as I like Beltre, I think as early as next year, the Sox are going to be happy that they didn't re-sign him. I think the A-Gon-Middlebrooks combo at the corners will make everyone happy.
    Posted by royf19

    I find it a hard call. We really don't know if Youks would have fallen apart physically (and productiveness wise) had he stayed at 1b exclusively, and while it's true that it's working out to have AGON and Middlebrooks, I am in geo's camp on Beltre's significance. What I liked about Beltre that is also a bit perplexing to me in the overall--is that he really did thrive in his one season for the Sox..sort of like Bob Watson did that one season and Don Baylor did in 86. Beltre hit for power, loved Fenway, seemed to become a fan favorite, and played stellar defense, something he's known for his whole career. I think if anything he helped the pitchers with his fielding and range. With that said, the end result is AGON, who is clearly still raking the ball although not powerwise, and his Gold Glove, and Middlebrooks, an up and coming hitter. Youks and Beltre would be one year older in 2013, but Beltre would have been there last year and this year to be that one missing link....it's all speculation.

     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Good to see you, summer.

    My guess is SF woulkd take Crawford for Zito and Huff. 
     
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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Aubrey Huff also I believe has a good history in Fenway, but I'm not sure. I just remember him hitting bombs to right here.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III : I find it a hard call. We really don't know if Youks would have fallen apart physically (and productiveness wise) had he stayed at 1b exclusively, and while it's true that it's working out to have AGON and Middlebrooks, I am in geo's camp on Beltre's significance. What I liked about Beltre that is also a bit perplexing to me in the overall--is that he really did thrive in his one season for the Sox..sort of like Bob Watson did that one season and Don Baylor did in 86. Beltre hit for power, loved Fenway, seemed to become a fan favorite, and played stellar defense, something he's known for his whole career. I think if anything he helped the pitchers with his fielding and range. With that said, the end result is AGON, who is clearly still raking the ball although not powerwise, and his Gold Glove, and Middlebrooks, an up and coming hitter. Youks and Beltre would be one year older in 2013, but Beltre would have been there last year and this year to be that one missing link....it's all speculation.
    Posted by dannycater


    If Beltre would have signed for two years, I would have done that and put him with Youk then bring Middlebrooks and Rizzo up together.

    Or take Beltre for two years, still make the A-Gon trade then trade Youk with Middlebrooks eventually taking over for Beltre.

    To me, the sticking point always was the length of the contract Beltre wanted.
     
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