A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

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    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]I am not either Kimmi, but with Papi out and our staff in disarray, I wouldn't be crushed if we get the 5th pick.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]Big Papi comes back Friday. If Beckett could show some heart the team could still make a run. Off topic but I just read Jeff Green's interview on signing his new contract and he seems like he would be an easy guy to cheer for.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Where's softy with his when we score first and often nonsense?

    This staff is broken.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III


    Seattle MarinersMariners6164.48812.533-3028-349-1W826

    The Mariners have an 8 game winning streak; have the Sox even had a 5 game winning streak yet?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I kept waiting for a streak or a 9 out of 10 stretch. It never came.
     
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    Laughing
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

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    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Mariners 61 64 .488 12.5 33-30 28-34 9-1 W8 26 The Mariners have an 8 game winning streak; have the Sox even had a 5 game winning streak yet?
    Posted by EnchiladaT[/QUOTE]
    The Red Sox had a six-game winning streak in April:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2012-schedule-scores.shtml

    ... and a pair of five-game winning streaks in May and June.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Hello Everyone, I'm back!  Maine to San Jose and teaching this week.  I have missed my baseball friends over the summer.  Cable in my summer abode for the first time, so I watched every RS game.  Sorry Moon, I called once and then got swept up in summer events...Have read last five or six pages, so sorry if you have hashed this over many times.  Here are some observations/comments/whatever...

    1)  This was horrible to watch every night.  One night in middle August I think they were playing the Orioles and lost 3-0.  It looked like the whole team was running in quicksand, no emotion, no effort, no life.  But as bad as they look now, I feel next year with a new start and new leadership, winning some games would cure most of these players.

    2)  I was a BV proponent.  I think he was neutered.  Too much has happened.
    Much of it wasn't his fault but he does have communication problems.  I think he needs to go.

    3)  Pedey may be a snitch, I don't know.  But in August on a nightly basis he showed more emotion than anyone else.  He showed leadership.  He put his arm around Lester and talked with him on the bench and seemed to be trying to get people going.

    4)  Tazawa, Pedro C. seem to be real finds.  I can't believe how long announcers, etc. dismissed Ciriaco saying he was a "great story" but "it wouldn't last."  And he made some exciting plays on the field and stole bases and bunted.  I say he's an everyday player or a great trade chip.

    5)  BV did a great job with the pen.  I think each guy flourished on a "defined role" and a "defined slot."  But the starters were a different story.  It may have been because of the reported coaching wars and unhappiness and BV didn't get his own coaches.  Almost on a NIGHTLY basis I heard this from Jerry Remy, Orel Hersheiser, or whoever was doing the game:  "Lester is young, he'll come out of this, but it's NO SECRET as to what's wrong:  he's too upright on his release, not getting down enough, the ball is coming in high in the strike zone, and he's getting hammered."  Or this on a NIGHTLY basis: "Beckett has lost 3 MPH on his fastball (94 to 91) yet he continues trying to throw it high in the strike zone and he can't blow it by up there anymore."  Once again, I heard this every night these guys pitched, so I agree with Kimmi's comments here, where was the pitching coach--or someone?  This was no mystery.  And as they said in Boston all summer, "if Beckett and Lester were each .500, we'd be the wild card."

    6)  IMO this team isn't going to be right until one guy makes the decisions.  I think Cherington is very capable of doing that if Larry would leave him alone.  I think Theo and Larry were constantly butting heads.  If three or four people are trying to make a vision, then it won't be clear.  Actually I think that's half the problem with the players this summer--who's in charge?  In any school I've ever worked at, it you didn't have a strong principal, then teacgers tried to run the ship.

    7)  Moon's right.  Players change.  Careers flow and ebb.  We need a strong, powerful pitching staff and all else will follow.

    8)  Make of this what you will.  We are 24-33 in games decided by one or two runs.  We are 29-37 in home games.  What it says to me is we aren't a playoff team.

    9)  I think Cherington should have made a big trade at the deadline for one purpose: to shake things up and send a message.  I'm saying it now, but I thought it then.  I know with our contracts his hands may have been tied.

    10) This whole mess is so dysfunctional, can it be fixed?

    Nice to be back!
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    PS.  I am so happy about Doobie.  I've thought all along he had something.  The lower end of the order didn't hurt us.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Hello Everyone, I'm back!  Maine to San Jose and teaching this week.  I have missed my baseball friends over the summer.  Cable in my summer abode for the first time, so I watched every RS game.  Sorry Moon, I called once and then got swept up in summer events...Have read last five or six pages, so sorry if you have hashed this over many times.  Here are some observations/comments/whatever...

    I was super busy too, Crit. Maybe next summer.

    1)  This was horrible to watch every night.  One night in middle August I think they were playing the Orioles and lost 3-0.  It looked like the whole team was running in quicksand, no emotion, no effort, no life.  But as bad as they look now, I feel next year with a new start and new leadership, winning some games would cure most of these players.

    2)  I was a BV proponent.  I think he was neutered.  Too much has happened.
    Much of it wasn't his fault but he does have communication problems.  I think he needs to go.

    3)  Pedey may be a snitch, I don't know.  But in August on a nightly basis he showed more emotion than anyone else.  He showed leadership.  He put his arm around Lester and talked with him on the bench and seemed to be trying to get people going.

    4)  Tazawa, Pedro C. seem to be real finds.  I can't believe how long announcers, etc. dismissed Ciriaco saying he was a "great story" but "it wouldn't last."  And he made some exciting plays on the field and stole bases and bunted.  I say he's an everyday player or a great trade chip.

    5)  BV did a great job with the pen.  I think each guy flourished on a "defined role" and a "defined slot."  But the starters were a different story.  It may have been because of the reported coaching wars and unhappiness and BV didn't get his own coaches.  Almost on a NIGHTLY basis I heard this from Jerry Remy, Orel Hersheiser, or whoever was doing the game:  "Lester is young, he'll come out of this, but it's NO SECRET as to what's wrong:  he's too upright on his release, not getting down enough, the ball is coming in high in the strike zone, and he's getting hammered."  Or this on a NIGHTLY basis: "Beckett has lost 3 MPH on his fastball (94 to 91) yet he continues trying to throw it high in the strike zone and he can't blow it by up there anymore."  Once again, I heard this every night these guys pitched, so I agree with Kimmi's comments here, where was the pitching coach--or someone?  This was no mystery.  And as they said in Boston all summer, "if Beckett and Lester were each .500, we'd be the wild card."

    6)  IMO this team isn't going to be right until one guy makes the decisions.  I think Cherington is very capable of doing that if Larry would leave him alone.  I think Theo and Larry were constantly butting heads.  If three or four people are trying to make a vision, then it won't be clear.  Actually I think that's half the problem with the players this summer--who's in charge?  In any school I've ever worked at, it you didn't have a strong principal, then teacgers tried to run the ship.

    7)  Moon's right.  Players change.  Careers flow and ebb.  We need a strong, powerful pitching staff and all else will follow.

    8)  Make of this what you will.  We are 24-33 in games decided by one or two runs.  We are 29-37 in home games.  What it says to me is we aren't a playoff team.

    9)  I think Cherington should have made a big trade at the deadline for one purpose: to shake things up and send a message.  I'm saying it now, but I thought it then.  I know with our contracts his hands may have been tied.

    10) This whole mess is so dysfunctional, can it be fixed?

    Looks like a huge step is about to be made.

    I've been saying we should dump salary for a while. Softy and others said no way could we dump CC... well, it looks like we may dump him and a whole lot more!

    I'm curious to see how much we pay.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Critter23. Show Critter23's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Moon, I think this is the best thing that could happen.  As you've said for two years, our contracts have shackled us.  This gives us a new freedom.  The only one I'd remotely miss is AGON, but I think we can win with a different 1st baseman, and he hasn't seemed that comfortable here.  Wow, the salary we'd free up...I just hope we can consolidate our management and get all the chiefs speaking with one tongue.  Next summer!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]Moon, I think this is the best thing that could happen.  As you've said for two years, our contracts have shackled us.  This gives us a new freedom.  The only one I'd remotely miss is AGON, but I think we can win with a different 1st baseman, and he hasn't seemed that comfortable here.  Wow, the salary we'd free up...I just hope we can consolidate our management and get all the chiefs speaking with one tongue.  Next summer!
    Posted by Critter23[/QUOTE]

    If Middlebrooks is the real deal, we now have several 1B prospects and other positional blocked prospects to look at.

    I'm not sure how Sox management views Cecchini's fielding vs Middlebrooks at 3B, but one could move to 1B. CVecchini might be ready by 2014.

    If Iggy or Ciriaco wins the SS job and does well, Boagerts could be moved to 1B or 3B (See Middlebrooks or Cecchini moving to 1B).

    Ciriaco or Aviles could play 3B with Middlebrooks at 1B.

    Travis Shaw is one of my favorite prospects.

    Gomez will get a short look this season.

    We could play Lava at 1B and let Salty have another year to show further improvement.

    We could even use Papi in some games at 1B if we re-sign him.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    1B:  ???
    2B:  Pedroia
    SS:  Ciri ?
    3B:  Middlebrooks
    CA:  Salty and or Lav?

    OF:  Elles
    OF:  Ross
    OF:  ????

    DH:  Ortiz ???

    SP:  ???
    SP:  Lester
    SP:  Clay
    SP:  Lackluster
    SP:  Tazawa ???

    RP:  Breslow
    RP:  Atchtinson
    RP:  A. Miller
    RP:  Padilla
    RP:  Bailey

    I don't know, just wondering about what it might look like. Obviosuly we need that "Ace" and we need a major power bat either for the OF or 1B. 





     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    1B:  ???              Salty, Papi, Gomez or maybe Lava can play 1B
    2B:  Pedroia
    SS:  Ciri ?
    3B:  Middlebrooks
    CA:  Salty and or Lav?

    OF:  Elles
    OF:  Ross
    OF:  ????           Sweeney, Nava (Pods?), Kalish, Linares, & Bradley

    DH:  Ortiz ???

    SP:  ???
    SP:  Lester
    SP:  Clay
    SP:  Lackluster    You forgot Doubront
    SP:  Tazawa ???  You forgot Morales.

    RP:  Breslow        You forgot Aceves.
    RP:  Atchtinson
    RP:  A. Miller       You forgot Bard & Melancon, well...maybe not.
    RP:  Padilla         You forgot Mortensesn & R Hill
    RP:  Bailey        
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from EnchiladaT. Show EnchiladaT's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I did not forget. Can't keep them all and ...

    Aceves was upset he initially was not made a starter then the Sox made him a closer... he is not that good and Bailey will be back. His time is done here.

    Bard probably will be traded.

    Melencon is a disaster.

    Dobrant or Morales or Taz... .... I think the team stays within the organization for the 5th starter.

    In the OF you can list all the players you want but that is not an answer. It along with 1B are the only places we can ad a power bat, something the team must do. The names you have there are for the 4th outfielder.




     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    Aceves was upset he initially was not made a starter then the Sox made him a closer... he is not that good and Bailey will be back. His time is done here.

    Aceves has 2 more arb years, and hopefully can return to his best role: mid/long man. If he wants to try starting again, they'll probably let him, and he will probably fail-just like Bard.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    It's just about time to start "A Realistic Look at 2013: Part I".
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    yes, it is moon. But the big picture involves an image issue the Sox FO just created----and if you think that important players who might help the Sox would come here--then you will find out shortly just how few do come. This team will be mediocre probably until 2016. It is a blow-up, no question. But the consequences are that when you've established an idea that you want to win--and you give the fans a taste of high payroll, then slice it back to the DarK Ages--don't expect the money to be spent. And even when they want to spend it, my feeling is Agents and Free Agents will take lesser deals with other teams to avoid this Toxic Sox Nation Environment.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]yes, it is moon. But the big picture involves an image issue the Sox FO just created----and if you think that important players who might help the Sox would come here--then you will find out shortly just how few do come. This team will be mediocre probably until 2016. It is a blow-up, no question. But the consequences are that when you've established an idea that you want to win--and you give the fans a taste of high payroll, then slice it back to the DarK Ages--don't expect the money to be spent. And even when they want to spend it, my feeling is Agents and Free Agents will take lesser deals with other teams to avoid this Toxic Sox Nation Environment.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    I strongly disagree.95% of MLB  Players will come to Boston if we offer just $1M more than the next highest offer.

    They still know there is a commitment to win here, which is more than most teams display. Players like Ross would want to come back because the park is taylor made for their skillset.



     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III : I strongly disagree.95% of MLB  Players will come to Boston if we offer just $1M more than the next highest offer. They still know there is a commitment to win here, which is more than most teams display. Players like Ross would want to come back because the park is taylor made for their skillset.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]I am not as sure of this, certainly the just $1M more part. Now if the RS just fall out of bed $$$ wise like they did for Crawford players may well sign but if the offers are close, there are a lot of negatives right now to off set the difference if it is small.

    What has happened here since the end of last season is extraordinary, with everything from the chicken and beer stuff, to Tito's use of RX drugs etc. The absolute vilification of Beckett and Lackey, etc will hang in the air as quality of life decisions.

    While NY has an equally toxic environment in many ways, they are the Yankees and they play in NYC.

    I take my RS hat off for a minute and I just don't see Boston as a destination of choice for a few years as the "stink" of the last year will IMHO "hang in the room" for awhile.

    People who don't understand Boston, its media and its fans think that the whole thing has just been insane.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III : I am not as sure of this, certainly the just $1M more part. Now if the RS just fall out of bed $$$ wise like they did for Crawford players may well sign but if the offers are close, there are a lot of negatives right now to off set the difference if it is small. What has happened here since the end of last season is extraordinary, with everything from the chicken and beer stuff, to Tito's use of RX drugs etc. The absolute vilification of Beckett and Lackey, etc will hang in the air as quality of life decisions. While NY has an equally toxic environment in many ways, they are the Yankees and they play in NYC. I take my RS hat off for a minute and I just don't see Boston as a destination of choice for a few years as the "stink" of the last year will IMHO "hang in the room" for awhile. People who don't understand Boston, its media and its fans think that the whole thing has just been insane.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    I meant $1M more per year. Sure some FAs don't want to play in certain areas, and Boston might be on a few more lists of no go's, but put it in perspective: had we kept these three maybe even more players would have avoided Boston. Or, more importantly, we couldn't have afforded them anyways.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    It's far from clear that either Salty or Lavarnway will hit well enough to DH or play 1B. Salty needs better discipline and the willingness to poke a pitch now and then instead of trying to lose it. Small sample, of course, but right now Lavarnway looks easy to pitch to. As in ST, he continues not to lay off pitches up and in. Even the one at the top of the strike zone is hard to do much with if it has mustard on it.  He has time to learn.
    IMO, the Sox would be smart to settle upon one of the two as FT catcher and trade the other. The club probably should resign Ortiz, and consider possibilities for 1B.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    I think the Sox will look for a short-term fix at 1B or may give Gomez a long look this year and let him fight it out as well. I think you are right about Salty not being good enough offensively to play 1B or DH, but if we are in rebuilding mode, we may use him as a bridge. We also have Travis Shaw coming up in the minors and may move Cecchini or even Bogaerts to 1B now that 3B is blocked and the SS position my be a battle between Iggy and Ciriaco. Aviles looks to be the utility guy.


     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III : I meant $1M more per year. Sure some FAs don't want to play in certain areas, and Boston might be on a few more lists of no go's, but put it in perspective: had we kept these three maybe even more players would have avoided Boston. Or, more importantly, we couldn't have afforded them anyways.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]I don't think the trade is why Boston is not the most attractive place in MLB to play, that toothpaste ended up out of the tube somewhere between chicken and beer, Francona's drug and marital issues, AGon thinking it was the Lord's will they blew it last September and everything leading up to the media's head count at the Pesky memorial service this week. To me it has become a very toxic atmosphere around this team and a lot of that is externally created to sell ad space on TV, radio, the papers and the internet rather than the clubhouse.

    I get that they probably weren't going anywhere with over a $100M still owed to Crawford, that Beckett's situation here was a royal pain and that A-Gon was no doubt very disenchnted with the market. Or that giving up A-Gon for a couple of B plus prospects and two ham and eggers to get out from under those two doesn't have its attraction.



     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    As I have said before, I'd have done this deal for free-- no prospects of note.

    I understand that if we don't spend "the savings" we ended up losing a lot of talent and/or potential upside performance for a couple of "B-prospects" (I actually think Webster is an A, and if we get de la Rosa this winter that's 2 A's), but I happen to think we will slowly build up salary, and hopefull we'll choose right this time.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III

    In Response to Re: A Realistic Look at 2012: Part III:
    [QUOTE]It's far from clear that either Salty or Lavarnway will hit well enough to DH or play 1B. Salty needs better discipline and the willingness to poke a pitch now and then instead of trying to lose it. Small sample, of course, but right now Lavarnway looks easy to pitch to. As in ST, he continues not to lay off pitches up and in. Even the one at the top of the strike zone is hard to do much with if it has mustard on it.  He has time to learn. IMO, the Sox would be smart to settle upon one of the two as FT catcher and trade the other. The club probably should resign Ortiz, and consider possibilities for 1B.
    Posted by expitch[/QUOTE]Ex I am not at all sure if Ortiz can generate interest from a contender that he won't leave as a FA at the end of the year. Depending how smart he has been with his money he doesn't have to take the highest bid, anymore than Ray Allen this year from the C's.

    Only Ortiz knows for sure but he has floated tea leaves that he is not happy with either the management (FO) or the media circus that surrounds the RS. Let's face it, it hasn't been a fun place to play for a long time now.





     
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