A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
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    In response to moonslav59's comment:
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    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]

    Umm, my plan brings us Upton- a better get than Hamilton, B Anderson- a great arm, and a couple of nice role players in Pagan, McCarthy, Romo, as well as a promising young catcher in Hector Sanchez.

    Just because it appears we need Greinke and Hamilton, does not mean we break the bank to get them. This has Crawford - Lackey written all over it.

    I'd love Josh and Zach on our team, but their cost will mean we will be locked out of obtaining many other players for years to come. Like it or not, there is a limit on our budget.

    [/QUOTE]


    Your plan assumes that other teams will be agreeable.  There are a few top free agents available.  We have the money. Should be pass on them and try to have Ben outwit other G.M. s on trades ?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]

    Umm, my plan brings us Upton- a better get than Hamilton, B Anderson- a great arm, and a couple of nice role players in Pagan, McCarthy, Romo, as well as a promising young catcher in Hector Sanchez.

    Just because it appears we need Greinke and Hamilton, does not mean we break the bank to get them. This has Crawford - Lackey written all over it.

    I'd love Josh and Zach on our team, but their cost will mean we will be locked out of obtaining many other players for years to come. Like it or not, there is a limit on our budget.

    [/QUOTE]


    Your plan assumes that other teams will be agreeable.  There are a few top free agents available.  We have the money. Should be pass on them and try to have Ben outwit other G.M. s on trades ?

    [/QUOTE]

    The free agents available this year are not Manny Ramirez or CC Sabathia.

    We have a limited budget, so spending big now, just because we can will have long-reaching effects. 

    I'm not gun shy because of what happened with CC, Lackey and the Beckett extension. I'd be all for spending big for the right guy. I just don't see Greinke or Hamilton as "must have" guys worthy of huge gambles.

    Napoli for 3-4 years is understandable. Swisher maybe (instead of Naps).

    I seriously doubt all my trades could ever happen, but I do think we can ourbid anyone for Upton and Brett Anderson, even if we have to part with Bradley as well as the guys I listed.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]


    JBJ was making the transition to AA, it was only half a season all while dealing with an ankle injury. theres usually a learning curve. He still kept a high OBP at .373, which is the main thing as a leadoff hitter. he was never known for power, so your negative outlook with 6 HR is void and null.

    If were going to look at the second half moving to AA and dealing with the usual learning curve, we should now look at his High A salem numbers... .359AVG .480OBP .526SLG in 67 games. His K/BB ratio is outstanding, hes an above average solid defender with a strong arm. He gets on base and is a patient hitter, but you keep cherry picking stats that make him look bad.

    Barnes went 7-5 between Greenville and salem with a .2.86 ERA 119.2IP with 97H 29BB 133K 1.05 WHIP. you site W-L for pitchers and BA for hitters as the end all be all which doesnt even come close to telling the whole story, but that wouldnt help what your trying to acomplish. Besides, most pitching prospects dont pitch like MLB pitchers as they are working on certain pitches and stamina. Almost like an MLB pitcher in ST. One day he works on his cutter, then the change, etc., etc., all while making sure the mechanics are in order.

    Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young with a 13-12 record because although the W-L didnt look good they realized that he had no run support and lost a lot of 2-1, 1-0, 3-2 games with him pitching. Thats why most baseball people dont rely too much on W-L when other stats tell the true story.

    Oh, and the 2 dodger rejects who were ranked in their top 5 prospect list? Rubby had TJS which is why he wasnt this year, but was #3 in 2011...

    [/QUOTE]


    We can try to twist things and rationalize everything.  What are the chances that Bradley will ever be close to Hamilton as a player ?  What are the chances that Barnes will ever be close to Greinke as a pitcher?  The Dodgers took a ton of contracts off our hands. Why would they give back anything of value ?  If they had any regard for Webster or de la Rosa , they would not have included them in the deal.  It surely would not have been a deal breaker. Let's not grasp at straws here.  We finished in the cellar , with 93 losses. We need some major upgrades.   If you want to just defend Cherington , and settle for some more futility , while waiting for the " kids " to save the day, go right ahead.  There will always be another crop of prospects to come along. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]

    Umm, my plan brings us Upton- a better get than Hamilton, B Anderson- a great arm, and a couple of nice role players in Pagan, McCarthy, Romo, as well as a promising young catcher in Hector Sanchez.

    Just because it appears we need Greinke and Hamilton, does not mean we break the bank to get them. This has Crawford - Lackey written all over it.

    I'd love Josh and Zach on our team, but their cost will mean we will be locked out of obtaining many other players for years to come. Like it or not, there is a limit on our budget.

    [/QUOTE]


    Your plan assumes that other teams will be agreeable.  There are a few top free agents available.  We have the money. Should be pass on them and try to have Ben outwit other G.M. s on trades ?

    [/QUOTE]

    The free agents available this year are not Manny Ramirez or CC Sabathia.

    We have a limited budget, so spending big now, just because we can will have long-reaching effects. 

    I'm not gun shy because of what happened with CC, Lackey and the Beckett extension. I'd be all for spending big for the right guy. I just don't see Greinke or Hamilton as "must have" guys worthy of huge gambles.

    Napoli for 3-4 years is understandable. Swisher maybe (instead of Naps).

    I seriously doubt all my trades could ever happen, but I do think we can ourbid anyone for Upton and Brett Anderson, even if we have to part with Bradley as well as the guys I listed.

    [/QUOTE]

    Moon, the problem with these trades is that most of these guys aren't available.  According to multiple sources, the Diamondbacks' asking price for Upton is ridiculous, because they aren't "trying" to move him.  The Sox aren't blowing up the farm for an outfielder. 

    Billy Beane said Anderson wasn't available and why should he be?  He's a top of the rotation starter making 5 million next year for a team that plans to contend.  He's not going anywhere. 

    The Giants aren't trading Romo.  Why would you ever think they would?  They are letting Brian Wilson walk.  They just won the World Series and money isn't an issue for them.  Strange things can happen, but none of the trade proposals involving those three guys seem even remotely realistic. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]


    JBJ was making the transition to AA, it was only half a season all while dealing with an ankle injury. theres usually a learning curve. He still kept a high OBP at .373, which is the main thing as a leadoff hitter. he was never known for power, so your negative outlook with 6 HR is void and null.

    If were going to look at the second half moving to AA and dealing with the usual learning curve, we should now look at his High A salem numbers... .359AVG .480OBP .526SLG in 67 games. His K/BB ratio is outstanding, hes an above average solid defender with a strong arm. He gets on base and is a patient hitter, but you keep cherry picking stats that make him look bad.

    Barnes went 7-5 between Greenville and salem with a .2.86 ERA 119.2IP with 97H 29BB 133K 1.05 WHIP. you site W-L for pitchers and BA for hitters as the end all be all which doesnt even come close to telling the whole story, but that wouldnt help what your trying to acomplish. Besides, most pitching prospects dont pitch like MLB pitchers as they are working on certain pitches and stamina. Almost like an MLB pitcher in ST. One day he works on his cutter, then the change, etc., etc., all while making sure the mechanics are in order.

    Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young with a 13-12 record because although the W-L didnt look good they realized that he had no run support and lost a lot of 2-1, 1-0, 3-2 games with him pitching. Thats why most baseball people dont rely too much on W-L when other stats tell the true story.

    Oh, and the 2 dodger rejects who were ranked in their top 5 prospect list? Rubby had TJS which is why he wasnt this year, but was #3 in 2011...

    [/QUOTE]


    We can try to twist things and rationalize everything.  What are the chances that Bradley will ever be close to Hamilton as a player ?  What are the chances that Barnes will ever be close to Greinke as a pitcher?  The Dodgers took a ton of contracts off our hands. Why would they give back anything of value ?  If they had any regard for Webster or de la Rosa , they would not have included them in the deal.  It surely would not have been a deal breaker. Let's not grasp at straws here.  We finished in the cellar , with 93 losses. We need some major upgrades.   If you want to just defend Cherington , and settle for some more futility , while waiting for the " kids " to save the day, go right ahead.  There will always be another crop of prospects to come along. 

    [/QUOTE]


    You obviously have not read all my posts on this subject throughout this forum.

    I have no issue with hamilton as long as its a 3-4 year deal. There no way The Sox should give him what hes asking right now, or any team for that matter. It would put the Sox in the same boat they were just in. Greinke is NOT A GOOD FIT. Have you read his interviews? The whole SI thing? He wants a high profile contract and stay low profile. Boston is NOT the place to do that. I dont care what hes done over the years. A bad fit is a bad fit.

    Ive never said to completely rely on prospects. Im a firm believer of bringing up talent from the farm, mixed with FA to fill holes and a smart trade when it presents itself. I dont believe in long FA contracts. Theres always the exception to the rule (Manny) but for the most part stay within 1-4 years depending on player, age, production the last 3 years, and need.

    Theres no need to make our prospects look bad when you can just say what you just said. JBJ is not Hamilton as he has a different skillset. Barnes could very well do what Greinke does. We'll just have to wait and see with him. He certainly has all the tools to do it and has looked impressive so far. Ill wait to see how he does in a full year at AA though before making any predictions on him.

    Im certainly not grasping at straws with webster and Rubby. I stated facts. They were both top 5 prospects in their system. The LAD wanted Gonzo very badly and even went as far as to take CC and Beckett from us. BC asked for more and got it. I would hardly call top 5 prospects rejects in any organization.

    Im not just sticking up for BC. If he does something I dont agree with, Ill say it. I have before. I wait til things are completed before I start forming opinions. I need everything in place before evaluating the job hes done. I dont get too high or too low with each move. Ill wait to see what the team looks like during ST. Personally, I liked the 2 moves so far. I think they will sign napoli as well. If hamilton come down on years, I think the Sox will be involved.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]


    JBJ was making the transition to AA, it was only half a season all while dealing with an ankle injury. theres usually a learning curve. He still kept a high OBP at .373, which is the main thing as a leadoff hitter. he was never known for power, so your negative outlook with 6 HR is void and null.

    If were going to look at the second half moving to AA and dealing with the usual learning curve, we should now look at his High A salem numbers... .359AVG .480OBP .526SLG in 67 games. His K/BB ratio is outstanding, hes an above average solid defender with a strong arm. He gets on base and is a patient hitter, but you keep cherry picking stats that make him look bad.

    Barnes went 7-5 between Greenville and salem with a .2.86 ERA 119.2IP with 97H 29BB 133K 1.05 WHIP. you site W-L for pitchers and BA for hitters as the end all be all which doesnt even come close to telling the whole story, but that wouldnt help what your trying to acomplish. Besides, most pitching prospects dont pitch like MLB pitchers as they are working on certain pitches and stamina. Almost like an MLB pitcher in ST. One day he works on his cutter, then the change, etc., etc., all while making sure the mechanics are in order.

    Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young with a 13-12 record because although the W-L didnt look good they realized that he had no run support and lost a lot of 2-1, 1-0, 3-2 games with him pitching. Thats why most baseball people dont rely too much on W-L when other stats tell the true story.

    Oh, and the 2 dodger rejects who were ranked in their top 5 prospect list? Rubby had TJS which is why he wasnt this year, but was #3 in 2011...

    [/QUOTE]


    We can try to twist things and rationalize everything.  What are the chances that Bradley will ever be close to Hamilton as a player ?  What are the chances that Barnes will ever be close to Greinke as a pitcher?  The Dodgers took a ton of contracts off our hands. Why would they give back anything of value ?  If they had any regard for Webster or de la Rosa , they would not have included them in the deal.  It surely would not have been a deal breaker. Let's not grasp at straws here.  We finished in the cellar , with 93 losses. We need some major upgrades.   If you want to just defend Cherington , and settle for some more futility , while waiting for the " kids " to save the day, go right ahead.  There will always be another crop of prospects to come along. 

    [/QUOTE]


    You obviously have not read all my posts on this subject throughout this forum.

    I have no issue with hamilton as long as its a 3-4 year deal. There no way The Sox should give him what hes asking right now, or any team for that matter. It would put the Sox in the same boat they were just in. Greinke is NOT A GOOD FIT. Have you read his interviews? The whole SI thing? He wants a high profile contract and stay low profile. Boston is NOT the place to do that. I dont care what hes done over the years. A bad fit is a bad fit.

    Ive never said to completely rely on prospects. Im a firm believer of bringing up talent from the farm, mixed with FA to fill holes and a smart trade when it presents itself. I dont believe in long FA contracts. Theres always the exception to the rule (Manny) but for the most part stay within 1-4 years depending on player, age, production the last 3 years, and need.

    Theres no need to make our prospects look bad when you can just say what you just said. JBJ is not Hamilton as he has a different skillset. Barnes could very well do what Greinke does. We'll just have to wait and see with him. He certainly has all the tools to do it and has looked impressive so far. Ill wait to see how he does in a full year at AA though before making any predictions on him.

    Im certainly not grasping at straws with webster and Rubby. I stated facts. They were both top 5 prospects in their system. The LAD wanted Gonzo very badly and even went as far as to take CC and Beckett from us. BC asked for more and got it. I would hardly call top 5 prospects rejects in any organization.

    Im not just sticking up for BC. If he does something I dont agree with, Ill say it. I have before. I wait til things are completed before I start forming opinions. I need everything in place before evaluating the job hes done. I dont get too high or too low with each move. Ill wait to see what the team looks like during ST. Personally, I liked the 2 moves so far. I think they will sign napoli as well. If hamilton come down on years, I think the Sox will be involved.

    [/QU

    • Okay. But if the Sox fall flat this year, I want to see if you, and others, hold Ben accountable.   Or will we just hear an endless list of excuses ?  If our prospects fail to develop into MLB stars, will we just look to the next crop ?  Or will you call for some action to put a contending team on the field ?   This team collapsed in September of 2011 , and fell apart in 2012.  We need a major  upgrade . Money is supposedly available.  What is the plan ?   So far , all I have seen is Ben signing mediocrities and waiting for our prospects to arrive.  That is not going to do it. 

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]


    JBJ was making the transition to AA, it was only half a season all while dealing with an ankle injury. theres usually a learning curve. He still kept a high OBP at .373, which is the main thing as a leadoff hitter. he was never known for power, so your negative outlook with 6 HR is void and null.

    If were going to look at the second half moving to AA and dealing with the usual learning curve, we should now look at his High A salem numbers... .359AVG .480OBP .526SLG in 67 games. His K/BB ratio is outstanding, hes an above average solid defender with a strong arm. He gets on base and is a patient hitter, but you keep cherry picking stats that make him look bad.

    Barnes went 7-5 between Greenville and salem with a .2.86 ERA 119.2IP with 97H 29BB 133K 1.05 WHIP. you site W-L for pitchers and BA for hitters as the end all be all which doesnt even come close to telling the whole story, but that wouldnt help what your trying to acomplish. Besides, most pitching prospects dont pitch like MLB pitchers as they are working on certain pitches and stamina. Almost like an MLB pitcher in ST. One day he works on his cutter, then the change, etc., etc., all while making sure the mechanics are in order.

    Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young with a 13-12 record because although the W-L didnt look good they realized that he had no run support and lost a lot of 2-1, 1-0, 3-2 games with him pitching. Thats why most baseball people dont rely too much on W-L when other stats tell the true story.

    Oh, and the 2 dodger rejects who were ranked in their top 5 prospect list? Rubby had TJS which is why he wasnt this year, but was #3 in 2011...

    [/QUOTE]


    We can try to twist things and rationalize everything.  What are the chances that Bradley will ever be close to Hamilton as a player ?  What are the chances that Barnes will ever be close to Greinke as a pitcher?  The Dodgers took a ton of contracts off our hands. Why would they give back anything of value ?  If they had any regard for Webster or de la Rosa , they would not have included them in the deal.  It surely would not have been a deal breaker. Let's not grasp at straws here.  We finished in the cellar , with 93 losses. We need some major upgrades.   If you want to just defend Cherington , and settle for some more futility , while waiting for the " kids " to save the day, go right ahead.  There will always be another crop of prospects to come along. 

    [/QUOTE]


    You obviously have not read all my posts on this subject throughout this forum.

    I have no issue with hamilton as long as its a 3-4 year deal. There no way The Sox should give him what hes asking right now, or any team for that matter. It would put the Sox in the same boat they were just in. Greinke is NOT A GOOD FIT. Have you read his interviews? The whole SI thing? He wants a high profile contract and stay low profile. Boston is NOT the place to do that. I dont care what hes done over the years. A bad fit is a bad fit.

    Ive never said to completely rely on prospects. Im a firm believer of bringing up talent from the farm, mixed with FA to fill holes and a smart trade when it presents itself. I dont believe in long FA contracts. Theres always the exception to the rule (Manny) but for the most part stay within 1-4 years depending on player, age, production the last 3 years, and need.

    Theres no need to make our prospects look bad when you can just say what you just said. JBJ is not Hamilton as he has a different skillset. Barnes could very well do what Greinke does. We'll just have to wait and see with him. He certainly has all the tools to do it and has looked impressive so far. Ill wait to see how he does in a full year at AA though before making any predictions on him.

    Im certainly not grasping at straws with webster and Rubby. I stated facts. They were both top 5 prospects in their system. The LAD wanted Gonzo very badly and even went as far as to take CC and Beckett from us. BC asked for more and got it. I would hardly call top 5 prospects rejects in any organization.

    Im not just sticking up for BC. If he does something I dont agree with, Ill say it. I have before. I wait til things are completed before I start forming opinions. I need everything in place before evaluating the job hes done. I dont get too high or too low with each move. Ill wait to see what the team looks like during ST. Personally, I liked the 2 moves so far. I think they will sign napoli as well. If hamilton come down on years, I think the Sox will be involved.

    [/QU

    • Okay. But if the Sox fall flat this year, I want to see if you, and others, hold Ben accountable.   Or will we just hear an endless list of excuses ?  If our prospects fail to develop into MLB stars, will we just look to the next crop ?  Or will you call for some action to put a contending team on the field ?   This team collapsed in September of 2011 , and fell apart in 2012.  We need a major  upgrade . Money is supposedly available.  What is the plan ?   So far , all I have seen is Ben signing mediocrities and waiting for our prospects to arrive.  That is not going to do it. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    And I want you to aknowledge two things

     

    1.  It is not even December yet.  The major moves of the off-season RARELY take place before the winter meetings, sp unless you are angry over missing out on Torii Hunter, no one gets your frustration, beyond a few equally impatient people.

     

    2.  This is an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD.  Say it with me, out loud, a few times.  This board has no impact on what the Red Sox do.  The Red Sox front office does not know we exist.  Whether or not somone supports Cherington, condones everything he does, and refuses to believe he is capable of a wrong move is immaterial.   You might think the rebellion you feel towards the FO is a watermark of intellectual thought, but the fact that you actually appear to think others who feel differently are influencing the real life team does dash any glimmer of credilbility.

     

    The sad part is the anti-Cherington crowd has actually evolved into a lynch mob with a "with us or against us" metanlity.  I am considered some sort of pro-Cherington Blind-Sider despite the fact that I have never really said anything about him beyond that I am willing to wait and see.  and I have that luxury, because nothing i say has any influence on the team, and really, it is my only option.

     

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to southpaw777's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well, even with all the trades of prospects, we'd still have Bradley, Barnes, Webster & de la Rosa.

    [/QUOTE]


    That would be great. Bradley, .271 , with 6 homers at AA.   Barnes , 5-5 , 3.58 ERA in high A.  Plus two Dodger rejects.  That sounds like a great plan.  Who needs Hamilton or Greinke or Napoli or Swisher ?  We have a great future with the " kids ."

    [/QUOTE]


    JBJ was making the transition to AA, it was only half a season all while dealing with an ankle injury. theres usually a learning curve. He still kept a high OBP at .373, which is the main thing as a leadoff hitter. he was never known for power, so your negative outlook with 6 HR is void and null.

    If were going to look at the second half moving to AA and dealing with the usual learning curve, we should now look at his High A salem numbers... .359AVG .480OBP .526SLG in 67 games. His K/BB ratio is outstanding, hes an above average solid defender with a strong arm. He gets on base and is a patient hitter, but you keep cherry picking stats that make him look bad.

    Barnes went 7-5 between Greenville and salem with a .2.86 ERA 119.2IP with 97H 29BB 133K 1.05 WHIP. you site W-L for pitchers and BA for hitters as the end all be all which doesnt even come close to telling the whole story, but that wouldnt help what your trying to acomplish. Besides, most pitching prospects dont pitch like MLB pitchers as they are working on certain pitches and stamina. Almost like an MLB pitcher in ST. One day he works on his cutter, then the change, etc., etc., all while making sure the mechanics are in order.

    Felix Hernandez won a Cy Young with a 13-12 record because although the W-L didnt look good they realized that he had no run support and lost a lot of 2-1, 1-0, 3-2 games with him pitching. Thats why most baseball people dont rely too much on W-L when other stats tell the true story.

    Oh, and the 2 dodger rejects who were ranked in their top 5 prospect list? Rubby had TJS which is why he wasnt this year, but was #3 in 2011...

    [/QUOTE]


    We can try to twist things and rationalize everything.  What are the chances that Bradley will ever be close to Hamilton as a player ?  What are the chances that Barnes will ever be close to Greinke as a pitcher?  The Dodgers took a ton of contracts off our hands. Why would they give back anything of value ?  If they had any regard for Webster or de la Rosa , they would not have included them in the deal.  It surely would not have been a deal breaker. Let's not grasp at straws here.  We finished in the cellar , with 93 losses. We need some major upgrades.   If you want to just defend Cherington , and settle for some more futility , while waiting for the " kids " to save the day, go right ahead.  There will always be another crop of prospects to come along. 

    [/QUOTE]


    You obviously have not read all my posts on this subject throughout this forum.

    I have no issue with hamilton as long as its a 3-4 year deal. There no way The Sox should give him what hes asking right now, or any team for that matter. It would put the Sox in the same boat they were just in. Greinke is NOT A GOOD FIT. Have you read his interviews? The whole SI thing? He wants a high profile contract and stay low profile. Boston is NOT the place to do that. I dont care what hes done over the years. A bad fit is a bad fit.

    Ive never said to completely rely on prospects. Im a firm believer of bringing up talent from the farm, mixed with FA to fill holes and a smart trade when it presents itself. I dont believe in long FA contracts. Theres always the exception to the rule (Manny) but for the most part stay within 1-4 years depending on player, age, production the last 3 years, and need.

    Theres no need to make our prospects look bad when you can just say what you just said. JBJ is not Hamilton as he has a different skillset. Barnes could very well do what Greinke does. We'll just have to wait and see with him. He certainly has all the tools to do it and has looked impressive so far. Ill wait to see how he does in a full year at AA though before making any predictions on him.

    Im certainly not grasping at straws with webster and Rubby. I stated facts. They were both top 5 prospects in their system. The LAD wanted Gonzo very badly and even went as far as to take CC and Beckett from us. BC asked for more and got it. I would hardly call top 5 prospects rejects in any organization.

    Im not just sticking up for BC. If he does something I dont agree with, Ill say it. I have before. I wait til things are completed before I start forming opinions. I need everything in place before evaluating the job hes done. I dont get too high or too low with each move. Ill wait to see what the team looks like during ST. Personally, I liked the 2 moves so far. I think they will sign napoli as well. If hamilton come down on years, I think the Sox will be involved.

    [/QU

    • Okay. But if the Sox fall flat this year, I want to see if you, and others, hold Ben accountable.   Or will we just hear an endless list of excuses ?  If our prospects fail to develop into MLB stars, will we just look to the next crop ?  Or will you call for some action to put a contending team on the field ?   This team collapsed in September of 2011 , and fell apart in 2012.  We need a major  upgrade . Money is supposedly available.  What is the plan ?   So far , all I have seen is Ben signing mediocrities and waiting for our prospects to arrive.  That is not going to do it. 

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Ive said this before and Im getting a little tired of repeating myself. ITS ONLY NOVEMBER 26th...Most deals dont get done until the winter meetings begin, besides a couple like Hunter and Kuroda. But they already knew where they wanted to play. And a few minor moves.

    Until then, its mostly posturing and interviews. It happens the same way every year. So what I cant understand is all the complaining that the whole team isnt assembled yet when you and everyone knows how the off season plays out.

    Whether I like or agree with a move makes no difference. They are going to put together a team the way they see fit. Mine, yours, or anyone's opinion on this forum doesnt matter to them. I didnt like the lackey or CC signings, but instead of complain I hoped they did well, which they didnt. I stated how I felt about the signing then moved on. Im not going to waste my time regurgitating the same thing over and over.

    Bottom line. I will wait and see what this team looks like in ST and Ill take into consideration all the factors that went into each move. Regardless of whether I agree or not with some moves or non-moves, Ill be cheering them on like I do every year. Even the ones I didnt want here.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    If you want to just defend Cherington , and settle for some more futility , while waiting for the " kids " to save the day, go right ahead.  There will always be another crop of prospects to come along.

    I suggested trading numerous prospects for real and quality players. You claimed the main part of my plan was that we kept Bradley, Barnes, de la Rosa and Webster. It was not.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    And I want you to aknowledge two things

     

    1.  It is not even December yet.  The major moves of the off-season RARELY take place before the winter meetings, sp unless you are angry over missing out on Torii Hunter, no one gets your frustration, beyond a few equally impatient people.

     

    2.  This is an INTERNET MESSAGE BOARD.  Say it with me, out loud, a few times.  This board has no impact on what the Red Sox do.  The Red Sox front office does not know we exist.  Whether or not somone supports Cherington, condones everything he does, and refuses to believe he is capable of a wrong move is immaterial.   You might think the rebellion you feel towards the FO is a watermark of intellectual thought, but the fact that you actually appear to think others who feel differently are influencing the real life team does dash any glimmer of credilbility.

     

    The sad part is the anti-Cherington crowd has actually evolved into a lynch mob with a "with us or against us" metanlity.  I am considered some sort of pro-Cherington Blind-Sider despite the fact that I have never really said anything about him beyond that I am willing to wait and see.  and I have that luxury, because nothing i say has any influence on the team, and really, it is my only option.

     

    Well said, notin.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    Who will be the first domino to fall?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    Looks like napoli wants to sign somewhere before the winter meetings.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Who will be the first domino to fall?

    [/QUOTE]

    I hope it's not Fats.  

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    Seems the anti Ben C sentiment is getting louder. Ben is an ex player personal guy in charge of RS farm system. It would only be fitting that his belief would be to build the RS thru the farm system, and over the past few years the RS have stock piled picks and paid over slot $ for certain players in the draft. After rebuilding the RS from 04 WS champs to 07 thru the farm mostly, RS got away from that and started trading prospects for established veterans [V.Martinez/Agon] the instant gratification [keeps fans excited] way. The end result was terrible. IMO Ben is going about it the right way, unfortunately waiting for prospects is  slow process. But at some point and time you do need to trade a prospect or 2 to fill a need. Napoli and a pitcher who doesn' cost the #38 draft pick would be a good way to start rebuilding this mess, but 1st and foremost must get back to the day when farm system can produce a min. of 2 players per yr to help on avg each yr, somethng they were very good at 04-07. Lets face it when was the last time RS produced a MLB starting pitcher [Doubront 1st since Buchholz/Masterson- Not good enough] But have to like what is down on lower levels past Barnes/Webster/De La Rosa, have to be excited to see what guys like Owens/Buttrey/Johnson Kukuk/Light/Montas/Callahan might become, all have great potential and could be knocking on the door by 2015. This is the way franchises like Cards / Giants / Rays / even Rangers[while they have also spent on FA's] do it and stay competitive year after yr.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to garyhow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Seems the anti Ben C sentiment is getting louder. Ben is an ex player personal guy in charge of RS farm system. It would only be fitting that his belief would be to build the RS thru the farm system, and over the past few years the RS have stock piled picks and paid over slot $ for certain players in the draft. After rebuilding the RS from 04 WS champs to 07 thru the farm mostly, RS got away from that and started trading prospects for established veterans [V.Martinez/Agon] the instant gratification [keeps fans excited] way. The end result was terrible. IMO Ben is going about it the right way, unfortunately waiting for prospects is  slow process. But at some point and time you do need to trade a prospect or 2 to fill a need. Napoli and a pitcher who doesn' cost the #38 draft pick would be a good way to start rebuilding this mess, but 1st and foremost must get back to the day when farm system can produce a min. of 2 players per yr to help on avg each yr, somethng they were very good at 04-07. Lets face it when was the last time RS produced a MLB starting pitcher [Doubront 1st since Buchholz/Masterson- Not good enough] But have to like what is down on lower levels past Barnes/Webster/De La Rosa, have to be excited to see what guys like Owens/Buttrey/Johnson Kukuk/Light/Montas/Callahan might become, all have great potential and could be knocking on the door by 2015. This is the way franchises like Cards / Giants / Rays / even Rangers[while they have also spent on FA's] do it and stay competitive year after yr.

    [/QUOTE]

    Although we did trade prospects for stars like VMart & AGon, we did recently trade stars for prospects (Webster, de la Rosa & Sands, as well as other lesser prospects from the Youk & Shopp deals). We had a deep draft in 2012 and 2011 that hasn'r yet shown up in the top oprospect charts, but many of those players are very promising.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to garyhow's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Seems the anti Ben C sentiment is getting louder. Ben is an ex player personal guy in charge of RS farm system. It would only be fitting that his belief would be to build the RS thru the farm system, and over the past few years the RS have stock piled picks and paid over slot $ for certain players in the draft. After rebuilding the RS from 04 WS champs to 07 thru the farm mostly, RS got away from that and started trading prospects for established veterans [V.Martinez/Agon] the instant gratification [keeps fans excited] way. The end result was terrible. IMO Ben is going about it the right way, unfortunately waiting for prospects is  slow process. But at some point and time you do need to trade a prospect or 2 to fill a need. Napoli and a pitcher who doesn' cost the #38 draft pick would be a good way to start rebuilding this mess, but 1st and foremost must get back to the day when farm system can produce a min. of 2 players per yr to help on avg each yr, somethng they were very good at 04-07. Lets face it when was the last time RS produced a MLB starting pitcher [Doubront 1st since Buchholz/Masterson- Not good enough] But have to like what is down on lower levels past Barnes/Webster/De La Rosa, have to be excited to see what guys like Owens/Buttrey/Johnson Kukuk/Light/Montas/Callahan might become, all have great potential and could be knocking on the door by 2015. This is the way franchises like Cards / Giants / Rays / even Rangers[while they have also spent on FA's] do it and stay competitive year after yr.

    [/QUOTE]

    Although we did trade prospects for stars like VMart & AGon, we did recently trade stars for prospects (Webster, de la Rosa & Sands, as well as other lesser prospects from the Youk & Shopp deals). We had a deep draft in 2012 and 2011 that hasn'r yet shown up in the top oprospect charts, but many of those players are very promising.

    [/QUOTE]


    Its probably been 4-5 years that I can say I've been this excited about the quality of the prospects at the lower levels. We all know alot can happen between now and even AAA [R.Westmoreland]. But the RS have a group that looks as good as I've seen in awhile. The Kris Johnsons, Kyle Weilands, Adam Mills types that always starts w/ not overpowering, but knows how to pitch or has a good feel for the game- No Thanks. We now have a bunch of swing and miss types in the farm. Lets just hope it still looks as good in a couple of years.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    Its probably been 4-5 years that I can say I've been this excited about the quality of the prospects at the lower levels. We all know alot can happen between now and even AAA [R.Westmoreland]. But the RS have a group that looks as good as I've seen in awhile. The Kris Johnsons, Kyle Weilands, Adam Mills types that always starts w/ not overpowering, but knows how to pitch or has a good feel for the game- No Thanks. We now have a bunch of swing and miss types in the farm. Lets just hope it still looks as good in a couple of years.

    Well said. I think in 2 years time, we will see many of our lower prospects on the MLB top 100 list- hopefully near the top.

    We will also get a higher pick next draft due to our poor record.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Well said. I think in 2 years time, we will see many of our lower prospects on the MLB top 100 list- hopefully near the top.

    We will also get a higher pick next draft due to our poor record.

    [/QUOTE]


    pretty excited about that too.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    Picking 7th, we should get one of the top guys out there. Theres a couple 1b/3b prospects with power bats I would consider. We are thin at 1b is our system. Kris Bryant is one of those guys...

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    Sometimes better players drop in the draft due to signing issues.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    ...so we may end up with a #3 or 4 pick value in the 7 slot.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

     

    I am patiently waiting to see this headline, "McCarthy/Marcum signs with the Red Sox."   :)

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    Any thoughts on Anibal Sanchez? 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    I'd rather have Sanchez than McCarthy or Marcum, but I think he will be priced too high and want 2 more years than I'd dare to go.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: A Realistic Look At 2013: Part I

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'd rather have Sanchez than McCarthy or Marcum, but I think he will be priced too high and want 2 more years than I'd dare to go.

    [/QUOTE]

    Sox gotta spend some money, right? I'd rather it be on pitching. Seems like they can plug in outfielders to see who pans out (if they re-sign Ross, that is). I mean atleast throw $ in the right direction (regardless whether its ideal or not), which to me would be SP. Sanchez wants 5/$90 & he's 29 & that's the youngest FA SP on the market. No? I could be wrong on his demands. I'm curious to see any remaining dynamic between him and Boston. 

     

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