Have to stop with the coulda woulda stuff.
Why? I enjoy this stuff.
Just think time could be better spent on players who want to play in Boston or may eventually play in Boston. Seems we have a pretty good idea where certain players want to play and what teams are being played in negotiations.
I understand that this is part of the game and winter moves, but are you so sure the guys we signed really wanted to play here or just took the best money deal? Would that be so much different than outbidding other teams for the players that signed elsewhere. We really don't know what is inside the heads of signing players everywhere, and we can not always believe everything they say on signing day or otherwise.
No, it doesn't, but that shouldn't end the discussion.
We can talk about trading for a player like Justin Upton, but if RS are on list of 4 team on his no trade clause for me a total waste of time, if A.Sanchez states he really wants to return to Detroit and in the end turned down more $ elsewhere to play in Detroit, do you really think RS should overpay to get this player? or we as fans should say our $ would have been better spent trying to sign him for who knows what it would have cost than the signings we did make?
Just because we are on the "no trade list" does not mean we can never get him. Oftentimes a player will put teams like the Sox on the no-trade list as a bargaining chip for a re-negotiation of their contract if a deal can be made.
We don't, but that shouldn't end the discussion. (Ask lefty Papi if he'd rather have played in another park.)
I think if you asked most power hitting LH bats where they would rather play Fenway or say Yankee Stadium, think it would be a no brainer. Imagine the numbers Papi would put up hitting in Yankee Stadium, thank lord he's on our team and so loved in Boston, remember not so long ago Papi saying he would consider playing for Yanks, can you blame him?
I wasn't aware that there are only 2 parks in MLB and that the Yanks are an option for every player I mentioned signing. Fenway is very freindly to all hitters. Yes, it takes away from HRs of RF/power alley hitting lefties, but it gives singles & dbls freely. There is a long history of lefties doing very well in Fenway. It is not like lefties do not want to play here vs the average park, in fact, I think compared to the average park, most would like to play here. It is not a deterrent.
And, I'm arguing we played the wrong cards.
But if those cards really weren't in play for RS. Then did they play the wrong cards?
1) Any card is in play at the right cost.
2) You and I have no way to know if the cards were truely in play at reasonable costs or not. That's why discussing these things on a forum like this is not something that needs to be severely limited by your narrow view on what was possible or not based mostly on heresay and possible posturing by players or agents or GMs.
I respect you opinion, but disagree.
Would agree with your assumption that RS need a top of rotation starter and a middle of the order bat to be considered a WS contender. But if those things weren't in play for RS this offseason, who is at fault, M.Cain or C.Hammels for signing their extensions? Where I disagree is signing Hamilton / Sanchez / or Greinke would have been the answer. Look Dodgers aren't going to be there every year to take our bad signings off our hands.
I have stated that getting a true ace would be extremely costly, anpossible and that it might not have been possible to get this winter. However, getting a potential ace-type or a solid #2 type was possible and a better plan than the one we had.
We should not be scared off by some past poor signings. Sanchez got a 5 year deal- not 7. He is still very young for a FA. He has pitched 190+ IP for 3 straight years. He is a gamble. If he stinks, there may not be a Dodger team around to take him. I get that, and I understand your position, but I happen to disagree. We needed to at least try and fill our biggest 2 holes, and spending $53M this year on new salary without filling these two holes is really the bottom line.
Well signing mediocre players to over $53M this year alone is not smart either.
I like the fact that Ben went after high character guys, this will mean a lot over 162 game schedule. But signing these guys will not impede the futures of guys in minors. All are short term contracts and if need be sure RS could trade anyone of these players to make way for a young player by kicking in a little $ to make it desirable for other team, Yanks have always been good at this = Burnett [remember when everyone said they could never get rid of that contract]. If Brentz or Kalish prove ready this year, I'm sure RS in off season could trade Victorino by eating 5-6 mil of remaining contract when he had a lot of suitors this off season? 2 yrs @ 20 mil someone would be interested, he's a better player than Pagan.
Doesn't the fact that trading Burnett makes the possibility of trading Sanchez if he fails a possibility? You seem to be arguing opposite points to suit your position.
We'll see who does better the next 3 yeas: SV or AP, and remember, we could have had AP for a 4th year at about the same cost of SV at 3. Also, A. Pagan was not on my wish list, I just pointed him out as a better 2014 and beyond option than SV.
I agree. I did not want Greinke. (I'd still take him over Dempster and Drew)
Totally disagree here. I'll take a starting SS and a No.4 starter over a guy who has a personality disorder make him the highest pd pitcher in baseball throw him in Boston and tell him to live up to that contract. IMO this has the makings as one of the worst signings ever in baseball.
I guess we disagree on how much Drew brings to the Sox over a much better fielding Iggy, but I respect your position here. It's a close call for me. I do not like Greinke much, and it's not even about his "crumble in the spotlight" issues some here touted. His age and his inconsistencies scare me. I would not have offered Greinke anything close to what he got. We agree on this.
5 years is not that long. He has had over 190 IP for 3 straight years. He is about as young as Buch and Lester.
We could also say sign E.jackson who has put up almost 6 yrs straight of 190 IP for a lot less $. Sanchez has been a .500 pitcher for his career w/ both elbow and shoulder injuries on his resume who pitched great in post season last season is this what we base giving a 5yr at huge $ for? or Greinke who in his 2 seasons in NL had a 3.44 and 3.83 era which compares favorably w/ Dempsters 3.65/ 3.85/ 2.25 era's in NL the past few seasons. This is the guy we want to make the highest pd pitcher in baseball. Sometimes the cards aren't there and you have to know when to fold them.
E Jackson's WHIP scares the bejesus out of me.
My first plan was to trade for B Anderson if possible, sign B McCarthy and maybe Marcum, and trade a starter or two from our team for prospects or a big middle order bat (Lester>Myers?).
Signing Sanchez was not my idea. I've had to say this too many times.
Signing Sanchez was better than what we did. That is all I said and continue saying. He is not really worth a 5 year deal at that money, but his worth is more than SV at 3 years, Dempster at 2 years, Drew at 1 year, and on and on... To me, he clearly would have been better than SV/RDSD who are signed for a combined 6 years and for about the same total money. One big difference is that ASanchez would be here in 2014, 2015, 2016, and 2017 while these others will not all be here. To me, it was about the future, not short term bridges to the next short term bridges.
All moves are gambles.
Agreed. And this years even more so on the high end signings.
Developing players are on the farm. These gusy are not going to "help" them in anyway, shape or form, except that they are not good enough to block them- hardly a ringing endorsement, is it?
Like I said there is not one contract RS signed this offseason that they couldn't move w/ a little help if need to be to let a player like Iggy / Bradley/ Brentz/ Boegarts/ De La Rosa/ Barnes / Webster suddenly proves to be ready ahead of schedule.
It's kind of shocking to me that the best part of the deal we made is that we "can trade them". I've never heard this argument used as the best reason to sign someone. (I'm not saying you think it is the best reason, but to me, it is the only justification for most of our signings.) I also fear that Sox management will not choose to trade guys if we are within and reasonable chance of making the playoffs.
One more reason why we should have gotten at least one of Sanchez (my choice) or Hamilton. We have had to gaping holes in our team for years now: an ace-type starter and a power bat. We spent over $53M for 2013 on FAs and got neither. That's the bottom line.
Like I said sometimes its not in the cards. Can't fault RS or Ben for the cards not being there. But feel they did the best they could w/ what was available. As for signings the likes of Sanchez / Hamilton / Greinke all signings are a gamble but these would have been even BIGGER gambles and the Dodgers will not be there every year to clean up our mess. Short term deals that could be easily moved to allow the developement of a young player or if a better player w/ less warts becomes avilable on the FA market in the future sounds like the right play this year.
I don't think Sanchez signing would prevent any Sox pitcher from developing. I don't think BMcCarthy would either. We spent $53M on this year. Yes, most are on 1-2 years deals, so we can start over next year. That may sound like a plus, but starting over is not good plan to me. We just pushed off the big decisions to another time. We still need an ace of solid # SP. We still need a solid 3/4 slot hitter. We will probably have to wait until next year, when the same arguments will be made against getting one then as well.
"How soon Is Now?"
When you say it's gonna happen "now"
Well, when exactly do you mean ?
See I've already waited too long
And all my hope is gone
- The Smiths