A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : When BV is the topic, Joe has shown no sign of any kind of thinking, starting with first game of the season. 
    Posted by expitch


    That's right.  He chose to pitch to Fielder instead of Young.

    Fielder has a .908 OPS, young has a .691.

    More recently, he intentionally walked Matsui to load the bases.  Matsui.  He was batting .175.  It was his only IBB of the year.  He was cut shortly afterwards.

    Out of the roughly 180 AL players with 100 PAs, Matsui is #178.  He is literally about the worst hitter in the league.  That is beyond dispute.  And Valentine intentionally walks the guy to load the bases.

    I find it hard to believe that even the most die-hard Valentine fan thought that was a good move.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : That's exactly how I felt about Francona.... even though the team managed to win in spite of him.
    Posted by BOSOX1941


    Good, you're starting to catch on.

    From now on, all pro-BV statements will start off with 'even though this might be the worst team in 20 years,...'

    And all anti-Tito statements will start with 'even though he was the winningest manager in BB from 2004-2011, and even though he won more WS than anyone except for TLR....

    And I'm serious.  Every once in a while, I'd like some acknowledgement that the season is one of the worst in our recent history.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    Peter Abraham does make some valid points about Valentine. 

    I've never had any specific criticisms about him, but I still do think he really was the wrong man for this organization.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : That's right.  He chose to pitch to Fielder instead of Young. Fielder has a .908 OPS, young has a .691. More recently, he intentionally walked Matsui to load the bases.  Matsui.  He was batting .175.  It was his only IBB of the year.  He was cut shortly afterwards. Out of the roughly 180 AL players with 100 PAs, Matsui is #178.  He is literally about the worst hitter in the league.  That is beyond dispute.  And Valentine intentionally walks the guy to load the bases. I find it hard to believe that even the most die-hard Valentine fan thought that was a good move.
    Posted by Joebreidey
    In the FIRST GAME of the season, with players he was still learning, BV chose to see what Morales could do against a dangerous lefty, and he got him to fly out; unfortunately it was a Sac fly. But BV made a mental note about Morales. Have you checked recently on how well Morales has been doing?


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    This is it for BV. He got his reprieve through Henry, so then you have to assume he's the manager the rest of the year unless the team goes into a massive tailspin. However, how long does that tailspin have to go to replace him? I still feel that the NHL example is viable and worth exploring--a new leader in charge has had some brilliant results--Washington, Los Angeles and then Pittsburgh a few years ago. BV will get his opportunity to get the Sox out of their rut. I'm rooting for the Sox, so let's see what happens. But my hunch on this is that it will play out poorly for both the Sox and BV. And that falls on management for not making a gutsy move when it counted.  
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : Good, you're starting to catch on. From now on, all pro-BV statements will start off with 'even though this might be the worst team in 20 years,...' And all anti-Tito statements will start with 'even though he was the winningest manager in BB from 2004-2011, and even though he won more WS than anyone except for TLR.... And I'm serious.  Every once in a while, I'd like some acknowledgement that the season is one of the worst in our recent history.
    Posted by Joebreidey
    OK, you've got the acknowledgment -- but not all the reasons. I said above that you have shown no sign of clear thinking. On cause--and--effect, the best that can be said is that you are simple-minded.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : OK, you've got the acknowledgment -- but not all the reasons. I said above that you have shown no sign of clear thinking. On cause--and--effect, the best that can be said is that you are simple-minded.
    Posted by expitch


    Easy on the insults, dude.  Joe is a very smart guy.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from 6k42lt913c. Show 6k42lt913c's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    It's a bad season, why? Here is Adrian's take on it.

    Asked afterward about Valentine's vote of confidence, Adrian Gonzalez said, "Yeah, he deserves it. It's one of those things where he hasn't swung the bat all year, he hasn't pitched -- it's us who are playing out there. We're at a .500 record right now and it's on us, it's not on Bobby.

    "Everybody wants to make a big deal out of that, but it's never been on Bobby. It's been on us.''

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    AGON is one of the few guys on the team that had very little time invested with Francona. He's also a professional. What's he supposed to say publicly? "Oh 19 guys in the dugout think he is a knucklehead, but we have to win anyway because we should be above this stuff and just play." .... 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    I never thought he would go during the season.  I do think he will gone in November.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    what I think is interesting is that some of us believe he should be fired, but we are understanding that it's not personal, not really about BV's abilities. It's about players underperforming--that's it in a nutshell. I think BV proved that Tito was in fact a very good manager--that's what I think he proved this year. I doubt I would call for BV's firing if it was still just the 1 WC. But that 2nd one out there has left mediocre teams in the "playoff race." That's why I think he should be canned. Sox are on a 2-game win streak, Salty is back at catcher, CC is hitting (Finally), Pedroia has shown a sign of hitting (Finally), AGON is hot. So I guess let it ride for now. I said he was incapable of getting the team to win 8 of 10. So far he's 2-0, so he just has to go 6-2 in the next 8 games to reach that goal. I hope he can do it, but a betting man would bet against him...darrin mcgavin.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    Always my point is don't waste a season trying to prove a point about your leader's abilities. It's not worth it. The LA Kings made the bold move to fire Murray for Sutter---the end game? A sport championship. Ask every King executive and they'll tell you it was Murray's team, but it was Sutter who got the team to achieve, not just spin its wheels....like the Sox have done all season.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenwellforpresident. Show greenwellforpresident's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    Most people agree that the biggest problem with this team is the under-performance of the so called stars.  Injuries haven't helped.  BV is, of course, in no way responsible for injuries.  Getting the stars to perform should not be the managers problem.  That is part of why they are stars and make the big money, they should do well regardless of the manager.  The main reason the sox are even a .500 ballclub is the production they've gotten from the younger/less proven players.  I give Bobby V credit for a lot of this.  I don't ever remember hearing about an all-star having a bad season because of his manager.  I have heard managers praised for getting the young guys to perform to their ability.  This is one of Bobby's strong suits and without it this team could be in a lot worse  shape, believe it or not.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    I want to get this straight, it's not the manager's job to get All-Stars to perform, just the kids. What if the kids aren't performing either? Nava he used until he went into an 8-for-73 free fall. He's been forcefeeding a .200 hitting Kalish into the lineups. He put Ciriaco at DH in the 2 hole for the longest time, upon learning maybe he would be a better fit low in the lineup at SS. Morales he took out of the rotation for a month so that the Sox can HAVE 2 lefties in the pen, even though the team has historically had 1 lefty in the pen--they had Miller. How's he managing these kids? The team is. 500, that's it. .500 not .600 or .585 or .525. If BV"s strong suit is the youngsters, then maybe he should be playing Ciriaco at SS instead of Aviles. Bottom line, he's over-used some of the youngsters and under-utilized the ones that make a difference.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    Anyone who believes it isn't personal with dannycater is not reading carefully.  He's attacking Bobby V because he desperately wants Francona back and/or because he still resents all the largely unmerited attacks against Francona last year.

    dannycater's central thesis appears to be the players won't play hard or play well for Bobby V, which is why he should be fired.  I partly agree from the standpoint that when managers are fired, it is invariably because the teams don't win enough, and that is generally related to how well the players perform.

    But I would ask dannycater to direct his attention to what Peter Abraham wrote about Bobby V's performance to date. 

    I'll cite my own favorite example which Abraham doesn't mention.  Last year right before the Sox went into the September tailspin, the Sox had five--Ells, Pedey, Youk, Papi, and AGon--players whose OPS's were among the top five in the AL.    Of those five only one, Ortiz, has delivered this year.  dannycater would have us believe that the other four are simply sitting this season out in the vain hope of bringing Francona back.  Heck, maybe even Ortiz intentionally hurt his achilles while trotting around the bases after a dinger.   I'm overstating things, of course, but the truth is not far away. 

    dannycater would also have us believe that Beckett, Lester, and, earlier in the season, Buchholz simply could not find it within themselves to pitch well.  Maybe they didn't like what Bobby V said about Youk.  Maybe they didn't like his attitude in ST.  Maybe they just missed the warm and fuzzy feeling Francona gave them.  Whatever, they all started the season badly, in dannycater's eyes, because they just don't like the manager or are not inspired by his lack of charisma.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    max, as usual reaching. Did I ever say these guys did it on purpose? Nope. It happens. So you move on, and you get another leader in there who can motivate the guys to do well. Is that too hard to figure out. You read Abraham's article and someone posted the Herald's column about firing BV---did you read that one too? We hear one side of everything on this forum. The side about how we should stop blaming the manager. Well, if a team is still trying to get to .500 this late in the year and all it takes to grab the 2nd WC is play .550, then yeah, you make a move to improve the team. Someone said fire the GM, who also gets some blame with some poor personel decisions, but BV has yet to get this team on a sustained streak of victories other than getting out of a deep hole in May.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    max, as usual reaching. Did I ever say these guys did it on purpose? Nope. It happens. So you move on, and you get another leader in there who can motivate the guys to do well. Is that too hard to figure out. You read Abraham's article and someone posted the Herald's column about firing BV---did you read that one too? We hear one side of everything on this forum. The side about how we should stop blaming the manager. Well, if a team is still trying to get to .500 this late in the year and all it takes to grab the 2nd WC is play .550, then yeah, you make a move to improve the team. Someone said fire the GM, who also gets some blame with some poor personel decisions, but BV has yet to get this team on a sustained streak of victories other than getting out of a deep hole in May.
    Posted by dannycater

    Not to mention the guy gives off the vibe of a lunatic.  I think that might be part of the problem.  As soon as he starts talking in press conferences my girlfriend starts laughing.  I doubt she is the only one.

     
  18. This post has been removed.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    Cherington's Podsednik, Albers, and Youkilis moves were bizarre to say the least and ill-timed. But he did get Cook, he did bring up Ciriaco, Middlebrooks. He did nothing to replace Ortiz in his 20-game DL stint.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from snakeoil123. Show snakeoil123's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
     I do think he will gone in November. I be, she be, he be, we be Drink, drank, drunk, think, that, thunk If Ellsbury can get his SB toal into double digits, I think the Red Sox will use Ellsbury as trade bait and pray there is a GM on another MLB team that is as stupid as InEpstein. If the Red Sox don't make the playoffs, Cherry should be gone by year end. Valentine should at least be allowed to manage players that he has some input into putting on the roster. 
    Posted by TrotterNixon

    Were you trying to make some sort of point here?  Was it just a synapse misfire of sorts?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichFan. Show MichFan's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    The team is loaded with talent..There are a few bad apples that have to weeded out before they rot the whole team.  
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenwellforpresident. Show greenwellforpresident's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    I want to get this straight, it's not the manager's job to get All-Stars to perform, just the kids.
    That's what I said.  Good job on reading comprehension.
    What if the kids aren't performing either? Nava he used until he went into an 8-for-73 free fall. He's been forcefeeding a .200 hitting Kalish into the lineups.
    Nava had two straight months of a .900 ops so he tried to give him a chance to come out of his slump, what an idiot.  Kalish has been a top prospect for a while so he's giving him more than 75 ABs to get going.  Can you remember another manager giving a prospect a little while to get going when he started off in a slump?  I can, and it worked pretty well.
    He put Ciriaco at DH in the 2 hole for the longest time, upon learning maybe he would be a better fit low in the lineup at SS.
    What he's done with Ciriaco's worked out pretty well so far.
    Morales he took out of the rotation for a month so that the Sox can HAVE 2 lefties in the pen, even though the team has historically had 1 lefty in the pen--they had Miller. How's he managing these kids?
    He's said from the beginning he wanted Morales in the rotation.  He also knows that this team can't go far without the "top 3" starters doing well so they had to stay in the rotation.
    The team is. 500, that's it. .500 not .600 or .585 or .525. If BV"s strong suit is the youngsters, then maybe he should be playing Ciriaco at SS instead of Aviles. Bottom line, he's over-used some of the youngsters and under-utilized the ones that make a difference.
    Posted by dannycater
    It's pretty easy to look back at the stats and say he should have played more and he should have played less.  This isn't the 'bottom line'.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : Good, you're starting to catch on. From now on, all pro-BV statements will start off with 'even though this might be the worst team in 20 years,...' And all anti-Tito statements will start with 'even though he was the winningest manager in BB from 2004-2011, and even though he won more WS than anyone except for TLR.... And I'm serious.  Every once in a while, I'd like some acknowledgement that the season is one of the worst in our recent history.
    Posted by Joebreidey

    You could look up the recent history numbers, you're good at that. Would that be acknowledgement enough for you?
    I would like fans to stop saying Francona won 2 WS. I'd prefer that they say he was the manager when the team won 2 WS.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : We had plenty of guys to choose from.  LL was picking BV from the beginning.  The idea that there was only one candidate in the coaching world is crazy on PA's part.
    Posted by Joebreidey

    Lol, I guess you either don't undstand what he wrote, or you refuse to understand...lol
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager

    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager:
    In Response to Re: A realistic look at Bobby V as the Sox manager : Easy on the insults, dude.  Joe is a very smart guy.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut


    Although I tend to agree with you, nut, I do wonder about Joe sometimes.
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share