A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Alex Speier has offered his take on Ben's offseason over at WEEI. It's not doom and gloom, but it's not exactly warm and fuzzy either. I would say overall it's a pretty fair analysis.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to carnie's comment:

    Alex Speier has offered his take on Ben's offseason over at WEEI. It's not doom and gloom, but it's not exactly warm and fuzzy either. I would say overall it's a pretty fair analysis.



    Great article, but I do think it was a bit homerish.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    That article was an excellent overview of the past year in Redsox nation. It should be foundational reading for everyone involved in this thread. It all makes sense to me as to why they made the decisions they made and what they are trying to do going forward. For example, relying less on longer terms deals and spreading the wealth to a wider range of players so that we are not so dependent on just 2 or 3 plyers in order to win. Adding more depth and making the decision to park guys like Iglesias and Lavarnway in AAA for low cost depth and just maybe some of those guys pan out long term if they give them time. Look what they did with Youk. That type of approach gives us a lot more depth while also helping player development IMO. 

    There are no illusions that top management thinks this team is a lock for the playoffs. The focus is on building the next "great Redsox team" and adding players who can deal with the pressure of the Boston market. Guys tough enough to work through adversity. Having "2 centerfielders" in order to manage the situation in Fenway's RF better. All this is good info as far as I'm concerned. I think they are making good decisions. Keep doing what you are doing Ben!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to RedsoxProspects' comment:

    That article was an excellent overview of the past year in Redsox nation. It should be foundational reading for everyone involved in this thread. It all makes sense to me as to why they made the decisions they made and what they are trying to do going forward. For example, relying less on longer terms deals and spreading the wealth to a wider range of players so that we are not so dependent on just 2 or 3 plyers in order to win. Adding more depth and making the decision to park guys like Iglesias and Lavarnway in AAA for low cost depth and just maybe some of those guys pan out long term if they give them time. Look what they did with Youk. That type of approach gives us a lot more depth while also helping player development IMO. 

    There are no illusions that top management thinks this team is a lock for the playoffs. The focus is on building the next "great Redsox team" and adding players who can deal with the pressure of the Boston market. Guys tough enough to work through adversity. Having "2 centerfielders" in order to manage the situation in Fenway's RF better. All this is good info as far as I'm concerned. I think they are making good decisions. Keep doing what you are doing Ben!



    No decision, except maybe the Breslow extension made us any better in 2014 and beyond.

    Keeping the prospects was nice, but it did not improve us.

    The short term deals only put off the decisions to a later date.

    We are still intensely relying on some prospects to strike it big to have a chance in 2014. We can not count on the 2 and 3 year signees to lead us anywhere. The best they may do is be support players to the next Lynn & Rice.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to RedsoxProspects' comment:

     

    That article was an excellent overview of the past year in Redsox nation. It should be foundational reading for everyone involved in this thread. It all makes sense to me as to why they made the decisions they made and what they are trying to do going forward. For example, relying less on longer terms deals and spreading the wealth to a wider range of players so that we are not so dependent on just 2 or 3 plyers in order to win. Adding more depth and making the decision to park guys like Iglesias and Lavarnway in AAA for low cost depth and just maybe some of those guys pan out long term if they give them time. Look what they did with Youk. That type of approach gives us a lot more depth while also helping player development IMO. 

    There are no illusions that top management thinks this team is a lock for the playoffs. The focus is on building the next "great Redsox team" and adding players who can deal with the pressure of the Boston market. Guys tough enough to work through adversity. Having "2 centerfielders" in order to manage the situation in Fenway's RF better. All this is good info as far as I'm concerned. I think they are making good decisions. Keep doing what you are doing Ben!

     



    No decision, except maybe the Breslow extension made us any better in 2014 and beyond.

     

    Keeping the prospects was nice, but it did not improve us.

    The short term deals only put off the decisions to a later date.

    We are still intensely relying on some prospects to strike it big to have a chance in 2014. We can not count on the 2 and 3 year signees to lead us anywhere. The best they may do is be support players to the next Lynn & Rice.



    I think you're right, but if none of our prospects hit it big, having an Upton in the lineup or a Greinke in the Rotation isn't going to make much difference.

    What else can the F/O do but field as competitive a team as possible in the short-term, while trying to hold onto the pieces long enough to see where they land? 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Ice-Cream. Show Ice-Cream's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    I read somewhere that Oakland signed Okajima. 

    Billy Beane's plan is very simple--trade with Arizona and sign former Red Sox players   LOL

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    No decision, except maybe the Breslow extension made us any better in 2014 and beyond.

     

    Keeping the prospects was nice, but it did not improve us.

    The short term deals only put off the decisions to a later date.

    We are still intensely relying on some prospects to strike it big to have a chance in 2014. We can not count on the 2 and 3 year signees to lead us anywhere. The best they may do is be support players to the nextLynn & Rice.

     



    I think you're right, but if none of our prospects hit it big, having an Upton in the lineup or a Greinke in the Rotation isn't going to make much difference.

     

    What else can the F/O do but field as competitive a team as possible in the short-term, while trying to hold onto the pieces long enough to see where they land? 

    Well, like I said, we could have done at least one of my suggestions.

    I read somewhere that the Royals trade of Myers was one of the worst 10 deals of the winter for the Royals.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    No decision, except maybe the Breslow extension made us any better in 2014 and beyond.

     

    Keeping the prospects was nice, but it did not improve us.

    The short term deals only put off the decisions to a later date.

    We are still intensely relying on some prospects to strike it big to have a chance in 2014. We can not count on the 2 and 3 year signees to lead us anywhere. The best they may do is be support players to the nextLynn & Rice.

     



    I think you're right, but if none of our prospects hit it big, having an Upton in the lineup or a Greinke in the Rotation isn't going to make much difference.

     

    What else can the F/O do but field as competitive a team as possible in the short-term, while trying to hold onto the pieces long enough to see where they land? 

    Well, like I said, we could have done at least one of my suggestions.

    I read somewhere that the Royals trade of Myers was one of the worst 10 deals of the winter for the Royals.



    Kansas City got 2 proven starters who had done well in the AL East. How were we to top that for 1 prospect who really only emerged at the top level in the last year. Lester may not even have been enough to get that deal done. No question that I liked Will Myers but he is not a slam dunk. To give up 2 proven starters for a guy who may never be a star in mlb is risky and even short sighted. I don't want to toss all our chances to win in 2013. Look at the Orioles last year. Who among us gave them a real chance last year? And for those who did, wasn't it basically dumb luck that they did? I mean come on. Don't we have as much talent as they had going into last year? Who would have guessed that the 67 Redsox would win the pennant? Such things can happen.

    Maybe guys like Bradley and Bogaerts emerge and become late season starters this year. Maybe Lackey can come back strong or a De Larosa becomes a surprise star. It doesn't take a lot of guys to really emerge to make a difference. Maybe Middlebrooks is for real and only improves this year!  Maybe Pedroia puts up another career year and Ellsbury plays like an MVP type again. 

    It's only some short term money. Almost all the signings were for 2 years or less. Victorino was the only 3 year deal if I remember correctly as Napoli's deal got changed. I think Ben did an outstanding job considering the situation. We ARE deeper than we probably could have anticipated. We did overpay a little but long term payroll flexibility was maintained and we even reset the luxury tax situation. And kept every major prospect.

    We should be cheering Cherington and the team. They have done well.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Kansas City got 2 proven starters who had done well in the AL East. How were we to top that for 1 prospect who really only emerged at the top level in the last year.

    Boom, the Rays got  more than just 1 prospect. They got: Jake Odorizzi, Patrick Leonard, and Mike Montgomery. (3 of their best 11 prospects and 4 of the top 18...and KC had a very good farm system.) 

    We may have been able to just trade Lester alone for a smaller package, or we could have added Morales, Ellsbury, Salty or a couple pen arms that might be starters (Mortensen or Aceves) for KC.

     

    Lester may not even have been enough to get that deal done. No question that I liked Will Myers but he is not a slam dunk. To give up 2 proven starters for a guy who may never be a star in mlb is risky and even short sighted.

    Boom, you never want to trade our kids, but now you don't want a prospect widely regarded as one of the very best in the nation. Myers is no more of a risk than Bradley, Bogaerts or Barnes. Yeah, he may not pan out, but Lester's deal runs out before we will be strong contenders anyways.

     

    I don't want to toss all our chances to win in 2013.

    It's one year, and a long shot at that. Very long.

    Look at the Orioles last year. Who among us gave them a real chance last year? And for those who did, wasn't it basically dumb luck that they did? I mean come on. Don't we have as much talent as they had going into last year? Who would have guessed that the 67 Redsox would win the pennant? Such things can happen.

     

    It's about setting ourselves up for a ring, not to surprise people by squeeking into the playoffs when everything works out just right and bowing out quickly.

     

    Maybe guys like Bradley and Bogaerts emerge and become late season starters this year. Maybe Lackey can come back strong or a De Larosa becomes a surprise star. It doesn't take a lot of guys to really emerge to make a difference. Maybe Middlebrooks is for real and only improves this year!  Maybe Pedroia puts up another career year and Ellsbury plays like an MVP type again. 

    Maybe Myers becomes a Stanton.

     

    It's only some short term money. Almost all the signings were for 2 years or less.

    I hate this reasoning. So, 1-2 years from now, we sign other lesser players just like these to more 1-3 year deals, and so on and so on... We need to get more or better prospects or fill one of our top 2 needs : an ace (or at least a solid #2 type) or a top 3/4 hitter. We gained no more prospects and no top 2 need filled. It was a "halfway" play, and we will not win a ring this year, and did nothing to get us any closer in the future.

     

    Victorino was the only 3 year deal if I remember correctly as Napoli's deal got changed. I think Ben did an outstanding job considering the situation. We ARE deeper than we probably could have anticipated. We did overpay a little but long term payroll flexibility was maintained and we even reset the luxury tax situation. And kept every major prospect.

    Yippie! We didn't trade any prospects. That's not a plan for improving in the future. A plan to improve our future involves adding more prospects or players under team control for 3+ years while in their prime.

     

    We should be cheering Cherington and the team. They have done well.

    I cheered the Dodger trade probably more than anyone else. Maybe my hopes got up too high in thinking we'd continue to set ourselves up for 2014 and beyond, but instead just put off for another year the big choices that will need to be made to get us closer to being a strong contender.

    I'm fine with not spending big and longterm on this weak FA class, but we could have gotten at least one "in his prime" player through 2014 or 2015, or further built up our farm (pitching).

    I'll be cheering our team, but cheering Ben is going to take a while. He deserves a chance, and he could very well prove me wrong. I hope he and the 2013 Sox do, but I can't help but think the  only thing good that might come out of this winter is what we get when we dump these guys this summer or next winter/summer.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcri. Show jcri's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    I would like to make a tangental comment on the Orioles.  I've heard several times lately that they aren't going to be as good this year, they were only solid last year because of their pen.  I'd disagree with those sentiments.  They are a young team strong on fundamentals, well coached, who came together and made the playoffs with some success.  I think a team has to learn to play in the playoffs before they can go all the way.  They came a long way last year.  I don't see them falling back.

    I think Lincecum's going to have a great year.  He's toned up his body and looking good except with no hair he looks like a nerd.  The Giants have five pitchers in camp from AA and AAA who are supposedly knocking on the door...I'd be real buddies with that organization.  They are still unsure if their young first baseman is going to hit and Panda over at third is fun to watch and was great in the WS but he also has been benched in the last couple of years for being fat and consequently playing terrible defense at 3rd.  Sometimes he blows up to an amazing weight and then injuries soon follow.  Usually leg injuries, pulled muscles, cramps, strains, etc.  I don't know what they have for young third basemen, but I know we have several in the wings, so if the right situation came up, our potential third baseman for your potential pitcher, see Chris Heston 2.24 in AA last year, Michael Kickham 3.05 AA.  Is Sergio Romo really a closer?  I think we have one of those too...I know I talk about this team too much but they're in my back yard so I see a lot of them.  Think they make a good trade partner for us.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    I think you're right, but if none of our prospects hit it big, having an Upton in the lineup or a Greinke in the Rotation isn't going to make much difference.

    I didn't want Greinke or Hamilton, but if one or two of our prospects do "hit it big", we'll wish we had a big named player to help take us over the top.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcri. Show jcri's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Looks like I have a new name--how did that happen?  That is not Softy above--that's Critter!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

    I read somewhere that Oakland signed Okajima. 

    Billy Beane's plan is very simple--trade with Arizona and sign former Red Sox players   LOL




    I think Cleveland is subscribing to the former red sox thing to some extent also...They just signed Bourn as well...

    Im starting to worry about Doubie now. I really hope his shoulder weakness is not from lack of off season preparation. Breslow is suffering from the same thing so maybe not. Have to wait and see.

    I think we will see RDLR this year and Morales might possibly start the season if Doubie isnt ready.

    Buch? Not worried at all. Hes always in shape coming into camp. Just a minor tweak.

    I Just hope this team has the right depth when players go down, cause some will.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Can't have it both ways? Can't complain that the RS should have traded Jon Lester for prospects, then in the next breathe say we didn't improve ourselves because we kept our prospects. Obviously the Royals preferred Shields over Lester, who wouldn't based on last couple yrs. But sometimes you have to trust your baseball ops guys and if they're telling you that the prospects the RS have De La Rosa /Barnes/Bradley/Boegarts/Webster/etc... are the real deal then Ben did the right thing by finding the short term solutions for their roster. If these young players have much higher ceiling than anything that was available thru trade why make a deal? The tough part for GM is knowing which prospect to trade and which one to hold onto, remember when I believe G.Michael was GM at the time and Yanks took a ton of heat for trading Gerald Williams and holding onto Bernie, many believed based on minors and 1st showings at mlb that Gerald was going to be the better player. Those are the decisions that win WS's.Theo not sending Pedroia down when media was calling for it, sometimes you have to trust the baseball ops guys and what they are telling you. I would have been in favor of gettting Myers for Lester if we could because I also believe RS may not be capable of winning WS til 15. But Rays offered better deal and RS held onto their best prospects which in long term may end up being the right move, only time will tell.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Im starting to worry about Doubie now. I really hope his shoulder weakness is not from lack of off season preparation. Breslow is suffering from the same thing so maybe not. Have to wait and see.

    It's too early to know for sure what is going on, or what brought it about, but if it was lack of conditioning, I'm going to be P-O'd. His conditioning in 2011 really got me on the wrong side of liking or disliking this kid. 2013 is a year that can help bring me back to the plus side on him. We'll see.

     

    I think we will see RDLR this year and Morales might possibly start the season if Doubie isnt ready.

    We need to start counting on 30+ starts from our 6th and lower starters. It look slike this year we are ready, but replacing a Lester of Buch with a Morales, Tazawa, or DLR is going to be a big hit to our chances. (Another reason for going all out to improve near the top of the rotation, instead of stockpiling 5/6 slot starters.

     

    Buch? Not worried at all. Hes always in shape coming into camp. Just a minor tweak.

    He may be "in shape", but his back is an issue that may never go away.

     

    I Just hope this team has the right depth when players go down, cause some will.

    If no pitchers do, we can always make a trade from a position of strength.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Can't have it both ways?

    Actually, my complaint is that we tried to have it both ways and ended up with neither.

     

    Can't complain that the RS should have traded Jon Lester for prospects, then in the next breathe say we didn't improve ourselves because we kept our prospects. Obviously the Royals preferred Shields over Lester, who wouldn't based on last couple yrs.

    It's not "obvious" when the rumors have said the Ben turned down the KC offer, not vice versa. Perhaps the deal with Boston was less of a package for just one starter. I have not heard any specifics on what the offers and counteroffers were, and what the sticking point was.

    I'm Ok with keeping Lester, especially if we extend him once (of if) he shows he has regained his form this season, but had we chosen to build for 2014 and beyond, trading Lester for Myers would have helped, as long as we used some of the money saved on Lester's contract to upgrade on the Dempster signing (A Sanchez? a SP from next winter's FA class?)

     

    But sometimes you have to trust your baseball ops guys and if they're telling you that the prospects the RS have De La Rosa /Barnes/Bradley/Boegarts/Webster/etc... are the real deal then Ben did the right thing by finding the short term solutions for their roster.

    Even if these guys turn out to be "the real deal", we'd be better off in the longterm future with 5+ years of Myers plus whatever we get with the "saved money" from Lester vs 1-2 years of Lester, then maybe a comp draft pick.

     

    If these young players have much higher ceiling than anything that was available thru trade why make a deal?

    I'm OK with not trading any of the kids, in fact that was my top plan: keep the kids and build to improve the pieces around them- not put off building around them until next year.

     

    The tough part for GM is knowing which prospect to trade and which one to hold onto, remember when I believe G.Michael was GM at the time and Yanks took a ton of heat for trading Gerald Williams and holding onto Bernie, many believed based on minors and 1st showings at mlb that Gerald was going to be the better player. Those are the decisions that win WS's.Theo not sending Pedroia down when media was calling for it, sometimes you have to trust the baseball ops guys and what they are telling you. I would have been in favor of gettting Myers for Lester if we could because I also believe RS may not be capable of winning WS til 15. But Rays offered better deal and RS held onto their best prospects which in long term may end up being the right move, only time will tell.

    Perhaps, KC wanted too much (beyond just Lester), but there were a lot of very nice prospects being traded away this winter, and we got none. The only real trade we made was for a one year closer. No signings involved players who will be in their prime in 2014 or 2015. The only extension we made was for Breslow. I like that deal, but I'd hardly call that a major development in improving our longterm outlook.

    We had a nice longterm outlook to begin with. I am happy we kept that intact, but simply put, I wish we had done something to improve the longterm outlook, instead of trying to convince fans that we have a legitimate chance in 2013.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    I read somewhere that Oakland signed Okajima. 

    Billy Beane's plan is very simple--trade with Arizona and sign former Red Sox players   LOL

     




    I think Cleveland is subscribing to the former red sox thing to some extent also...They just signed Bourn as well...

     

    Im starting to worry about Doubie now. I really hope his shoulder weakness is not from lack of off season preparation. Breslow is suffering from the same thing so maybe not. Have to wait and see.

    I think we will see RDLR this year and Morales might possibly start the season if Doubie isnt ready.

    Buch? Not worried at all. Hes always in shape coming into camp. Just a minor tweak.

    I Just hope this team has the right depth when players go down, cause some will.



    Doobie completed his throwing program the organization assigned him so i don't think its an offseason prep issue. They said it wasn't even that bad, just some discomfort when ramping it up in long toss. he'll be fine.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Doobie completed his throwing program the organization assigned him so i don't think its an offseason prep issue. They said it wasn't even that bad, just some discomfort when ramping it up in long toss. he'll be fine.

    He certainly might be fine, but it is a concern for a pitcher to have discomfort on longthrowing.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    Doobie completed his throwing program the organization assigned him so i don't think its an offseason prep issue. They said it wasn't even that bad, just some discomfort when ramping it up in long toss. he'll be fine.

    He certainly might be fine, but it is a concern for a pitcher to have discomfort on longthrowing.




    meh, if it happened at the end of camp i might agree. but it's understandable to have some discomfort when pushing it day 1.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

     

     

    It's not "obvious" when the rumors have said the Ben turned down the KC offer, not vice versa. Perhaps the deal with Boston was less of a package for just one starter. I have not heard any specifics on what the offers and counteroffers were, and what the sticking point was.

    I'm Ok with keeping Lester, especially if we extend him once (of if) he shows he has regained his form this season, but had we chosen to build for 2014 and beyond, trading Lester for Myers would have helped, as long as we used some of the money saved on Lester's contract to upgrade on the Dempster signing (A Sanchez? a SP from next winter's FA class?)

    Guess we heard 2 different things. I heard once Rays were willing to include 2 MLB starters, that RS could not match that type of deal because they did not have the depth that the Rays had.The RS would probably have had to include Doubront to equal what Rays were offering. Possibly RS could have done that next year depending on what type of year Barnes/De La Rosa/Webster have this year, but even then would be huge risk.

     

     

    Even if these guys turn out to be "the real deal", we'd be better off in the longterm future with 5+ years of Myers plus whatever we get with the "saved money" from Lester vs 1-2 years of Lester, then maybe a comp draft pick.

    Or maybe Lester has that bounce back season, RS pick up his option for 2014 then sign to extension and keep the closest thing they have to a No.1 starter for the forseable future? Good starting piching toughest thing to find, while Myers probably is real deal, no should carving his bust for Cooperstown just yet. But bottomline which should end Myers discussion is the RS could not give KC 2 MLB starters and Rays could, RS could bring in all the young hitters they want but if they don't pitch better it doesn't really matter. IMO Rays will take a step back this season, Shields will be a tough guy to replace all those CG's and IP's, but in long run it was right move because they do have the depth in pitching that RS don't. But in 2 yrs they are probably a better team as Myers starts to prove what everyone thought.

     

     

    I'm OK with not trading any of the kids, in fact that was my top plan: keep the kids and build to improve the pieces around them- not put off building around them until next year.

    Don't think Ben was putting off? Just wasn't anything good available in FA market and unfortunately maybe other teams like Rays or Blue Jays were better fits in trades w/ both Marlins and Mets. Just because we as fans want team to go out and get a starter or young OF, has to work for both sides. Small mkt teams are getting smarter now they're locking up there young talent before their arb. yrs completed to long term contracts and now a lot of young talent not making it to FA. Players like Tulo/Cargo/Moore/Posey/ AdamJones/ McCutcheon/etc.. are all signing before getting to FA. Landscape in baseball is changing for large mkt teams and their ability to take top talent from smal mkt teams, which is good for the game.

     

     

    Perhaps, KC wanted too much (beyond just Lester), but there were a lot of very nice prospects being traded away this winter, and we got none. The only real trade we made was for a one year closer. No signings involved players who will be in their prime in 2014 or 2015. The only extension we made was for Breslow. I like that deal, but I'd hardly call that a major development in improving our longterm outlook.

    We had a nice longterm outlook to begin with. I am happy we kept that intact, but simply put, I wish we had done something to improve the longterm outlook, instead of trying to convince fans that we have a legitimate chance in 2013.




    Only 2 deals where really top young talent was traded IMO was Blue Jays and Rays deals. As stated RS were not in position to give up 2 mlb starters, and I would not have given 2 of our top prospects to get a 38 yr old starter. For me this will be a telling year for RS farm system if things go right RS could have done right thing by keeping the young talent, who knows maybe even a guy like Ranaudo comes back and pitches himself back into the picture and RS are now the team w/ a surplus and can make a move like Rays did this off season?

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Doobie completed his throwing program the organization assigned him so i don't think its an offseason prep issue. They said it wasn't even that bad, just some discomfort when ramping it up in long toss. he'll be fine.

    He certainly might be fine, but it is a concern for a pitcher to have discomfort on longthrowing.

     




    meh, if it happened at the end of camp i might agree. but it's understandable to have some discomfort when pushing it day 1.

     



    Long throw is "pushing it"?

    I'm not really scared about an early injury, but just a little concerned. I'm expecting him to be OK.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    Doobie completed his throwing program the organization assigned him so i don't think its an offseason prep issue. They said it wasn't even that bad, just some discomfort when ramping it up in long toss. he'll be fine.

    He certainly might be fine, but it is a concern for a pitcher to have discomfort on longthrowing.

     




    meh, if it happened at the end of camp i might agree. but it's understandable to have some discomfort when pushing it day 1.

     

     



    Long throw is "pushing it"?

     

    I'm not really scared about an early injury, but just a little concerned. I'm expecting him to be OK.




    don't nitpick my statement, you knew what i meant!!

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    It's not "obvious" when the rumors have said the Ben turned down the KC offer, not vice versa. Perhaps the deal with Boston was less of a package for just one starter. I have not heard any specifics on what the offers and counteroffers were, and what the sticking point was.

    I'm Ok with keeping Lester, especially if we extend him once (of if) he shows he has regained his form this season, but had we chosen to build for 2014 and beyond, trading Lester for Myers would have helped, as long as we used some of the money saved on Lester's contract to upgrade on the Dempster signing (A Sanchez? a SP from next winter's FA class?)

     

    Guess we heard 2 different things. I heard once Rays were willing to include 2 MLB starters, that RS could not match that type of deal because they did not have the depth that the Rays had.The RS would probably have had to include Doubront to equal what Rays were offering. Possibly RS could have done that next year depending on what type of year Barnes/De La Rosa/Webster have this year, but even then would be huge risk.

    I'd like to know the names that were discussed. Perhaps, we may never know. I wonder if they had to be 2 pitchers. Would they have taken Lester, Ellsbury and cash?

     

     

    Even if these guys turn out to be "the real deal", we'd be better off in the longterm future with 5+ years of Myers plus whatever we get with the "saved money" from Lester vs 1-2 years of Lester, then maybe a comp draft pick.

    Or maybe Lester has that bounce back season, RS pick up his option for 2014 then sign to extension and keep the closest thing they have to a No.1 starter for the forseable future? Good starting piching toughest thing to find, while Myers probably is real deal, no should carving his bust for Cooperstown just yet. But bottomline which should end Myers discussion is the RS could not give KC 2 MLB starters and Rays could, RS could bring in all the young hitters they want but if they don't pitch better it doesn't really matter. IMO Rays will take a step back this season, Shields will be a tough guy to replace all those CG's and IP's, but in long run it was right move because they do have the depth in pitching that RS don't. But in 2 yrs they are probably a better team as Myers starts to prove what everyone thought.

    I'm not usually one to advocate trading solid pitching for a hitter, but I suggested this deal as a good one for the Sox, because as of now, I do not see the Sox extending him. I have heard rumblings of talks, but am not sure it is a good idea. His lost velocity is a big concern. You could be right: it could be a terrible mistake, if Lester has a very good 2013 and we could have extended him. Lester is still young enough to be considered part of our longterm future if we do extend him. My gut just tells me that trading him straight up for Myers would help our longterm future more than keeping Lester and hoping quite a few things happen for it to work out well with him beyond 2014.

     

     

    I'm OK with not trading any of the kids, in fact that was my top plan: keep the kids and build to improve the pieces around them- not put off building around them until next year.

    Don't think Ben was putting off? Just wasn't anything good available in FA market and unfortunately maybe other teams like Rays or Blue Jays were better fits in trades w/ both Marlins and Mets. Just because we as fans want team to go out and get a starter or young OF, has to work for both sides. Small mkt teams are getting smarter now they're locking up there young talent before their arb. yrs completed to long term contracts and now a lot of young talent not making it to FA. Players like Tulo/Cargo/Moore/Posey/ AdamJones/ McCutcheon/etc.. are all signing before getting to FA. Landscape in baseball is changing for large mkt teams and their ability to take top talent from smal mkt teams, which is good for the game.

    I meant build around them by gaining more prospects or younger players with more years of team control, along with maybe one FA that will be in his prime for 2014 & 2015 & perhaps beyond. Surely, this was not impossible to make happen.

     

     

    Perhaps, KC wanted too much (beyond just Lester), but there were a lot of very nice prospects being traded away this winter, and we got none. The only real trade we made was for a one year closer. No signings involved players who will be in their prime in 2014 or 2015. The only extension we made was for Breslow. I like that deal, but I'd hardly call that a major development in improving our longterm outlook.

    We had a nice longterm outlook to begin with. I am happy we kept that intact, but simply put, I wish we had done something to improve the longterm outlook, instead of trying to convince fans that we have a legitimate chance in 2013.

     




     

    Only 2 deals where really top young talent was traded IMO was Blue Jays and Rays deals. As stated RS were not in position to give up 2 mlb starters, and I would not have given 2 of our top prospects to get a 38 yr old starter. For me this will be a telling year for RS farm system if things go right RS could have done right thing by keeping the young talent, who knows maybe even a guy like Ranaudo comes back and pitches himself back into the picture and RS are now the team w/ a surplus and can make a move like Rays did this off season?

    Maybe not tip top prospect talent (although we'll have to agree to disagree on Myers), but maybe go all out for Brett Anderson, or come up with a better offer to pry Trevor Bauer from AZ. (AJ Cole? I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now.)

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from garyhow. Show garyhow's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    I'd like to know the names that were discussed. Perhaps, we may never know. I wonder if they had to be 2 pitchers. Would they have taken Lester, Ellsbury and cash?

    Can't see KC wanting Ells for 1 yr knowing they can't resign him? How do you explain that to your fan base, while Myers putting up big #'s in fenway.

     

     

     

    I'm not usually one to advocate trading solid pitching for a hitter, but I suggested this deal as a good one for the Sox, because as of now, I do not see the Sox extending him. I have heard rumblings of talks, but am not sure it is a good idea. His lost velocity is a big concern. You could be right: it could be a terrible mistake, if Lester has a very good 2013 and we could have extended him. Lester is still young enough to be considered part of our longterm future if we do extend him. My gut just tells me that trading him straight up for Myers would help our longterm future more than keeping Lester and hoping quite a few things happen for it to work out well with him beyond 2014.

    Think smart play w/ Lester is let this season play out. Hopefully he returns to form w/ Farrell back and extension can be agreed upon. Because while Lester hasn't been a No.1, he's still a solid #2 if he can turn it around. RS desperately need him to turn it around.

     

     

     

    I meant build around them by gaining more prospects or younger players with more years of team control, along with maybe one FA that will be in his prime for 2014 & 2015 & perhaps beyond. Surely, this was not impossible to make happen.

    Its unfortunate that the year the RS had to spend $, there really wasn't much worth spending it on. Tough to be trading guys like Lester and others for young talent when they're all coming off miserable yrs. If Lester had pitched well last yr and Shields had pitched terribly then maybe Myers could be wearing a RS uniform, but guess how many RS fans would be screaming that RS traded their best pitcher?

     

     

     

     

     

    Maybe not tip top prospect talent (although we'll have to agree to disagree on Myers), but maybe go all out for Brett Anderson, or come up with a better offer to pry Trevor Bauer from AZ. (AJ Cole? I'm sure there are others I can't think of right now.)




    I'm a little weary on Bauer he wore out his welcome in AZ awfully quickly. As for Brett Anderson would love to see him in RS uniform, but w/ A's coming off winning the AL West they are no longer looking to unload & rebuild, if anything they've been adding to a team they think has a chance to be a factor this year. Personally I think they take a step back, if they do then RS might be able to get Anderson next offseason. A's are always one yr away from rebuilding again.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to mef429's comment:

     

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

     

    In response to Ice-Cream's comment:

     

    I read somewhere that Oakland signed Okajima. 

    Billy Beane's plan is very simple--trade with Arizona and sign former Red Sox players   LOL

     




    I think Cleveland is subscribing to the former red sox thing to some extent also...They just signed Bourn as well...

     

    Im starting to worry about Doubie now. I really hope his shoulder weakness is not from lack of off season preparation. Breslow is suffering from the same thing so maybe not. Have to wait and see.

    I think we will see RDLR this year and Morales might possibly start the season if Doubie isnt ready.

    Buch? Not worried at all. Hes always in shape coming into camp. Just a minor tweak.

    I Just hope this team has the right depth when players go down, cause some will.

     



    Doobie completed his throwing program the organization assigned him so i don't think its an offseason prep issue. They said it wasn't even that bad, just some discomfort when ramping it up in long toss. he'll be fine.

     

     




    Ok thats good. I just worry because he came into camp in 2011 fat and out of shape.

     

    Actually, when i saw a vid of him this year, he looked like he had a little gut going. Might have just been the way he was wearing his shirt though...Im probably worrying about nothing. Its the first coupledays of camp and Im sure they are just being overly cautious. Ok, just heard hes throwing today...all is good.

     

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