A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    The play last night with the great play at SS by Iglesias and throw to firstbase should have been an out if Adria Gonzalez was playing first but he wasn't. Napoli made a decent stretch but his feet got mixed up. No big deal - we won the game. No crisis or need to scapegoat.



    Why do you assume anytime someone points out a slight mistake by one of our players, we are "scapegoating", "trolling" or a sectret yankee fan?

    There is never a crisis based on any one game or even a week. 

    I'm not an Ellsbury hater. Any player on this team who will be a FA after this year and is likely to walk, I'd have taken the same position.

    I have advocated extending Salty, but also have said that if he is not in our longterm plans, we should trade him for something that might help us for many years to come.

    I have defended Ellsbury over the years vs softy's bashing more than anyone on this site, except for possibly boom.

     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to RedsoxProspects' comment:

    Ellsbury has always been a careful player. To a fault. He's still a great player.

    Now Victorino and Gomes, that's another story!

    By the way, I worked sports events on TV crews for years. Of course there are shots showing the OF positions at the time contact. It's called a "cover" shot by the way. And at the time of contact a director often cuts to it to give the audience the feel for the direction of the ball and the play in general. As we see the ball leave the infield don't we always see the OF in motion? I mean come on. The OF rarely makes even 2 steps before being on screen. That cut to the cover shot is generally 1/2 second or so after the hit. So we can see the OF running almost instantaneously.

    Often followed by a closer range shot in the area where the ball was hit. In baseball, each cameraman has an area to cover and generally aautomatic instructions on what to do with each hit.  One guy might be covering the pitcher and hitter combo and then follow the ball with a zoom for example. Another guy is working the stands for crowd shots. Another guy is doing the cover shot etc.

    A major game like this would probably involve at least 5 cameras. Something like the World Series maybe as many as 10-12. These are just estimates as I've never done MLB events specifically but I've done similar sports and entertainment programs.   

    I wouldn't worry about some of these guys Moon. They are obviously wasting your time. 




    Thanks for the interesting info, Boom..

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    If he is steps into the pursuit of the ball when the camera first shows him then how can you surmise that he got a poor jump. It is similar to watching the 100 yard dash in track without a camera focused on the starting line.



    I can see how fast he is running after the split second or 1 second camera switch. If he is just getting started, one can rightfully assume, he got a slow break. I've seen OF'ers, including Ellsbury at near full speed by the time the camera switches to the fielder. I'm not sure why you can't see it on your 70 inch LED.

    Besides, I am not basing my position on plays not shown in frame, but I thought it wortwhile to mention it. I have seen enough baseball to know what you can and cannot see on TV and live in person. I have seen several late breaks by Ellsbury over the years- less and less as time goes by, but still more than what I consider his "fair share". There are also camera angles that show poor routes taken to the ball. I have not been saying it is a huge weakness of Ellsbury, but recently it still is a slight issue. I guess to you, this is blasphemy.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    The Red Sox this season already have spent four more days in first place than the Sox did in the entire 2012 season (when the Sox peaked at third place in the AL East):

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2012-schedule-scores.shtml

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

     

    Can Moon retract his post when he said that Ells wasn't leaning in towards the plate when Ichiro hit that blooper to RF that fell in.  Yet every camera view had Ells coming into the picture from left to right running at a high speed. Perhaps Ells was scratching his rear, leaning backwards, and blowing his nose. Give me a break, even Softlaw wouldn't be so ridiculous. Ampoule must be gullible also.

     

     

    What is your problem?

    "Leaning in towards home"? On a ball hit to the OF? Who cares what way he's leaning? You are a lost child.

    First, you confuse the baserunning comment I made with the OF play, and now you are lying about what I said. Here is what I wrote a few pages back. No where did I say Ellsbury got a bad break on the ball, in fact, I said the camera did not show it. My issue was wether or not he should have dove for the ball.

    I underlined the part to make it easier for you to keep up.

    Get real TVGUY, and FYI, I won't accept your apology or "retraction", even if you were man enough to offer it...

    If you do feel the need to apologize, hoiw about repaying me by staying away from this thread forever? Deal?

     

     

    Redsoxprospects,

    I noticed the same thing about Bradley on the replay--he saw the ball, turned his back, ran hard, then turned back to the ball to make the catch.  Very impressive.  He seems to exude confidence. 

     



    It was a very nice catch. 

     

    Anyone think Ellsbury could have caught that one he almost dived for?

    Close call.

    The announcer said he did the right thing rather than risk a flub, but Shane was right there. Had he missed it, it wouldn't have gone far.

     



    i don't think he could've gotten to it even if he dove. the ball landed to his left so he would have had to dive pretty far and reach across his body to try and catch it.

     

     



    It looked like he got a good break on the ball, but the TV angle switched to the other camera at the wrong instant, and they never showed the replay with Ellsbury in the frame as the ball was hit, as they normally do on bang-bang plays.

     

    It would have been a very difficult diving catch had he made it. I'm not criticizing him, but I do think that with the trajectory of the ball (not a lined shot), and Shane being right there to keep the ball from rolling for a triple, Ellsbury could have tried.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from jcri. Show jcri's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    TV Guy, I've only read you this evening but you sound rude, obnoxious, and surly.  This is a short sample of course, and Moon always encourages us not to judge on short samples but give it more time.  There are sometimes some big arguments here, but we try to respect the man even if we don't like his idea.  If you can do this you will be welcome.  

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.


    +100

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to jcri's comment:

    TV Guy, I've only read you this evening but you sound rude, obnoxious, and surly.  This is a short sample of course, and Moon always encourages us not to judge on short samples but give it more time.  There are sometimes some big arguments here, but we try to respect the man even if we don't like his idea.  If you can do this you will be welcome.  

     



    Thanks for trying to help, and I should have just ignored TVGuy. He has a history behind him and several past identities and bannings.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to dannycater's comment:

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.




    Are these fundamentals 'learned' or is a lot of it genetic, natural talent?

    I think most of it is God given...just honed.  Otherwise, every player who really wanted to would be superior.

    It's like playing the piano.  Not all piano players, even if they practiced until the cows came home, are capable of playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2....even with years of teaching.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to ampoule's comment:

    In response to dannycater's comment:

     

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.

     




     

    Are these fundamentals 'learned' or is a lot of it genetic, natural talent?

    I think most of it is God given...just honed.  Otherwise, every player who really wanted to would be superior.

    It's like playing the piano.  Not all piano players, even if they practiced until the cows came home, are capable of playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2....even with years of teaching.



    1. In my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to ampoule's comment:

     

    In response to dannycater's comment:

     

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.

     




     

    Are these fundamentals 'learned' or is a lot of it genetic, natural talent?

    I think most of it is God given...just honed.  Otherwise, every player who really wanted to would be superior.

    It's like playing the piano.  Not all piano players, even if they practiced until the cows came home, are capable of playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2....even with years of teaching.

     



     

    1. In my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 



    great post DG. this is what happens when you back up opinions with fact and logic. +1

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to ampoule's comment:

     

    In response to dannycater's comment:

     

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.

     




     

    Are these fundamentals 'learned' or is a lot of it genetic, natural talent?

    I think most of it is God given...just honed.  Otherwise, every player who really wanted to would be superior.

    It's like playing the piano.  Not all piano players, even if they practiced until the cows came home, are capable of playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2....even with years of teaching.

     



     

    1. In my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 




    Exactly!...nice info.  I've played lots of baseball myself and agree that it takes more than just fundamentals to exceed.

    My intentions weren't negative.  I hope you didn't misinterpret.

     
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  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ellsbury doesn't have "blazing speed". His speed has declined, and it will continue to decline. He will and has declined defensively, on the total bases, and his OBP will decline over the last stage of his career.




    do you have any numbers to support this highly opinionated -and likely garbage- claim?

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Again, Ellsbury is a "careful" player. He doesn't make a lot of mistakes. He doesn't take a lot of chances. But overall he is a good fielder and the numbers have mounted up. We are talking about a guy who has really had only one bad defensive year and I would think that Fenway is not an easy CF to play.

    To this day he is still under appreciated.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Then again he was injured last year but that is irrelevant in your world. As long as it supports your position. You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago.

    It is interesting that most people discredit Ellsbury's defense more than anything and historically that is his strongest asset according to fangraphs:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4727&position=OF

    He is a center fielder putting up excellent defensive numbers year after year. If he can come anywhere near his 2011 offensive numbers in 2013 he will be a $100 million dollar player. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    n my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 

    1) My preconceived opinion of Ellsbury's fielding was that he was one of the best in 2008. I spent more posts defending Ellsbury against softy and others than anyone, except maybe boom, so where's my "preconceived bias? It was after hearing people criticize his late breaks and poor routes that I started watching more closely. I get your point about staying still for a split second; I have played some OF in my life as well. It's not easy. However, some OF'ers seem to have a knack at judging these hits better than others and racting quicker.

    2) Ellsbury gets to a lot of balls. That's the bottom line for me. He is certainly a plus CF'er on defense, and in my opinion is a top 5 CF'er in MLB. Most of this is a result of his speed. All I said was that his defense is not as good as Bradley's, because he has one of the weakest arms in CF in MLB, and he still gets "slightly" more than his fair share of late breaks and poor routes to balls hit his way.

    3) I never said he got a bad break on the hit on opening day. All I said was this,

    It looked like he got a good break on the ball, but the TV angle switched to the other camera at the wrong instant, and they never showed the replay with Ellsbury in the frame as the ball was hit, as they normally do on bang-bang plays.

     

    It would have been a very difficult diving catch had he made it. I'm not criticizing him, but I do think that with the trajectory of the ball (not a lined shot), and Shane being right there to keep the ball from rolling for a triple, Ellsbury could have tried.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    ...You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago....

    It wasn't by chance (dart throw); it was all because Jacoby went to a liberal left coast university, was all hyped up by top brass, took away his beloved Coco's job, and then had the audacity to play great when softy was complaining about him having the job over Coco. The fact that he proved softy wrong early in his career cemented the hatred and vitriol for good.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    ...You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago....

    It wasn't by chance (dart throw); it was all because Jacoby went to a liberal left coast university, was all hyped up by top brass, took away his beloved Coco's job, and then had the audacity to play great when softy was complaining about him having the job over Coco. The fact that he proved softy wrong early in his career cemented the hatred and vitriol for good.




    Actually, OSU(Oregon State University), where Ellsbury went, is considered the conservative university out here as compared to UO(University of Oregon).

     

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