A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

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    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to ampoule's comment:

    In response to dannycater's comment:

     

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.

     




     

    Are these fundamentals 'learned' or is a lot of it genetic, natural talent?

    I think most of it is God given...just honed.  Otherwise, every player who really wanted to would be superior.

    It's like playing the piano.  Not all piano players, even if they practiced until the cows came home, are capable of playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2....even with years of teaching.



    1. In my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 
     
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    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to ampoule's comment:

     

    In response to dannycater's comment:

     

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.

     




     

    Are these fundamentals 'learned' or is a lot of it genetic, natural talent?

    I think most of it is God given...just honed.  Otherwise, every player who really wanted to would be superior.

    It's like playing the piano.  Not all piano players, even if they practiced until the cows came home, are capable of playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2....even with years of teaching.

     



     

    1. In my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 



    great post DG. this is what happens when you back up opinions with fact and logic. +1

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    In response to ampoule's comment:

     

    In response to dannycater's comment:

     

    Victorino is a terrific fielder...Ellsbury is spectacular athletically, but like many guys over the years, he is fundamentally lost. He makes up for his lack of fundamentals with blazing speed. Dwight Evans was so fundamentally sound (and guys like Ellis Valentine), but most are guys who aren't reading the ball correctly off the bat, or hesitate and then go. The greatest fielders don't have to have the speed to get to the ball, they use their fundamentals and ability to read the ball off the bat. Fred Lynn read the ball as well as anyone. Jim Edmonds same thing. But speedy outfielders are great and make great catches and it's about the speed to make up for some of those fundamentals they didn't learn early on.

     




     

    Are these fundamentals 'learned' or is a lot of it genetic, natural talent?

    I think most of it is God given...just honed.  Otherwise, every player who really wanted to would be superior.

    It's like playing the piano.  Not all piano players, even if they practiced until the cows came home, are capable of playing Hungarian Rhapsody #2....even with years of teaching.

     



     

    1. In my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 




    Exactly!...nice info.  I've played lots of baseball myself and agree that it takes more than just fundamentals to exceed.

    My intentions weren't negative.  I hope you didn't misinterpret.

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to softlaw2's comment:

    Ellsbury doesn't have "blazing speed". His speed has declined, and it will continue to decline. He will and has declined defensively, on the total bases, and his OBP will decline over the last stage of his career.




    do you have any numbers to support this highly opinionated -and likely garbage- claim?

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Again, Ellsbury is a "careful" player. He doesn't make a lot of mistakes. He doesn't take a lot of chances. But overall he is a good fielder and the numbers have mounted up. We are talking about a guy who has really had only one bad defensive year and I would think that Fenway is not an easy CF to play.

    To this day he is still under appreciated.

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    Then again he was injured last year but that is irrelevant in your world. As long as it supports your position. You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago.

    It is interesting that most people discredit Ellsbury's defense more than anything and historically that is his strongest asset according to fangraphs:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=4727&position=OF

    He is a center fielder putting up excellent defensive numbers year after year. If he can come anywhere near his 2011 offensive numbers in 2013 he will be a $100 million dollar player. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    n my life , I have  played all three outfield positions. Not on a professional level. Reading the ball off the bat is extremely difficult at times. I was taught to stay still for a split second until you can better judge the flight. The worst thing is to break in and then have to reverse and go back. Much of what you hear about some guys getting a great read on the ball is mythology. Just for information : In 2011 , Ellsbury lead all A.L. Outfielders with 388 putouts. He had no errors and six assists. Fred Lynn had more putouts only twice in his career. 404 in 1975 and 408 in 1978 . In each of those years, he had seven errors. Fred was charged with 55 errors in his career. Ellsbury has been charged with five so far in his career. Sometimes we see things as we like to see them. I am not necessarily saying that Ellsbury is a better center fielder than Lynn. Just saying that we should try to be more objective and avoid some preconceived notions. There is no " fundamental  " that teaches you how to judge a fly ball off the bat. You learn from experience. 

    1) My preconceived opinion of Ellsbury's fielding was that he was one of the best in 2008. I spent more posts defending Ellsbury against softy and others than anyone, except maybe boom, so where's my "preconceived bias? It was after hearing people criticize his late breaks and poor routes that I started watching more closely. I get your point about staying still for a split second; I have played some OF in my life as well. It's not easy. However, some OF'ers seem to have a knack at judging these hits better than others and racting quicker.

    2) Ellsbury gets to a lot of balls. That's the bottom line for me. He is certainly a plus CF'er on defense, and in my opinion is a top 5 CF'er in MLB. Most of this is a result of his speed. All I said was that his defense is not as good as Bradley's, because he has one of the weakest arms in CF in MLB, and he still gets "slightly" more than his fair share of late breaks and poor routes to balls hit his way.

    3) I never said he got a bad break on the hit on opening day. All I said was this,

    It looked like he got a good break on the ball, but the TV angle switched to the other camera at the wrong instant, and they never showed the replay with Ellsbury in the frame as the ball was hit, as they normally do on bang-bang plays.

     

    It would have been a very difficult diving catch had he made it. I'm not criticizing him, but I do think that with the trajectory of the ball (not a lined shot), and Shane being right there to keep the ball from rolling for a triple, Ellsbury could have tried.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    ...You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago....

    It wasn't by chance (dart throw); it was all because Jacoby went to a liberal left coast university, was all hyped up by top brass, took away his beloved Coco's job, and then had the audacity to play great when softy was complaining about him having the job over Coco. The fact that he proved softy wrong early in his career cemented the hatred and vitriol for good.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    ...You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago....

    It wasn't by chance (dart throw); it was all because Jacoby went to a liberal left coast university, was all hyped up by top brass, took away his beloved Coco's job, and then had the audacity to play great when softy was complaining about him having the job over Coco. The fact that he proved softy wrong early in his career cemented the hatred and vitriol for good.




    Actually, OSU(Oregon State University), where Ellsbury went, is considered the conservative university out here as compared to UO(University of Oregon).

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jidgef. Show jidgef's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    I've been gone for a couple days, traveling back home, and it seems as if I never left. In fact, it looks like someone turned the clock back five years because here is Softy ranting against Ellsbury just like the good old days. Someone else mentioned this earlier, but I would love to see Ells resign here, for many years, have a great career, AND continue to read Softy explain how much slower he's gotten and how badly he breaks on balls, and my all-time favorite, how his reverse-pivot makes him a fourth outfielder profile at best.

    And if having Softy back to bash Ells isn't enough, we get the new guy, TV guy in fact, to argue, discredit and simply annoy the regulars here. Who are you and what is your point?

    Amp great to see you back! I've played and coached this game for many years and there are instincts, for lack of a better term, that can not be taught. They can be improved upon with time and repetition, but many people don't have the innate ability to run in one direction while looking over their shoulder in another for a 2 1/2 inch sphere that is 300 feet away from them. I spent most of my playing life as a catcher, but I remember when my dad first converted me from shortstop to catcher (our catcher had broken his arm on our little-league team 55 years or so ago) he said he hated to do it because I was the only player he had who knew where the ball was going to be hit and was already moving in that direction before the batter made contact. Later in life as I played more beer-belly softball games I played the outfield and I could do the same thing. No idea how or why, just instinct. Of course I needed the instincts to make up for my lack of athleticiscm relative to these MLB level players.

    Now great athletes like Ellsbury may not, in fact I know he does not, have that instinct, but with practice and repetition and experience AND with great speed, they can overcome that split second  of indecision that JD Drew, Edmunds, Paul Blair and many other great outfielders, including young Jackie Bradley, seem to possess. 

    We're off to our best start in years, in spite of Andy Pettite, why can't we all just enjoy it? 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from jidgef. Show jidgef's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to ampoule's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    ...You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago....

    It wasn't by chance (dart throw); it was all because Jacoby went to a liberal left coast university, was all hyped up by top brass, took away his beloved Coco's job, and then had the audacity to play great when softy was complaining about him having the job over Coco. The fact that he proved softy wrong early in his career cemented the hatred and vitriol for good.

     




     

    Actually, OSU(Oregon State University), where Ellsbury went, is considered the conservative university out here as compared to UO(University of Oregon).



    Aren't you up early on left coast time!

    Did anyone else have this same thought? Last night I was watching on NESN where they have added the Amica pitch zone box full time. Why is is that Pettite and Rivera only need to be near that box to get a strike called while Dempster needed to be several inches inside the box? It seemed the very definition of home-town umpiring to me, assuming that there is any accuracy to that box in the first place.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to jidgef's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to ampoule's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    ...You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago....

    It wasn't by chance (dart throw); it was all because Jacoby went to a liberal left coast university, was all hyped up by top brass, took away his beloved Coco's job, and then had the audacity to play great when softy was complaining about him having the job over Coco. The fact that he proved softy wrong early in his career cemented the hatred and vitriol for good.

     




     

    Actually, OSU(Oregon State University), where Ellsbury went, is considered the conservative university out here as compared to UO(University of Oregon).

     



    Aren't you up early on left coast time!

     

    Did anyone else have this same thought? Last night I was watching on NESN where they have added the Amica pitch zone box full time. Why is is that Pettite and Rivera only need to be near that box to get a strike called while Dempster needed to be several inches inside the box? It seemed the very definition of home-town umpiring to me, assuming that there is any accuracy to that box in the first place.

    [/QUOTE

    Yeah, I was up around.. 6:30 or so...kind of normal.

    I agree with your observation. The strike zone for Dempster seemed a LOT tighter.  I didn't think he pitched that badly really.  Overbay's blooper had seeing eyes and Hafner's blast in the first row in right field would have been an out anywhere else.  And, Ross's out would probably have been a homer anywhere else.  Oh well....life goes on.

    I think nothing is worse than playing center field and have a ball hit directly at you. Man, it would paralyze me. If by chance it was a knuckler, it was even worse.  The first critical decision is to determine if the ball is coming out to you or was it fouled off the back screen  ..LOL

    Good to have you back, Jid. I hope the father-in-law is doing well.

     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from ampoule. Show ampoule's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

    In response to TV-Guy's comment:

     

    I've been watching for jumps to the ball by outfielders on both teams and replaying it about five times from the replay angle of behind the plate. In every situation, it appears that the outfielder is already in motion by the time that he is in view on the replay. He may have taken 4-8 steps before we see said outfielder.

    Moon had to be joking when he said that he saw Ellsbury not leaning towards the plate on contact the other night. Me thinks that Moon likes to do Softlaw. That is like saying that you saw Ellsbury scratching his rear end when contact was made. This however is what makes the forum interesting. Bogus baloney.

     




    Not many replays show the third base runner as the batter makes contact.  But if Moonslav saw it , it must be true.  After all , he is all knowing. He is our leader , our elder statesman. He must never be questioned , even when posting bogus baloney.

     

     



    MOON: I just watched it again on replay. It shows the pitch and the runner from 2 different angles. Ellsbury was not even leaning towards home as the pitch reached hom plate.

     

    Two angles guys.

    Before you spew nonsensse, at least go back and watch the play from both angles, then admit it is your bogus baloney and your "arrogance" that won't allow you to see truth if it knocks you upside your noggin.

     



     

    "Ellsbury was not even leaning towards home as the pitch reached hom plate."

    "Ellsbury was not even leaning towards home as the pitch reached hom plate."

     

    Not shown in any replay 

    Not visible even if replay showed him at moment of contact.

    Watch tonight's game and tell me if the naked eye can see a player 200 ft. away on TV leaning in or not.

    This is pure nonsense.

    Tell us please that he are joking or imitating Softlaw. 

    Utterly ridiculous.

    10 mil. watching the game and only Moon saw that. LOL

     

     

     


    TV Guy, get a grip, man.




     




     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jidgef. Show jidgef's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    My father-in-law is fine, I'm actually taking a couple adys off and we have an agency handling him for the weekend, thanks for asking.

    My older son's first high school varsity game, he was playing centerfield, he was a catcher but got called up for an injury to the starter, and a line drive was hit right at him. He broke in and the ball sailed over his head and rolled forever. The hitter was standing at home by the time Charlie caught up with the ball. He was back catching the next game and became a central Mass all-star there by his senior year. Point of the story, you are correct; the ball hit right at you is the most difficult to judge.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to jidgef's comment:

    My father-in-law is fine, I'm actually taking a couple adys off and we have an agency handling him for the weekend, thanks for asking.

    My older son's first high school varsity game, he was playing centerfield, he was a catcher but got called up for an injury to the starter, and a line drive was hit right at him. He broke in and the ball sailed over his head and rolled forever. The hitter was standing at home by the time Charlie caught up with the ball. He was back catching the next game and became a central Mass all-star there by his senior year. Point of the story, you are correct; the ball hit right at you is the most difficult to judge.



    Thanks for the spring training updates. Didn't want to forget to mention that. Very entertaining and informative.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedsoxProspects. Show RedsoxProspects's posts

    Re: A Realistic View at 2013: Part II

    In response to ampoule's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    ...You know, the one you formulated by throwing at a dart board years ago....

    It wasn't by chance (dart throw); it was all because Jacoby went to a liberal left coast university, was all hyped up by top brass, took away his beloved Coco's job, and then had the audacity to play great when softy was complaining about him having the job over Coco. The fact that he proved softy wrong early in his career cemented the hatred and vitriol for good.

     




     

    Actually, OSU(Oregon State University), where Ellsbury went, is considered the conservative university out here as compared to UO(University of Oregon).



    Those Ducks are flat out communists aren't they! But they can play football!

     
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