A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    As has been explained many times by Moon on this forum, the Red Sox do not have much money left to spend if they stay under the tax thresh hold (I've seen the number 6 million thrown around so i'll go with that). An easy way to add a couple of million to that would be to sign Papi. I'm going to assume Papi would make 14 mil if he went to arbitration. So why not give him a two year deal for 2 years and 22 mil. He would make 12 mil the first year and 10 mil the next year. But 11 mil would go towards the cap in each year. Thats an extra 3 mil to spend before going over the cap. That may not seem like much but when we are talking about 6 mil to start with that is a 50% increase. And with Dice Scut Jenks and most likely youk coming off the payroll next year (with cheap replacements for all of them), that 11 mil won't hurt us as much next year.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from fizsh. Show fizsh's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    This is exactly what the Sox are trying to do, but maybe not for as much as you say.  But I think Ortiz wants more than $22 million for two years.  So they are apart on this issue.  
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from traven. Show traven's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    They don't really have a lot of choice except to sign him.  His numbers would be tough to replace but just put a body in the 5 slot to back up A-Gon is not going to be easy if they don't sign him.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    It is reported that David wants 25 mil for two years.  Sox offered 18.

    Splitting the difference would end up at about the 22 mil per suggested here.  I would also offer an option for a third year at 11 mil, with a 3 million dollar buyout.  That way, Ortiz gets his 25 million at a minimum, and as much as 33 million and 3 years of security at a max.  That should entice him, and it saves the Sox 3 or 4 million this season.

    I was hoping Ortiz would find a better offer and leave, but now that he has accepted arbitration the Sox need to overspend a bit to save themselves from overspending a lot.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxforlife22. Show soxforlife22's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]It is reported that David wants 25 mil for two years.  Sox offered 18. Splitting the difference would end up at about the 22 mil per suggested here.  I would also offer an option for a third year at 11 mil, with a 3 million dollar buyout.  That way, Ortiz gets his 25 million at a minimum, and as much as 33 million and 3 years of security at a max.  That should entice him, and it saves the Sox 3 or 4 million this season. I was hoping Ortiz would find a better offer and leave, but now that he has accepted arbitration the Sox need to overspend a bit to save themselves from overspending a lot.
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]
    Thats a really good idea. And yes i was hoping he would find another home but now that he's here i really like your idea for a contract
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]It is reported that David wants 25 mil for two years.  Sox offered 18. Splitting the difference would end up at about the 22 mil per suggested here.  I would also offer an option for a third year at 11 mil, with a 3 million dollar buyout.  That way, Ortiz gets his 25 million at a minimum, and as much as 33 million and 3 years of security at a max.  That should entice him, and it saves the Sox 3 or 4 million this season. I was hoping Ortiz would find a better offer and leave, but now that he has accepted arbitration the Sox need to overspend a bit to save themselves from overspending a lot.
    Posted by parhunter1[/QUOTE]

    When you have information that nobody else has such as the above then why not include a link or at least give us a source so that we can see how credible the information is? I read almost everything and this is new to me.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    Here is one link that puts both pieces of information out there in one sentence, though this is not the only place I read this information...go to MLBtaderumors.com and click on Red Sox rumors.  Go back a few pages and find it all as it developed leading up to the arbitration deadline for players to accept.


    http://twitter.com/#!/ESPNJoeyMac/status/144165229780140032
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    You can always sign and trade Papi based on what Dan D is willing to spend on Papi before Arb and slip Youk in as our DH. 

    There are other options--if need be the Sox can pay a couple of M toward his salary and trade him to Baltimore for Guthrie or JJ. They get a drawing card and DH we get the # 4 or #5 starter we need and have a little money left over.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from never1954. Show never1954's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    Sign and trade?  Isn't he a 10-5.  Probably won't take a trade if he already has the money.  Like Parhunter, I like the 2 with an option/buyout.  That is probably the best way to save any money and he may likely be motivated to work a little in the 2nd year of the contract to earn the 3rd.  Plus a 3 mil buyout won't hurt to much.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years



    Here's another cost saving option:
    Offer papi this...
    year 1 $12M
    year 2 $9M
    year 3 $6M club option with $1M buyout.

    Luxury Tax: $22M/3 or $7.33M a year hit

    Basically, it's $23M/2 deal. Since he knows he will probably get $13-14M in arb for 1 year, the second year is at about $9-10M. He may think that is disrespect and turn down the deal, but I wouldn't go much higher than this for a multi-year deal.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from JB-3. Show JB-3's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]The problem is that we have about $6-10M to spend INCLUDING whatever we sopend on Papi, so he will eat up every bit and then some. The only way we can stay under the threshold and sign Papi is to trade some salary. (Youk $12M, Scut & Jenks $6M, Iggy $2M...) Here's another cost saving option: Offer papi this... year 1 $12M year 2 $9M year 3 $6M club option with $1M buyout. Luxury Tax: $22M/3 or $7.33M a year hit Basically, it's $23M/2 deal. Since he knows he will probably get $13-14M in arb for 1 year, the second year is at about $9-10M. He may think that is disrespect and turn down the deal, but I wouldn't go much higher than this for a multi-year deal.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Moving Youk would only free up around $10M in AAV, not $12M.  Also, where are you getting $6M-$10M before Papi?  Alex Speier recently had a breakdown of the Sox payroll situation for tax purposes and showed $6M-$10M after allocating $14M to Papi and taking the benefits charge into account.  I'll see if I can find the article.

    Update:  I found the article.


    We have about $6M after giving Papi $14M for 2012.  He had Lowrie at $1.5M, so no change following the Lowrie trade and Punto signing.  Shoppach is included in these numbers already.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years : Moving Youk would only free up around $10M in AAV, not $12M.  Also, where are you getting $6M-$10M before Papi?  Alex Speier recently had a breakdown of the Sox payroll situation for tax purposes and showed $6M-$10M after allocating $14M to Papi and taking the benefits charge into account.  I'll see if I can find the article.
    Posted by JB-3[/QUOTE]

    Baseball reference has our projected payroll after arb to be $156.9M, not counting Papi. Add the $2M player pension fund and that leaves $19M. 

    I meant to say $6-10M to spend after Papi.

    (I edited my previous post to correct it)

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    I rather to just have Boston to sign him just for one more year, and let him walk away from the organization for good.  But that is too costly.

    To save money just for the 2012 season, I think Boston should just sign him for two years (hopefully an option on the second year with up to 1.5 million dollars buyout).  

    Papi should accepts the two years deal.  Cuz what if he just want one year contract by winning the abritration case that is worth 14 million dollars for the 2012 season. Then suddenly he have a bad year during the 2012 season, and he will know that he isnt going to be getting new contract that may not be worth more than 6 to 7 million dollars contract for the 2013 season.  

    That is why Boston would save money on either way.  Like either to let him to take one year deal where it will effect payroll for the 2012 season, but save $$$ for 2013 season where Boston is more likely going to let him walk away from the club.  Or make him to take two years deal where Boston could save $$$ for the 2012 season, but may be costly for the 2013 season depending the health of Papi and the offense productions of 2012 season.






     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    So, it seems many fans are simply intent on paying Ortiz beyond his worth. He had 2 BAD years, and rebounded with 2 remarkable years (both contract years, by the way). Is it really reasonable to think he'll match 10/11 in 12/13? I don't think so. Ortiz' age and 100+ years of baseball history seem to point to 'no'.

    I don't want him at all. Really, at any price. I'd prefer to keep the DH spot for flexibility. If/when (more likely WHEN) Youk gets b a n g e d up, and can maybe hit, but not field. Lavarnway could have taken some at bats there, many people are clamoring to see him at the ML level. Adrian could need some time off the field. Kalish/Reddick could use some ML at bats. None of that is possible with Ortiz on the roster.

    So aside from hamstringing the roster/lineup, and likely being a financial drain, he also has a bad attitude. There is PLENTY evidence of that. Beat reporters have been commenting for over a year that he's simply not the same laughing, smiling, happy-go-lucky guy. He's openly complained about:

    His contract for 2 years
    Stats for 2 years
    "Drama" in the clubhouse that may have led him to NY (rather than, you know, be a clubhouse leader or anything)

    He bristles when anyone DARE question his ability.

    I wish he wasn't coming back AT ALL, to think of offering him the money and years he wants is a complete joke. Why not just enable him further?

    Dang close to 30/100 2 years running. How many playoff appearances in those 2 years? People worry about replacing something the Sox DON'T NEED.

    Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. There is a clinical definition for that kind of mindset.

    Time for a change, and it shoiuld have STARTED with Ortiz. Not Theo. Not Francona. Ortiz should have been the first to go.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    And on the one hand, people talk about saving money. Then transition into talking about giving multiple years to a mid-late 30s slugger!

    A way to save money - DON'T SIGN ORTIZ.

    And for the record, I have serious concerns about Ortiz coming up Braun-like. He was full of bs when talking about his name on the original list, thumped his chest preached about injustice and promised to let US ALL know exactly what happened.

    Then...

    crickets

    He's a greedy, 'me first' player. He wasn't always, but he is now.

    Sunglasses at night, colorful brand name leather coats...someone remind him hes' getting into his late 30s. He looks like a fool.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    another cost saving option would have been to let Mr. "strong as hell"" I am a beast " walk.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from UticaClub. Show UticaClub's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]And on the one hand, people talk about saving money. Then transition into talking about giving multiple years to a mid-late 30s slugger! A way to save money - DON'T SIGN ORTIZ. And for the record, I have serious concerns about Ortiz coming up Braun-like. He was full of bs when talking about his name on the original list, thumped his chest preached about injustice and promised to let US ALL know exactly what happened. Then... crickets He's a greedy, 'me first' player. He wasn't always, but he is now. Sunglasses at night, colorful brand name leather coats...someone remind him hes' getting into his late 30s. He looks like a fool.
    Posted by ma6dragon9[/QUOTE]


     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    A way to save money - DON'T SIGN ORTIZ.

    Papi accepted arbitration. He either signs before the hearing's decision, or he gets what the hearing determines. Not signing him is not an option at this point. Signing and trading could be.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]Sign and trade?  Isn't he a 10-5.  Probably won't take a trade if he already has the money.  Like Parhunter, I like the 2 with an option/buyout.  That is probably the best way to save any money and he may likely be motivated to work a little in the 2nd year of the contract to earn the 3rd.  Plus a 3 mil buyout won't hurt to much.
    Posted by never1954[/QUOTE]

    Ortiz could invoke the 10/5 clause but he may not if he's getting the contract he wants and knows the Sox (a.) don't really want him or (b.) The Orioles may want him enough to guarantee him a third year.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from rgmfick. Show rgmfick's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    Think the Red Sox should still make a decision whether Youkilis, Saltalamacchia, Lavarway are likely to be on the team in 2013.  Big Papi is already locked into playing in 2012 and I see giving a AGON a day off occasionally and having one of them DH gives the Manager a lot of choices.  To sign Big Papi to 2 Seasons does not make sense.  It seems it just delays the tough decisions, and neglect to factor in that Big Papi, going into the 2013 Season will 2 years older.

     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years : Ortiz could invoke the 10/5 clause but he may not if he's getting the contract he wants and knows the Sox (a.) don't really want him or (b.) The Orioles may want him enough to guarantee him a third year.
    Posted by MadMc44[/QUOTE]

    Yes, but let's add this... what if the Sox tell him $22M/2 or $25M/2 and you agree to a trade to Baltimore. Maybe he'd take it. (We can't expect to get much in trade...maybe nothing. We may have to pitch in a few million, but we'd save a lot and be able to use Lava were he belongs...DH, and maybe not suffer a loss greater than we can gain by spending Papi's money on pitching needs.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years : Yes, but let's add this... what if the Sox tell him $22M/2 or $25M/2 and you agree to a trade to Baltimore. Maybe he'd take it. (We can't expect to get much in trade...maybe nothing. We may have to pitch in a few million, but we'd save a lot and be able to use Lava were he belongs...DH, and maybe not suffer a loss greater than we can gain by spending Papi's money on pitching needs.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Moon, I do think if we traded Papi within the division to the O's Duquette might trade us Guthrie or Johnson especially if Ben sweetened the pie with a few Mill. of John Henry's money and perhaps a prospect.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    Dan D could have had Papi by just calling his agent and saying "Tell Papi to not accept the arb; we'll pay him $26M/2 or $34M/3." 

    Why would he trade a lot now to get Papi at $22M/2?
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: A way to save money: sign Papi for 2 years

    $4 M to $12 M over 2 to 3 years.

    I think Ben might be willing to include a PTBNL if the deal included Guthrie or Jim Johnson. 

    Papi would put up some pretty good numbers in that park--he would also draw some people and they would sell some TV ads for late innings with the chance of him batting in the 8th or 9th with the game on the line.
     

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