A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    and you wonder if BV is purposely undermining Bard's attempt at cracking the rotation.
    Posted by Joebreidey


    And therein lies the problem Joey.  IMO, the FO made a move for Bailey (and Melancon) with a specific idea in mind - that Bailey would close and Bard would be in the rotation.  Granted, there was never any guarantee that Bard would succeed in the rotation, but it almost seems like Valentine is ignoring the plan that the FO had in mind, and undoing their offseason work.  A team cannot have its manager undermining the work of the GM.

    I would have no problem seeing Bard back in the pen, but if he is indeed there at the start of the season, then he was never given a fair chance to succeed as a starter.  That, I have a problem with.  I'm sure Bard would not be happy about that either, especially if he ends up in the set up role, as there are no guarantees that he will succeed as a closer either.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : And therein lies the problem Joey.  IMO, the FO made a move for Bailey (and Melancon) with a specific idea in mind - that Bailey would close and Bard would be in the rotation.  Granted, there was never any guarantee that Bard would succeed in the rotation, but it almost seems like Valentine is ignoring the plan that the FO had in mind, and undoing their offseason work.  A team cannot have its manager undermining the work of the GM. I would have no problem seeing Bard back in the pen, but if he is indeed there at the start of the season, then he was never given a fair chance to succeed as a starter.  That, I have a problem with.  I'm sure Bard would not be happy about that either, especially if he ends up in the set up role, as there are no guarantees that he will succeed as a closer either.
    Posted by RedSoxKimmi
    Bard is not a starter....PERIOD......   What he is, is a solid back of the PEN guy who can pitch 3 or 4 times a week...... Why waste him for 5 or 6 innings every 5th day???    Bobby V. had that figured out before he even got to spring training !!!!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    The press loves this junk.

    And Bobby V. is not above stirring this up.

    And playing the victim. "See guys? See what's happening here?"

    Not looking forward to this sort of drama. Because it generally spills over into the clubhouse and then onto the field. Just ask Nomar.

    As I have said elsewhere, i have no expectations for this season, so I have no expectations to dash.

    Enjoy the games and the summer breezes.

    Oh, and the temperature in Liverpool is 18 degrees C. and 64 degrees F., with partly cloudy skies. It's a lovely day for football in Liverpool.

    Who needs baseball?

    Right?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Bobby V is my first choice for listening to... Cherrington seems like a nerd, and as GM should not be telling the manager how to field the best team
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from lowelll. Show lowelll's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    Here we go..........the media smells the meat! From the get go there seemed to be potential for conflict between Bobby V and the new GM for the numerous reasons indicated in Gaspar's article and elsewhere, previously. Conflict can, however be healthy if kept in check.  IF there's conflict brewing here, then let's leave well enough alone and let them work it out as professionals. I truly thought it would be a bit longer until we got an article like this.  Good for you, Chris.  A needless, unsurprising situation "exposed by you", if true, makes for resume fodder. A rift because of how to use Iglesias and Bard?  This is just one of many potential conflicts throught the season. Grow up, everyone.
    Posted by drpjn


    Perfect Response

    Perhaps Gaspar is an understudy of Robert Hohler. I think that Ben Cherrington should put a gag order on every player, manager, clubhouse boy, etc. and let the Globe sportswriters get so bored that they volunteer to cover college lacrosse instead of baseball.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Would it be far fetched to wonder if Gaspar had the outline of this story written before Christmas? The media wants this story to be true.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TBINFL. Show TBINFL's posts

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    Would it be far fetched to wonder if Gaspar had the outline of this story written before Christmas? The media wants this story to be true.
    Posted by BurritoT

    Or maybe, quite simply, it is true.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Then if it were true I would hope Bobby has the right of way on this, I don't want a corporate geek calling the shots.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from donrd4. Show donrd4's posts

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    Power struggle
    Posted by 2004Idiots


    Don't worry Bobby V is only a rental manager....Only a couple of years for his circus show..If he makes it that long ?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from lowelll. Show lowelll's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    The New York Post has a story today that Cashman is still shacking up with that ugly woman from upstate New York and that Cashman also plans to scale the wall of the Washington Monument next year. Down further on the page is that Teixiera's favorite ice cream is Maple Walnut.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    Then if it were true I would hope Bobby has the right of way on this, I don't want a corporate geek calling the shots.
    Posted by BurritoT


    I agree, and if Bobby V's methods work, who's to sat Ben might not be here too much longer (for donrd4).
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Too many people are trying to cover their azzes by saying things like "I don't know that Bobby is the right guy a year from now, but he is the right guy for today."  Even Tom Carron said something to the effect that Valentine was the right guy today but maybe not in July. July? How silly is that to say.


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    Too many people are trying to cover their azzes by saying things like "I don't know that Bobby is the right guy a year from now, but he is the right guy for today."  Even Tom Carron said something to the effect that Valentine was the right guy today but maybe not in July. July? How silly is that to say.
    Posted by BurritoT


    I think Bobby V was a great choice for this year. If we do poorly, I will admit I was wrong. I will say that I am not sure he will be "ther guy" for more than 2 years, but we can deal with that later,.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    Bobby knows what he is talking about....there is nothing that will make a team short circuit quicker then poor defense and blown leads by the bullpen. Agree .

    Disagree - nothing was more instrumental in our September collapse than the failures of the rotation.  Put out the five guys with the best chance to go seven strong.

     Boston will have no problem scoring runs so Inglesias bat has time to develop.  His defense will save more runs than Aviles can put on the scoreboard.  Let us not forget when Pedroia came up he was batting under .200 the first few months of the season and people thought he was not ready, but Francona believed in him, and the rest is history. It all depends on how the rest of the bottom of the lineups is doing. If Salty-Ross-Sweeney (until Crawford is ready), are doing the job, then having a .230 hitter at No. 9 might not be a problem. But can Iggy hit .230? This is the A.L. and you can't have a batter hitting worse than an N.L. pitcher in the No. 9 hole no matter how good his defense is or how good the rest of the offense. Aviles isn't exactly a butcher at SS. There's still no need to rush the kid. Another year in the minors might be the best thing for everyone in the long term. And the Pedroia example is a BAD comparison. Pedroia had proven in the minors he could hit. That is why Francona stuck with him. Iggy has yet to prove he can hit in the minors.

    Agree here - the Pedroia comparison is idiotic.  Iglesias hasn't proven he can hit, and Aviles hasn't proven he can't field.  If anybody has earned a spot on the roster this spring, it's McDonald, and starting Iglesias all but ensures he's DFAd or traded for little return.  You can make an argument that on the field Iglesias is a very, very slightly better option, but he has minor league options - when you factor in the roster moves, and the ramifications if he doesn't work out, it's really a no-brainer to start Iglesias at AAA.

    Bard had struggled this spring as a starter, while Aceves has flourished as a starter (a position he has been in before, and WANTS.  Melancon and Bailey have given no confidence, Bard would be a more valuable in the  back end of the bull pen.  Aceves is much more valuable as a starter than long relief man, a role Aaron Cook can fill in nicely. This might be the best scenario. Bard struggled in the minors as a starter. I would give him a bit more time. Move Aceves out of the bullpen for Cook might be best, but Aceves was so valuable last year, I'd hate to lose him. Aceves has hardly flourished as a starter. He has a 4.18 ERA in just nine career starts. Hardly a large sample, but also it's a stretch to say he has flourished. If the choice is Aceves as a mediocre starter or excelling in the bullpen like last year, I say keep him in the bullpen. If Bard doesn't work out -- and I fear he won't -- but him in the bullpen too and try to find another starter.

    Bard's in a tough position this Spring, because he wants to prove he belongs in the rotation, which means getting people out, but he also wants to work on his supplemental pitches, and do the things the coaching staff are asking of him.  All in all, he's only had the one bad rain-split outing.  He's had a lot of 1-2-3 innings.  I don't think he'll have any trouble as a starter.  I think moving him back to the bullpen without giving him a fair shot at the rotation would be a mistake - it would hurt his confidence and lead to resentment.

    A 4.18 ERA is terrific for a fifth starter, and is likely inflated when compared to his overall numbers.   It's not like he was a one inning guy, or a specialist - I think his bullpen numbers will be more representative of what he would do as a starter.  Also, he's versatile enough that he does not have to only pitch in his starts - if there is a scheduling reason why he should be skipped, he could come in in long relief in other games if necessary.

     Doubront will be a fine pitcher as a #5....but let us not forget the Matsuzaka will be back by June-July and they will have to find a spot for him somewhere.  Knowing our luck as BoSox fans he will have his best year, causing management to have to decided whether or not to give me a contract extention. I hope Doubront is fine as the No. 5. He has yet to prove he can consistently do the job in the majors. He's been hurt a lot. Had he came to camp in shape last year, he might have been the answer when DiceK went down. What the Wake bashers failed to admit last year is that Francona was forced to go to Wake because the supposedly young and hungry prospect was acting like a Fat Cat and not working hard enough. Hopefully, he's matured and is ready now. I hope DiceK is ready by midseason. That will be a nice addition.
    Posted by royf19


    I do have a lot of hope for Dice-K, from what I've been reading about his bullpen sessions.  He could be back as early as June.  Doubrount I have less faith in - I think he's basically a left-handed Kyle Weiland, which is not good enough for the Red Sox rotation.  He could be a very good back of the rotation starter on a smaller market club.  Maybe a deadline trade.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from attic-dan. Show attic-dan's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

       The nature of their jobs is going to cause some friction. Bobby V will see things in the short term, while Ben has to make decisions for the long haul. I'm sure all organizations have this give and take, but manage to keep the conflict in-house. The biggest exception being Ozzie and Williams of the white Sox who didn't always play nice.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from lowelll. Show lowelll's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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       The nature of their jobs is going to cause some friction. Bobby V will see things in the short term, while Ben has to make decisions for the long haul. I'm sure all organizations have this give and take, but manage to keep the conflict in-house. The biggest exception being Ozzie and Williams of the white Sox who didn't always play nice.
    Posted by attic-dan


    Right, keep it inhouse. Muzzle / gag everyone. Who needs silly soap opera stories like this one from Gaspar.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Agree with what some others have said about Iglesias.  Valentine has to know Iggy isn't ready to hit MLB pitching but Bobby just prefers defense to offense.  I don't think there is necassarily a right or wrong option, neither is ideal, it is just a matter of does either guy do enough or not enough with the bat to justify being the guy.

    Regarding Bard, if the plan has been to move him to the rotation, it seems pretty reactionary to abandon the plan in March.  As has been discussed in other threads, there are many examples of relief pitchers who have successfully transitioned to starter.  If Bard can make the switch, he ultimately has more value as a Starter.  Bard was horrible in his set up role for the last month+ of the season last year.
     
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    Bard is not a starter....PERIOD......   What he is, is a solid back of the PEN guy who can pitch 3 or 4 times a week...... Why waste him for 5 or 6 innings every 5th day???    Bobby V. had that figured out before he even got to spring training !!!!
    Posted by Bill-806


    He may not be a starter.  But then again he may be.

    He has not been given a fair shot so far to show anybody one way or the other.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    Then if it were true I would hope Bobby has the right of way on this, I don't want a corporate geek calling the shots.
    Posted by BurritoT


    Bobby should have the right to call the shots, within certain parameters. I agree that he needs to be given some autonomy.

    However, if ownership wants Cherington to be able to do his job well, then Cherington needs to know that his offseason moves and planning are not going to be undermined by a manager that thinks the world revolves around him.

    The manager answers to the GM, not the other way around.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    Too many people are trying to cover their azzes by saying things like "I don't know that Bobby is the right guy a year from now, but he is the right guy for today."  Posted by BurritoT


    I have thought that Bobby V was the wrong guy for this team since the first whispers of his name as a possible candidate.

    For the sake of my beloved team, I have no choice but to root for him, and I hope I am very wrong about him. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    Agree with what some others have said about Iglesias.  Valentine has to know Iggy isn't ready to hit MLB pitching but Bobby just prefers defense to offense.  I don't think there is necassarily a right or wrong option, neither is ideal, it is just a matter of does either guy do enough or not enough with the bat to justify being the guy. Regarding Bard, if the plan has been to move him to the rotation, it seems pretty reactionary to abandon the plan in March.  As has been discussed in other threads, there are many examples of relief pitchers who have successfully transitioned to starter.  If Bard can make the switch, he ultimately has more value as a Starter.  Bard was horrible in his set up role for the last month+ of the season last year.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards

    With Iglesias it's pretty cut and dry.  Some posters like Moon have made some very good arguments for why Iglesias is a slightly better option than Aviles at short, but if you go with Iglesias, there is no good plan B.  If Aviles doesn't work out, you can bring up Iglesias.  If Iglesias doesn't work out, presumably you have cut McDonald, and you have to scramble to find viable RH OF bat.  I don't think we have a guy like that in the system, so that means losing talent.  Even if Iglesias does work out, Aviles is a bit of a downgrade in McDonald's role.  BV can want Iglesias on the field, but he can't make an argument that it makes sense to the organization - and doing what's best for the organization is Cherington's job.


     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : With Iglesias it's pretty cut and dry.  Some posters like Moon have made some very good arguments for why Iglesias is a slightly better option than Aviles at short, but if you go with Iglesias, there is no good plan B.  If Aviles doesn't work out, you can bring up Iglesias.  If Iglesias doesn't work out, presumably you have cut McDonald, and you have to scramble to find viable RH OF bat.  I don't think we have a guy like that in the system, so that means losing talent.  Even if Iglesias does work out, Aviles is a bit of a downgrade in McDonald's role.  BV can want Iglesias on the field, but he can't make an argument that it makes sense to the organization - and doing what's best for the organization is Cherington's job.
    Posted by slomag
    Isn't Ross the "viable RH OF bat"?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : I think Bobby V was a great choice for this year. If we do poorly, I will admit I was wrong. I will say that I am not sure he will be "ther guy" for more than 2 years, but we can deal with that later,.
    Posted by moonslav59
    Moonman,  Im with you..... The nice thing about Bobby V. is that he allows us to roll the clock back to 1967 and Dick Williams.......   I can still hear D W to the writers, "talking to George Scott, wsa like talking to a bag of cement"  !!!!   Now in the twilight of our game, we get a chance to do it all over again !!!!!  Does it get better than this ????
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ubahero. Show ubahero's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Why doesn't Aceves get the same respect that the pro Bard people are talking about?
     
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    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : Moonman,  Im with you..... The nice thing about Bobby V. is that he allows us to roll the clock back to 1967 and Dick Williams.......   I can still hear D W to the writers, "talking to George Scott, wsa like talking to a bag of cement"  !!!!   Now in the twilight of our game, we get a chance to do it all over again !!!!!  Does it get better than this ????
    Posted by Bill-806


       I remember that quote well. Thank you for the trip down memory lane.
     
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