A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    Agree with what some others have said about Iglesias.  Valentine has to know Iggy isn't ready to hit MLB pitching but Bobby just prefers defense to offense.  I don't think there is necassarily a right or wrong option, neither is ideal, it is just a matter of does either guy do enough or not enough with the bat to justify being the guy. 

    It's clear what Bobby V likes and wants. I happen to agree with BV.

    Regarding Bard, if the plan has been to move him to the rotation, it seems pretty reactionary to abandon the plan in March.  As has been discussed in other threads, there are many examples of relief pitchers who have successfully transitioned to starter.  

    But, how many of the successful ones were one inning relievers before switching? Yes, there are some, but out of those, how many were extremely successful in that short role?

    If Bard can make the switch, he ultimately has more value as a Starter.  Bard was horrible in his set up role for the last month+ of the season last year.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards


    Being "horrible" for a month is not reason enough to outweigh the lengthy times he was successful.

    In the first half of 2009, Bard had 4 games where he went 2 innings. All the rest were 1 inning games or less.

    2009: 
    49 appearances
    4 horrible appearances (2+ ERs allowed)
    7 bad appearances (1 ER allowed)
    29 inherited runners/7 scored

    2010:
    73 appearances
    2 horrible appearances
    12 bad appearances
    46 Inherited runners/14 scored

    2011:
    80 appearances
    7 horrible (4 in Sept)
    7 bad
    34 IR/5 IR scored

    In 2011, Bard went from April 2nd to Sept 6th with an amazing streak of effectiveness as a set-up man. In those 70 games, he did this:
    3 horrible games
    33 IR/5 IS
    63.2 IP
    33 Hits
    14 BBs
    65 Ks
    11 ERs

    1.55 ERA
    0.738 WHIP

    Yes, his September of 2011 was bad, but it's not like he's had bad months all the time.

    I still think his best role is as set-up. His second best is probably as a closer. If he can be successful as a starter, the extra innings would be very beneficial, but to me, the gamble vs the payoff is not worth it. We lost Paps. To gamble on losing Bard is not worth it.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : Being "horrible" for a month is not reason enough to outweigh the lengthy times he was successful. In the first half of 2009, Bard had 4 games where he went 2 innings. All the rest were 1 inning games or less. 2009:  49 appearances 4 horrible appearances (2+ ERs allowed) 7 bad appearances (1 ER allowed) 29 inherited runners/7 scored 2010: 73 appearances 2 horrible appearances 12 bad appearances 46 Inherited runners/14 scored 2011: 80 appearances 7 horrible (4 in Sept) 7 bad 34 IR/5 IR scored In 2011, Bard went from April 2nd to Sept 6th with an amazing streak of effectiveness as a set-up man. In those 70 games, he did this: 3 horrible games 33 IR/5 IS 63.2 IP 33 Hits 14 BBs 65 Ks 11 ERs 1.55 ERA 0.738 WHIP Yes, his September of 2011 was bad, but it's not like he's had bad months all the time. I still think his best role is as set-up. His second best is probably as a closer. If he can be successful as a starter, the extra innings would be very beneficial, but to me, the gamble vs the payoff is not worth it. We lost Paps. To gamble on losing Bard is not worth it.
    Posted by moonslav59
    Another   B I N G O   on the road to my 10,000 posts and a new car from BDC !!!!!!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    slomag,

    Disagree - nothing was more instrumental in our September collapse than the failures of the rotation.  Put out the five guys with the best chance to go seven strong.

    We're both right here. Yeah, the failures of the rotation was instrumental in the September collapse, but on the other hand, had Bard not badly blown those two or three games from mid-August on (games where he came in with a multi-run lead) and had Papelbon blown just one save in September, the Sox would have been in the playoffs.

    Over the course of the season, a bullpen that continually blows lead does demoralize a team. However, there's no doubt that a decent rotation is hugely important. In September last year, it seemed like in nearly every game, the Sox were down three to five runs by the third or fourth inning. That demoralizes a team just as much as bullpen blowing leads.

    In fact, for all the talk about the Sox not playing very well fundamentally in September -- poor baserunning, bad hitting and fielding, mental mistakes, etc. -- and that being blamed on the "clubhouse culture," I believe that a lot of that had to do with guys pressing because of all the early big deficits.

    I do agree with putting the best five guys out there, but at some point, you have to make a judgement on whether a mediocre starter is better that a lights-out reliever. Without overstating it (because the Sox couldn't find them last year), you can always find a mediocre starter.

     Bard ... I don't think he'll have any trouble as a starter.  I think moving him back to the bullpen without giving him a fair shot at the rotation would be a mistake - it would hurt his confidence and lead to resentment.

    I'm not as confident. Bard struggled as a starter in the minors, so I'm very wary of his chances of being a decent starter. But I do agree that the Sox need to give him a fair shot, not because of confidence or resentment, but because Bard does have a live arm so there is a the potential large upside.

    And on Aceves, yes, a 4.18 ERA is good for a No. 5 starter, but it is a good discussion on whether or not he's more valuable there than in the versatile bullpen role he had last year. But if he is the No. 5 starter, that's what he'll be -- a starter. Except for early April, once the season gets going there really isn't a chance to skip a starter spot unless you're pushing back a starter to give him an extra-day's rest, in which case you need someone else for the spot start.

    As good as Aceves has pitched this spring (EDIT: Well, until today), I am inclined to put him in the rotation but I do really hate losing what he gave the Sox out of the pen. If Aaron Cook gets to full strength and can handle that role, then I'd breate easier.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Yaso#7. Show Yaso#7's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Personally, Bard has been set up as an "injury to come soon", with the way the Red Sox have handled this "starter expiriment".  See the Yankees misuse of Joba Chamberlain as a perfect example of this.

    With that said-- I would be on the phone with Kansas City immediately-- (Soria is out for the year) and they could use a closer/ 8th inning guy.  See if they would be willing to a Bard for Danny Duffy or for one of pitching prospects like Mike Montgomery.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    Personally, Bard has been set up as an "injury to come soon", with the way the Red Sox have handled this "starter expiriment".  See the Yankees misuse of Joba Chamberlain as a perfect example of this. .
    Posted by Yaso#7


    I disagree. The Sox have handled Bard much different. Chamberlain kept getting yanked around. The Sox gave Bard the entire offseason to prepare to be a starter and the spring. If he gets hurt, it has nothing to do with the experiment. It would simply be that pitchers get hurt.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jete02fan. Show jete02fan's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    something tells me this one is going to be taken waaaaaayyy to the left...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    We're both right here. Yeah, the failures of the rotation was instrumental in the September collapse, but on the other hand, had Bard not badly blown those two or three games from mid-August on (games where he came in with a multi-run lead) and had Papelbon blown just one save in September, the Sox would have been in the playoffs.

    The blame game could go on forever.

    I do think our starters had the roughest time, but Bard did have a pretty bad streak. It was actually not from mid August, but rather from Sept 1st on...

    He didn't let any inherited runners to score from July 3rd to September 1st, and had just one really bad outing in that strecth (Aug 1st). In the 11 appearnaces in September, he struggled in 7 of them:

    IP  H  ER  BB
    0.2  2   1   0  Lost 4-2
    1.2  0   0   0
    1.0  1   5   3  Lost 11-10
    0.1   2   1   0 Lost 6-5
    1.0   1   3   2 Lost 5-4
    1.0   0   0   1
    1.0   0   0   0
    1.1   2   2   0 Lost 7-5
    1.0   0   0   3 Won 7-4
    1.0   3   2   0 Won 8-7
    1.0   0   0   0
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : Being "horrible" for a month is not reason enough to outweigh the lengthy times he was successful. In the first half of 2009, Bard had 4 games where he went 2 innings. All the rest were 1 inning games or less. 2009:  49 appearances 4 horrible appearances (2+ ERs allowed) 7 bad appearances (1 ER allowed) 29 inherited runners/7 scored 2010: 73 appearances 2 horrible appearances 12 bad appearances 46 Inherited runners/14 scored 2011: 80 appearances 7 horrible (4 in Sept) 7 bad 34 IR/5 IR scored In 2011, Bard went from April 2nd to Sept 6th with an amazing streak of effectiveness as a set-up man. In those 70 games, he did this: 3 horrible games 33 IR/5 IS 63.2 IP 33 Hits 14 BBs 65 Ks 11 ERs 1.55 ERA 0.738 WHIP Yes, his September of 2011 was bad, but it's not like he's had bad months all the time. I still think his best role is as set-up. His second best is probably as a closer. If he can be successful as a starter, the extra innings would be very beneficial, but to me, the gamble vs the payoff is not worth it. We lost Paps. To gamble on losing Bard is not worth it.
    Posted by moonslav59


    Iglesias vs. Aviles is a personal opinion at this point, although, as Slomag pointed out, there are roster benefits to going with Aviles and having Iglesias as an option in AAA.

    Regarding Bard, yes 1 bad month is only 1 month compared to 3 years of mostly success my only point, is him dominating at the set up role is not a given.  I maintain that if the plan was to go with Bard as a starter it is foolish to abandon that plan so easily.  Anytime a guy can pitch 200 innings vs. 70 innings, the 200 is more valuable. 

    Derek Lowe went from pitching roughly an inning an outing out of the Bullpen to winning 20 games.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : Isn't Ross the "viable RH OF bat"?
    Posted by expitch


    Ross is your first choice, but if the bottom of your lineup features Crawford, Salty and Sweeney, you're going to miss DMac in a hurry.  Shoppach isn't the end of the world, but Punto is not likely to be an upgrade, despite the fact that he could hit from the right side.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

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    It was actually not from mid August, but rather from Sept 1st onPosted by moonslav59


    Yeah, I couldn't remember when he had that first big meltdown. I thought it might have still been in late August.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from expitch. Show expitch's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : Ross is your first choice, but if the bottom of your lineup features Crawford, Salty and Sweeney, you're going to miss DMac in a hurry.  Shoppach isn't the end of the world, but Punto is not likely to be an upgrade, despite the fact that he could hit from the right side.
    Posted by slomag
    More to the point is whether the Sox are going to carry 5 outfielders when Crawford returns. I doubt it. Ross will spell Sweeney against lefties, but it's unlikely Valentine the same day would sit Crawford in favor of McDonald. The Sox dearly want Crawford to start earning at least part of that contract. What's more, when at some point Iglesias takes over at shortstop ( if he doesn't start the season there ), Aviles can, in effect, be the 5th Ofer. Hot spring aside, McDonald looks like the odd man out. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    There was a GM vs Manager controversy before BV even got hired! Cherington was obviously overruled when BV got hired. It's Luchinno's team now and he doesn't want another strong GM. Hello! Is anyone home!

    BV will never be satisfied until he is in complete control though. What a gigantic power struggle we will be in for. It's a 3 way folks!

    BV wants to win period. Right now. It's a completely different agenda than Cherington, who needs to look out for the organization long term. 

    The real controversy shouldn't be about Iglesias. It should be about Lavarnway. Actually both but Lavarnway looks to be an even bigger issue but we are not hearing much about that.

    That play the other day when Iglesias was running to third to tag out a guy and threw the ball on a line directly behind him at full gate was pretty special. Everyone loves Iglesias's hands but the guy has an extremely accurate arm to me as well. He looked like Pedroia on that play.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    This team can easily absorb playing Lavarnway and Iglesias every day... and they just may provide the youth movement and attitude change the team needs. 


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Maybe that's part of what BV is thinking Burrito. Add Doubront into that mix also and some other new players ( maybe Cook? ). BV has looked at a lot of players, for a long time now in ST. We probably can expect inordinate change. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a trade or 2 also soon. BV wants to establish full control over this team right from the the start. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    Beckett really deserved being the opening day pitcher this year, according to 2011 performance levels IMO. I bet he is looked at as being part of the problem in some ways on this team. They went with Lester again.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    This team can easily absorb playing Lavarnway and Iglesias every day... and they just may provide the youth movement and attitude change the team needs. 
    Posted by BurritoT

    I agree 100%, but don't see it so much as "absorbing" than as thriving with these two kids.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    Maybe that's part of what BV is thinking Burrito. Add Doubront into that mix also and some other new players ( maybe Cook? ). BV has looked at a lot of players, for a long time now in ST. We probably can expect inordinate change. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a trade or 2 also soon. BV wants to establish full control over this team right from the the start. 
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom

    Wouldn't it be great if the team at least tried to go with these two until all*star break.  I think the team brass underestimates the fans patience. We were bread as underdogs, we do feel a bit ashamed for trying to buy championships, and as fans we ALWAYS love our home grown players.



     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat : I agree 100%, but don't see it so much as "absorbing" than as  thriving with these two kids.
    Posted by moonslav59

    I believe it to be a "thriving" opportunity to... the negative person in me just wanted to cover any objections by other posters that the team cannot afford to play these two. We can afford it.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    In Response to Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox right off the bat:
    Beckett really deserved being the opening day pitcher this year, according to 2011 performance levels IMO. I bet he is looked at as being part of the problem in some ways on this team. They went with Lester again.
    Posted by Boomerangsdotcom




    boomer...try to get your information RIGHT before you open your mouth and insert your foot dude. "THEY" didn't pick ANY pitcher over ANY other pitcher.



    http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20120320/SPORTS13/203200318/-1/NEWS
    "Red Sox manager Bobby Valentine named Lester as the Opening Day starter, with Beckett lining up in the rotation to take the mound in the home opener at Fenway Park."


    http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1061118633&srvc=sports&position=3
    During a 21⁄2-hour, face-to-face meeting on New Year’s Day at Beckett’s ranch in Texas, the senior member of the Red Sox rotation told his new manager that Jon Lester  deserved to pitch the season opener April 5 in Detroit. Beckett brought it up, and Valentine was relieved to hear him say it.


    *remarkable how EVERYONE has an opinion and most have an angle on why things are done. Get one thing straight, Bobby Valentine IS running this squad. There is no question. He WILL put the team on the field that he believes has the best chance of winning. He was hired to help Ben Cherrington get it right. Given the bullpens present in the AL East (Yankees, Blue Jays and Rays) Daniel Bard at anyplace other than the 8th inning is misplaced.

    Just ask Bobby Valentine.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: A wedge appears to be forming between Bobby Valentine and general manager Ben Cherington-Power struggle may weaken Sox ri...

    So, you are saying Beckett made the choice not BV?

    Or, it wasn't a choice or "pick" at all?

    I'm not bashing you; just trying to understand your point.
     
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