Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : It's a disgrace that these two greedy pukes still force ownership's hand for sympathy roster spots each year. It's more of a disgrace that the Red Sox continue to pander to them. Both of them would have, and should have, been out of MLB years ago, and it makes me sick to my stomach that we're even forced to have this conversation. They are nothing but greedy, 'me-first,' washed-up bums, who have burned massive amounts of whatever respect they earned from fans over the years. And they are also perfect examples of what's wrong with this organization, and pro-sports, in general. 
    Posted by greenapplesplatters[/QUOTE]

    Well said. I hope the organization finally forces their hand and makes the decision not to bring them back, but from what we've seen, this organization may not have the balls to do so.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    As the crowd called out to Pontius Pilate in Jerusalem over 2000 years ago over the fate of Christ and the two theives....

    "CRUCIFY THEM...CRUCIFY THEM....CRUCIFY THEM....."
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Let em both go.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Both have been great professionals for the city of Boston, but as they get older their skills deminish and I feel its time for a culture change for 2012.  Wake needs to retire and the team needs to have a more consistent 5th starter.  Id rather see Dubront or a veteran FA pickup who can eat innings take the job.  The team is stuck with Lackey for the foreseable future, so the guy who pitches after him needs to help the bullpen and atleast give them some quality starts along the way. 

    Tek has been a great mentor, but Lavarnway is ready to hit at the major league level and showed in the last series of the season he can handle the pressure and should be able to catch a couple games a week and hit against lefties.  Salty is better suited for a platoon role. Its a nice young tandem who if healthy can put up 30-35 HR and 100 RBI's per season. 

    Tek will always be beloved and remembered for being a true profession and team player.  The captian will never be forgotten and should one day end up in the RS HOF.

     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    We'll be trading both of them for Matt Kemp. cc: "lesspaul".


     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    It's a disgrace that these two greedy pukes still force ownership's hand for sympathy roster spots each year. It's more of a disgrace that the Red Sox continue to pander to them. Both of them would have, and should have, been out of MLB years ago, and it makes me sick to my stomach that we're even forced to have this conversation. They are nothing but greedy, 'me-first,' washed-up bums, who have burned massive amounts of whatever respect they earned from fans over the years. And they are also perfect examples of what's wrong with this organization

    100% on the money!

    Varitek and Timmy T-Ball couldn't be traded for a Wall Street protesting ward of the State and one of Vaitek's vamps.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    moon, I know we don't agree on Tek but your living in the past and can't let go.  Napoli was available not only through trade but also was claimed off waivers and Theo balked.  There is a reason why our catching position doesn't improve.

    #1 Instead of finding a replacement/back up for Tek in 08 we waited and still have yet to get it correct.

    #2 Tek can only teach Salty what he does best and that simply isn't enough.  Victor was more valuable, I wish he was younger when we let him go.

    Theo lacks good judgement in certain areas over loyalty.

    Believe it or not, craze, as much as I love a catcher that has a history of getting the most out of his staff, I proposed several trades to get Napoli, and even thought we should give the $2M more a year for Vmart as bad as their records are (were) in CERA-ralated areas.

    I know there are better options out there than Vtek. I really do. My whole point about keeping Vtek onboard is this:

    1) We do not have an unlimited palyer payroll budget. 
    2) I figured we have about $25-30M to spend next year, counting Papi, Paps, Drew, Scutty, Miller, Bedard, Wake, VTek OFF the BOOKS.
    3) Our top priority is pitching, maybe one very good starter and 2 relievers with or without bringing Paps back. Our next priority is RF, hopefully a RH'd good fielding young player, but that will be costly. Our 3rd priority is SS, followed by DH. That leaves catcher as at best our 5th priority. Theo may not spend an extra penny on the catching psotion next year and go with Salty and Lava. 
    4) I seriously doubt the Sox will spend more than $1-2M on the catching position, so how many options are out there at that cost? How many of those options already have a strong connection to our starters and a proven track record of getting the most out of almost all of our pitchers year after year after year? How many back-up catchers in MLB would rank about 16th in OPS among the 30 top catchers in MLB by PA?
    5) I think many posters here expect too much offense from the catching position. As bad as VTek looks at the plate, especially in the second half of the last few seasons, it's really not as bad as it appears... when looking at it in the context of catcher's offensive norms these days.
    6) It was not a fluke that the Sox went 42-20 when Vtek caught this year (22-10 in non-Beckett games). This trend has continued for each of the years that VTek had hit very poorly. It didn't matter how much better VMart hit than VTek, we still won way more as a percent, with VTek.
    7) Call it a security binky for Beckett. Call it voodoo. Call it whatever you want. Say that Beckett much get over it and move on. Sounds fine and dandy, but I really don't care what the reasons are for certain pitchers (not just Beckett... look at Bard's numbers too for one of many who do way better with VTek), I'm not ready to pull the plug and just pray Salty and Lava can do what Vtek has done over the past few years.
    8) CS% is important. It is frustrating to watch teams steal at will vs VTek and most of our catchers and pitchers, but it really isn't as important as other factors. If it was all about catcher offense and CS%, why aren't we losing more when Vtek catches? Look at each pitcher individually and see how they do with VTek vs Salty, how they did with VTek vs VMart, with VTek vs Kottaras, etc... The numbers are stunning. The numbers are highly consistent. The numbers are very predictable, with only a few exceptions each year.
    9) At let's say $1.5M for next year, we could have Lava at DH 4/5 games, Catcher 1/5, VTek 1/5 games or a little more (Beckett's personal caddy), andSalty 3 times out of 5 games. Give Vtek 40-50 games, not 64 like this year. He'd still be more than worth every penny.
    10) I just don't see many other cheap options out there. If you want to spend big on catcher and go with Iglesias at SS, I'll listen. Not many like that idea. It's a trade off. We can't upgrade every hole by a lot.

     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Does ADG work for the Globe?
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : Well said. I hope the organization finally forces their hand and makes the decision not to bring them back, but from what we've seen, this organization may not have the balls to do so.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    They traded Nomar.
    They let Pedro and Damon walk and others (JBay, VMart and Beltre recently).
    You guys seriously think Vtek and Wake have hung around because these two have some kind of hold on Theo?
    They've hung around because they have been relatively cheap options to add depth to a team that has lacked in young talent (or traded it away) in their two areas: staring pitching and catching.
    They've hung around because Theo has thought they were worth it. If there is one thing Theo is known for, it is assigning a value on his own free agents-to-be and not overpaying or budging if they appear ready to walk.

     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    whatever did become of that Pedro fellow?
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    He done retired.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    THANK YOU
    I for one will treasure all you two have done for the RS.
    However good luck in your future endeavours.

    BTW I'd have Tek become the Bullpen coach or let him manage Portland or Pawtucket. Keep him around he will be a very good manager in MLB IMHO some day.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I just read that piece, and answered it with this email:

    Hello MR. Abraham:
     
    Just read your piece on Wake/Tek:
    A few things you left out. The pitching staff did far better with Tek. It's been this way for over a decade. They played appx. .667 ball with him starting, with or w/o Beckett.
    They played .500 ball with Salty starting. Records are indicative of how each handles the staff and who they catch. Not their bats.
     
    I tried to tell you similar drawing a stark VMART/Tek comparison...when VMART caught the team's better arms, but Tek got more out of the pitchers whenever there was a credible frame of reference. You advocated for VMART's return. VMART had no market for his catching, despite his ability with the bat, and ended up taking DH money, despite his personal wishes to catch.
     
    This validates a catcher's relevance to a pitching staff. It's why Scioscia went with Mathis more often than Napoli behind the plate. Mathis can't hit.
     
    Tek, as a "back-up" started 40% of the games this year. Tell me, where was Tito's "reverence" for Tek in the 2009 Playoffs? He opted for VMART and Lowell at first. How'd that work out?
     
    Where was Tito's reverence for Tek in Sept. of 2010? Or the last week of the critical 2011?
    Maybe Tito hitting rookie Lavarnway 5th in the finale will give you an indication as to why Tito is broadcasting at this time.
     
    Wakefield had a 5.25 ERA in Sept. No other starter had a lower one.
    The reason he wasn't as effective as he'd like to be is because Salty can't catch his more volatile (lower) knuckler.



    He accused me of "harassing him"  about VMART last year, in an exchange of a couple of emails. (The content was not much different than this).
    Then he went on his 'sign VMART' escapade directly afterwards.

    It's no wonder little to no info that doesn't support his personal position ever reaches the readers.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : Tek and Salty showed early on that offense can help our team as much as game calling. 

    Really? Tek was 1 - 43 early on. Yet once Tito had him catch the majority of games in mid-April, the pitching staff suddenly went on a great run. Funny that.


     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    The irony of your post here harness is that the guy who actually did catch Wake the best was the guy who he defended and you villified--VMART. Let's crystal ball this with this 20-20 hindsight. Had the Sox signed VMART and traded Ortiz, VMART could have DHed pretty much the whole season while catching Wake's starts (25). Lavarnway might have come up to help Salty, but they still could have carried Tek as the 2nd catcher. In fact, it would have helped the righty lineup v. lefties (VMART) and given the Sox the luxury of actually playing 3 catchers--Salty catching 50 percent, Tek 40, and VMART 10.....my guess is Wake's numbers would have been better, certainly he would have actually saved some of the runs that scored that Mr. Salty gave away with his passed balls and then on the wild pitches--something everyone is using against Wake--Salty barely moved to exert any energy to catch the knuckler. He was as terrible as Wake is portrayed over the last 15 starts, and Tim still threw reasonably well for a guy who wasn't even supposed to be in the rotation at all.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    VMART ultimately makes a better DH than Ortiz, who was basically a one-sided DH...lefty v. righties.

     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]The irony of your post here harness is that the guy who actually did catch Wake the best was the guy who he defendedand you villified--VMART. Let's crystal ball this with this 20-20 hindsight. Had the Sox signed VMART and traded Ortiz, VMART could have DHed pretty much the whole season while catching Wake's starts (25). Lavarnway might have come up to help Salty, but they still could have carried Tek as the 2nd catcher. In fact, it would have helped the righty lineup v. lefties (VMART) and given the Sox the luxury of actually playing 3 catchers--Salty catching 50 percent, Tek 40, and VMART 10.....my guess is Wake's numbers would have been better, certainly he would have actually saved some of the runs that scored that Mr. Salty gave away with his passed balls and then on the wild pitches--something everyone is using against Wake--Salty barely moved to exert any energy to catch the knuckler. He was as terrible as Wake is portrayed over the last 15 starts, and Tim still threw reasonably well for a guy who wasn't even supposed to be in the rotation at all.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]


    Yes, that's true. But he defended VMART for his bat alone. He never once mentioned Wake in that discussion. I didn't think the FO was gonna bring back VMART to catch Wake, or Wake/Buch.
    Wake was starter insurance coming out of ST this year.

    I completely agree with you that VMART was deployed improperly. He should have hit against lefties as a DH, and he should have played first over Lowell when Youk went down. My position was to remove VMART as catcher with the bulk of the staff. Not remove him from the playing field.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    *wonders why some of these folks babble on as "expert" wanabe managers...
    Victor Martinez caught twenty-six (26) games, started at first base six (6) times and was DH for one hundred and twelve games! Let the manager (Jim Leyland) manage. His 2011 season was a pretty good one considering he was removed from the field. Why must you always insst on defending your managerial thoughts and insist on being right?

    Gentlemen,

    The UMass Debate team couldn't find better examples of those who enjoys themselves...
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    danny, you raise a good point, and as much as I downplayed VMart as a catcher for us in 2011, I was shocked at how little Detroit had to pay and how close it was to our final offer. I think it was just about $2M a year. My biggest issue with re-signing VMart was the 3rd and 4th years and no draft picks gained by keeping him. To me, Theo valued VMart about as much as Detroit (if you place monetary value on 2 comp picks). I think Theo prefered Papi for 1 year than VMart for 4 at about the same yearly cost value.

    I know VMart has had serious "catcher relevance" issues over his career, but you are right: he caught Wake very very well. Letting Papi walkd and signing VMart looks like it might have worked nicely on paper. 

    50% Salty catches Buch, Miller, Bedard, Lackey, and Weiland
    38% VTek catches Beckett & Lester (and whenever possible, Bard) 
    12% VMart catches Wake and some games in the NL parks.

    In the 12% of the games VMart Catches, we let Youk or AGon rest by playing DH. (VMart could also play some 1B to rest AGon.)
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : Yes, that's true. But he defended VMART for his bat alone. He never once mentioned Wake in that discussion. I didn't think the FO was gonna bring back VMART to catch Wake, or Wake/Buch. Wake was starter insurance coming out of ST this year. I completely agree with you that VMART was deployed improperly. He should have hit against lefties as a DH, and he should have played first over Lowell when Youk went down. My position was to remove VMART as catcher with the bulk of the staff. Not remove him from the playing field.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I even forgot about Buch's success with VMART too, good point. It's all woulda-coulda-shoulda now, but I really thought the Sox dismissed VMART, drooling over AGON, drooling over CC, and truly thinking Youks would simply glide seamlessly over to 3b. Maybe in theory it was a good idea, but so was the idea i just brought up. I also was thinking outside the box, something Theo doesn't seem to do well. He doesn't know what are strengths and what are weaknesses and what are needs v. what are wants...
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I think Theo was looking long-term. H preferred to have AGon for a long deal than Beltre and Vmart for 4-6 years. 

    Remember, Beltre only played in 124 games this year. As expected, he reverted back to his career OBP (about .330 from .365)

    There was a lot of merit to the idea of keeping Youk at 1B (safer) and going with Beltre at 3B, but 6 years?  Yikes!
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]danny, you raise a good point, and as much as I downplayed VMart as a catcher for us in 2011, I was shocked at how little Detroit had to pay and how close it was to our final offer. I think it was just about $2M a year. My biggest issue with re-signing VMart was the 3rd and 4th years and no draft picks gained by keeping him. To me, Theo valued VMart about as much as Detroit (if you place monetary value on 2 comp picks). I think Theo prefered Papi for 1 year than VMart for 4 at about the same yearly cost value. I know VMart has had serious "catcher relevance" issues over his career, but you are right: he caught Wake very very well. Letting Papi walkd and signing VMart looks like it might have worked nicely on paper.  50% Salty catches Buch, Miller, Bedard, Lackey, and Weiland 38% VTek catches Beckett & Lester (and whenever possible, Bard)  12% VMart catches Wake and some games in the NL parks. In the 12% of the games VMart Catches, we let Youk or AGon rest by playing DH. (VMart could also play some 1B to rest AGon.)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Moon, it's like the Sox limited themselves by first getting yet another lefty CC in LF and then once again relying on Ortiz, while a very good DH, one who does not give the Sox options at other positions. He basically drops out of the lineup to weaken the lineup in NL parks, he certainly now has "bursitis" issues, he can't run (but neither could VMART), and unlike VMART, he is a liability v. lefty pitching, especially late in games. He became the anti-Big Papi this year. VMART would have served a number of needs. The reality was that the Sox certainly could have spent less money for Beltre (than CC) and kept VMART, thus allowing Youks to stay at 1b, they never would have had to go after AGON (think about again want v. need with Theo--has lusted for AGON for so long that it was inevitable he was going to get his man...OUT OF WANT..NOT NEED. 

    Theo doesn't think catcher and SS defense is all that important, but even Lugo provided servicable defense in the postseason of 07, even though they were counting on him to be an offensive SS, which he sadly couldn't match the contract. Scutaro wasn't bad at SS, don't get me wrong, but certainly they again put small value at that spot (it's like again Theo doesn't know what he wants there. He had AGonzalez, he had Pokey Reese for a time, he had Renteria/Lugo when he did put value and again not for defense...but now? not a priority. Catcher? If it were so important for the Sox, which it is, and we all know it is, based on catcher variables and differences with the staff, then someone other than a low-priced, minor leaguer like Salty would have been brought in. Sure, Salty again supplied that offense that Theo so yearns for, but again we all know you can have a .190 hitting catcher and it doesn't really matter as long as the staff does well with that catcher...THE STAFF SUCKED UNDER SALTY'S CATCHING, UNDER .500 BALL FOR A STAFF THAT HAD LESTER,BECKETT,PAPELBON, BARD, ACEVES...

    Bringing back Varitek only solved the Beckett and spelling a another regular catcher issue, and bringing back VMART would have solved a number of issues.  Salty still could have been on the team, but as a part-time catcher in a 3-man rotation as you stated. VMART becomes a sub for Youks at 1b, a sub for the catchers, a sub for the DH. Oh well, not to be.

    I think one thing that VMART and Beltre proved as Sox was that they both could thrive here and did thrive here as hitters. Why was Theo so quick to throw them out? They had nothing to do wtih the Sox missing the 2010 playoffs. Theo created that situation by bridging the Sox so he can get AGON, dump VMART and dump the temporary Beltre as he always wanted to satisfy Youks wants of playing 3b. Well, he got his wish...now Youks is closer to becoming a DH, Beltre has turned into one of the AL's most important players, and VMART did help Detroit get to the postseason with what he does best-hit for average, get on base.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    No one said Beltre had to be signed for 6 years. I'm sure 4 would have been a good deal for him and he would have signed had the Sox shown the interest in him...they did not really offer him back. They showed Beltre's agent their hand when they lusted for AGON, without moving Youkilis. I think there was a great lack of interest in Beltre, a great lack of interest in VMART, who the Sox misdiagnosed as a possible 125-game catcher....again, little thought in the Sox process. They made up their minds before the 2010 season was even half over.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I think I would take Beltre's power bat, lower OBP, and his stellar defense at 3b...he saves more runs at 3b on defense...runs that were coming in while Youks played 3b basically not very well.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]danny, you raise a good point, and as much as I downplayed VMart as a catcher for us in 2011, I was shocked at how little Detroit had to pay and how close it was to our final offer. I think it was just about $2M a year. My biggest issue with re-signing VMart was the 3rd and 4th years and no draft picks gained by keeping him. To me, Theo valued VMart about as much as Detroit (if you place monetary value on 2 comp picks). I think Theo prefered Papi for 1 year than VMart for 4 at about the same yearly cost value. I know VMart has had serious "catcher relevance" issues over his career, but you are right: he caught Wake very very well. Letting Papi walkd and signing VMart looks like it might have worked nicely on paper.  50% Salty catches Buch, Miller, Bedard, Lackey, and Weiland 38% VTek catches Beckett & Lester (and whenever possible, Bard)  12% VMart catches Wake and some games in the NL parks.In the 12% of the games VMart Catches,we let Youk or AGon rest by playing DH. (VMart could also play some 1B to rest AGon.)
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Problem is, Tito wouldn't manage it that way. He showed how poorly he deployed VMART when he had the chance...when Youk went down and Papi couldn't hit southpaws.

    I guarantee you VMART would have been the primary catcher this year had he been signed. And he would have remained in that position until he could no longer cut it physically.
     
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