Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

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  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    It's not like the decisions are made in a vacuum.  If they dump Tek, whose the backup - Lavarnway?  Would Lavarnway be better off with more innings behind the plate in Pawtucket or fewer innings with Boston?

    Who do they get if they let Wake walk?  Wake isn't going to be effective in the rotation.  But as a spot starter/long reliever, he isn't bad. 

    If the Sox start the year with only 5 starters in the organization that are close to being capable of pitching in the Majors, then they will be in trouble again.

    The big issue for the organization is depth at starting pitching.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]It's not like the decisions are made in a vacuum.  If they dump Tek, whose the backup - Lavarnway?  Would Lavarnway be better off with more innings behind the plate in Pawtucket or fewer innings with Boston? Who do they get if they let Wake walk?  Wake isn't going to be effective in the rotation.  But as a spot starter/long reliever, he isn't bad.  If the Sox start the year with only 5 starters in the organization that are close to being capable of pitching in the Majors, then they will be in trouble again. The big issue for the organization is depth at starting pitching.
    Posted by DirtyWaterLover[/QUOTE]

    Tek and Salty showed early on that offense can help our team as much as game calling.  Then Tek went into his second half meltdown along with Salty.  I say give Lavarnway a chance, his offense may help hide what he needs to learn on the field.  I don't personally think Tek, or Salty are the answers.  Salty's defense is mediocre like Victor but at least Victor supplied offense.  Teks game calling hasn't got us anywhere lately and his bat just doesn't cut it in any other role than back up.  It comes down to Salty or Tek?  Salty is the better option but either way, we can't carry two mediocre bats anymore, its gone on too long.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Either of these guys neither impacted the team negatively or positively in 2011, not like Carl Crawford or Jacoby Ellsbury did.
    I would be fine keeping both of them, although Wake's value is much greater than Tek's.

    This is the least of the RS woes, there are obviosly some off-the-field issues that need to be resolved and hopefully with a new skipper, that will be the case.
    IMO, it would a mistake to keep Epstein as GM. I believe he is also part of the problem.

     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    if it's an easy baseball call, then it needs to be made. baseball is a business, it's objective is to win the WS. every position on the team should be a player who will contribute to that directive. 

    simply eating innings while not helping the team win is not a reason to keep a player.

    and I'm sure there is a better catcher out there who can help the team compete better then Tec can.

    It;s time to cut the cord, with them and ortiz too.

       
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    if it's an easy baseball call, then it needs to be made. baseball is a business, it's objective is to win the WS. every position on the team should be a player who will contribute to that directive. 

    simply eating innings while not helping the team win is not a reason to keep a player.

    and I'm sure there is a better catcher out there who can help the team compete better then Tec can.

    It;s time to cut the cord, with them and ortiz too.

       
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

      I don't understand this, to me there is no tough call, let them both go, maybe use the openings for an infusion of youth, any change should be an upgrade as Wake and Tek's numbers are only going to get worse, to  me this isn't open for debate.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]  I don't understand this, to me there is no tough call, let them both go, maybe use the openings for an infusion of youth, any change should be an upgrade as Wake and Tek's numbers are only going to get worse, to  me this isn't open for debate.
    Posted by attic-dan[/QUOTE]

    attic-dan, thank you because this so called "tough call" is a very easy one that management just can't deal with out of loyalty.  If a player does very little to help your cause let them go.  Wake can't be depended on as a replacement starter every five days and Tek hasn't been a true help throwing out runners or offensively since 2007.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Gut feelings:

    -Let Wakefield go.  He still had some utility last year but at his age the end is coming soon.  Why let it be an ugly one?

    -Varitek, not so sure.  The team continues to have a great record when he catches.  However his age also puts him close to the end.  If he does return it should be as a true backup, 20-30 games.

    The real scary number is that the Sox were 47-49 in Salty's starts last year. 
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]Gut feelings: -Let Wakefield go.  He still had some utility last year but at his age the end is coming soon.  Why let it be an ugly one? -Varitek, not so sure.  The team continues to have a great record when he catches.  However his age also puts him close to the end.  If he does return it should be as a true backup, 20-30 games. The real scary number is that the Sox were 47-49 in Salty's starts last year. 
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Thats why I'm not sure if Salty is our answer either Hfx. 
    The Tek thing is the result of being here for 15 years.  Pitchers across the league in most cases can pitch an effective game on their own if the talent is there with standard help from their catcher.  Both Texas and Detroit have proven this with their first year catchers this season..  We need to let Tek go and get out of this image he has created in Boston as being so great when he does so little in other areas.

    Until we do this I don't believe we will be a better team.  Look at Salty, hes not a gifted defensive catcher and Tek certainly can't teach him anything offensively so at least try a new direction.  Fans posting stats that compare a first year catcher like Victor in Boston, or inexperienced catchers like Lav and Salty to 15 years of Tek on the the same team is nonsense.  Of course Tek will look good, if we didn't have the injuries last season my bet is Victor would have helped our team in the PS more than anything Tek has done recently.

    Tek fans are afraid to admit what this team might accomplish with a catcher like Tek was in 04, or 07 when he was fading but still had something left offensively.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I think they both got to go.  What is the difference between having Weiland, Reddick and Lavarnway, and having Wakefield/Tek?  Not much different. Difference between these people are Wakefield/Tek's salaries and leaderships.

    I do not think their experience isnt a factor anymore for these two veterans cuz their stats are about the same as these minor leaguers!!

    If we all didnt cry over seeing Millar, Damon, Pedro, Lowe, Belhorn, Mueller, etc leaving the organzation, then we shouldnt cry over them!!

    Let these young kids come up and play and learn the game.  
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

      Easiest call of the Offseason, Let them both go. I agree with an earlier article, or post, that said bringing back Wake and the circus that it will surely become pursuing His "Indivdual" Acheivement to be the Franchise's winningest pitcher will be more harm then good. I totally agreed that it did seem to suck the life right out of the team last year with his pursuit of 200 !! Besides that, His being on the team for that last 4 0r 5 years, in my opinion, has hampered the Sox in ever finding a Suitable Catching Replacement for Tek (Although VM was pretty good)!! Tek's departure will open the door for Pedroia to be named captain, that should help him get past his losing of a cribbage buddy and may have the side benefit of saving something like 50 stolen bases next year. 
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Tim Wakefield's combined stats for the last two seasons show us that he has finally reached a point where the "innings eater" and "duarable" tag can no longer be used. He pitches poorly more often than not, is a poor choice to start games, is reluctant to pitch in middle relief where the only stat he can get is a "hold." Closer is out of the question and has been since the Aaron Boone homer in 2003. He wants to be the all-time wins leader in Sox history , a milestone that he would only achieve through longevity not quality of performance. Therefore he does not deserve this honor and it will only drag the team down to keep sending him out there for the remaining wins he needs for this accomplishment...

    ..put up a plaque honoring him at the entrance to the park and bid him farewell before we have "collapse two- the sequel" next season.

    Varitek is only suited to be a backup at this stage of a brilliant career. One of our true "dirtdogs" and a symbol of the great victories in 2004 and 2007....

    ...but it is soon to be 2012, 2007 is a fading memory. Accept a role as a backup for a team that has a catcher who can play 100 games a season....or find a job as a coach. Lavarnway should not be held back, Salty showed a big improvement defensively ( and would benefit for not having to chase stray knuckleballs around the backstop all season!)....put up a plaque for him also, I do not think Varitek's return would lead to another dismal season for Sox fans, but holding back the young catchers who are obviously ready to become vital parts of the team is counterproductive and stupid.

    Tough decisions? ...hardly. It is a tougher decision for our front office to decide if the team should wear the blue, red or white jerseys for opening day.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : Tek and Salty showed early on that offense can help our team as much as game calling.  Then Tek went into his second half meltdown along with Salty.  I say give Lavarnway a chance, his offense may help hide what he needs to learn on the field.  I don't personally think Tek, or Salty are the answers.  Salty's defense is mediocre like Victor but at least Victor supplied offense.  Teks game calling hasn't got us anywhere lately and his bat just doesn't cut it in any other role than back up.  It comes down to Salty or Tek?  Salty is the better option but either way, we can't carry two mediocre bats anymore, its gone on too long.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    Catching is not about hitting for most MLB teams. Besides, our catcher hitting was not "mediocre" at all:
    2nd in RBI with 100
    3rd in HRs with 29
    1oth in OPS at .732  (just .012 from 6th best)

    Try and trade for a 29 HR 100 RBI catcher and be prepared to give up a lot and create several new holes elsewhere.

    Catcher is not even close to our top priority, especially with Lavarnway in the wings.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Sadly, I think they both got to go.  Tek can't throw out anyone, against teams with good team speed every single/BB is a double.  His bat is no better, so now we are just down to game calling and "leadership", sorry but that just isn't enough.  Tek is probably the ultimate face of this team for the last decade and I hope someday they retire his #33 but it is no longer in the organizations best interest to keep him. 

    With Wake the explanation is much more simple, he can't get people out, he rarely gives the team a chance to win if they score less than 5 runs, teams run all over him, he just isn't a servicable starter. 

    I agree that starting pitching depth is a huge issue but carrying 2-3 #6 caliber starters is not starting pitching depth.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : Catching is not about hitting for most MLB teams. Besides, our catcher hitting was not "mediocre" at all: 2nd in RBI with 100 3rd in HRs with 29 1oth in OPS at .732  (just .012 from 6th best) Try and trade for a 29 HR 100 RBI catcher and be prepared to give up a lot and create several new holes elsewhere. Catcher is not even close to our top priority, especially with Lavarnway in the wings.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon, I know we don't agree on Tek but your living in the past and can't let go.  Napoli was available not only through trade but also was claimed off waivers and Theo balked.  There is a reason why our catching position doesn't improve.

    #1 Instead of finding a replacement/back up for Tek in 08 we waited and still have yet to get it correct.

    #2 Tek can only teach Salty what he does best and that simply isn't enough.  Victor was more valuable, I wish he was younger when we let him go.

    Theo lacks good judgement in certain areas over loyalty.
     
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    These two washed up players could hardly stand up straight in September. They most certanly cost the Red Sox a few games and a post season spot.

    Do not waste time or money on two old washed up players who pretend they are owed a perpetual roster spot. 

    Sign Hernandez as a FA and have Salty and Lavarnway battle it out as future catcher. Lavarnway starts in AAA, all else equal.

    Varitek is not in terrific shape as Peter has stated. He is a 40 year old has been who, if he is on the Hgh that MLBPA and NFLPA will not allow testing for, it isn't working!

    Very important to remove old loser entitlement faces on a team that had zero effective clubhouse leadership in 2011.  

    Ortiz is the only veteran FA profile who earned a MLB market contract offer. It is sad that most fans pretend that Varitek and Wastefield offer something as active roster members.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

                            Keep Wake. All he has to do is pitch. Keep Tek for now.Make a decision on him after ST 2012. I'd look at him as a DH possibility for next year. Switch hitter that can put on a glove if need be. A lot more options with Tek than with Ortiz other than the bat.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    eggplants, ....what???

    "all he has to do is pitch?"...well if it was that easy, we'd all be doing it for $3 million or whatever a season...it's not easy and apparently it's become too difficult for a 44 year old man, that's understandable. Time to go, he's holding back younger,stronger talent. Waste of roster space.

    You'd "look at" Varitek as a DH???...haven't you noticed he's never been in the league for his batting stats, and he's lost what little he had....the man cannot hit for high enough average to DH in an over-50 softball league...Ortiz batted over .300, "more options" but also "more outs...lots more outs." Varitek as DH in his later years is not as good an idea as the Yankees Posada as DH idea, at least Posada was a good hitter back in the day. Both players should call it a day. Neither is worth the price of admission at a free concert.


     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I like both of them a lot and think the Sox will be fine without them.  Tek still calls a good game, but can no longer throw out a baserunner.  Wake lost it sometime the season, I'm not sure when.  He is either very unhittable or very uncatchable or both.   Plus, if he returns, he is going to want to set that record, which is the wrong basis for keeping him. 
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

      I appreciate what each of them have meant to the Red Sox but it's time for both of them to retire as players.I think the Sox would be wise to offer Varitek a position as something like the bullpen coach though.
        Varitek threw out 14% of runners stealing while Salty threw out 31% of runners.The MLB average is 27%.Varitek is slowing down and hurting the team at this point.Lavarnway needs to be given a chance to back up Salty and gain experience in the Majors.But,I think Varitek would be a great mentor for him as a bullpen coach.
      Wakefield is older and just doesn't have the ability to field his position the way he used to,has control issues which results in past balls and wild pitches and is pretty easy to steal on.
       Some players have a hard time knowing when it's time to hang up the cleats and to get out of the game.A new manager and/or GM won't have the problem of trying to sooth the egos and can look at it from a more realistic point of view instead of keeping them out of loyalty.   

     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Keep Tek for now.Make a decision on him after ST 2012. I'd look at him as a DH possibility for next year. Switch hitter that can put on a glove if need be. A lot more options with Tek than with Ortiz other than the bat.

    Ortiz was a league leader in OPS in 2011, higher than the next Ted Williams, Ellsbury. Varitek hit about zero for the last month or two, and not much before that.

    You are no grounded reality if you would like to look at 40 year old Varitek as even a part-time DH, much less replace Ortiz.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Plus, if he returns, he is going to want to set that record, which is the wrong basis for keeping him.

    True, not to mention the fact that there is no way Timmy T-Ball will be able to set that record even if he is given a 2nd ceremonial record tour to try and do it.
     
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    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]By Peter Abraham, Globe Staff Here's a tough question for the general manager of the Red Sox, whoever that is by the end of the week: What do you do with Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield? Both have said they want to play next season and they want to play for the Red Sox. The are no indications that either player will make it easy on the team and announce their retirement. A decision will have to be made. Let's take a look at the pros and cons for each player. VARITEK Pros: As backup catchers go, he's about average at the plate. He had a .723 OPS in 68 games, which was better than what the Yankees got out of Francisco Cervelli (.719) in 43 games. He still calls a good game; he's Josh Beckett's security blanket and teammates swear by him. Cons: Varitek threw out only 10 of 83 base-stealers. He also turns 40 in April and while he is in tremendous shape, catchers that age are prone to breaking down. The next manager will not hold the same reverence for him that Terry Francona did. Assuming the Sox do not carry three catchers, he is blocking Ryan Lavanway's path. WAKEFIELD Pros: He threw 154.2 innings and there is value in that. The Red Sox, believe it or not, were 12-11 on the days he started. He has the rare ability to start a game at moment's notice and can throw 2-3 innings in relief during blowouts. Cons: Wakefield had a 5.12 ERA and a 1.36 WHIP, so those innings weren't particularly effective ones. He's 45 and clearly wore down in games, giving up an .870 OPS in innings 4-6 of his starts. His tortured pursuit of 200 victories became a drag on the team, something that his pursuit of the franchise career wins record could turn into. Wakefield has been with the Red Sox for 17 seasons and Varitek for 15. These are guys who are active in the community and have made a lot of friends in Boston. Letting them go means severing longstanding emotional bonds. From a baseball standpoint, it might seem like an easy decision. But the question to ask is whether the Sox can do better. Lavarnway would seem certain to produce more offensively, but is he ready for the challenge behind the plate? In Wakefield's case, can the Red Sox find a reliever capable of making 10-15 starts if needed? Only 45 pitchers in the American League threw more innings than Wakefield last season. Prediction: The Red Sox keep Wakefield, or at least invite him to spring training with an incentive-laden deal. But with a new manger coming in and an apparent need for better leadership in the clubhouse, Varitek may be out of a job. What's your take on this?  Your call on Jason Varitek and Tim Wakefield Keep Varitek; dump Wakefield Keep Wakefield; dump Varitek Keep them both Dump them both
    Posted by 2004Idiots[/QUOTE]



    It's a disgrace that these two greedy pukes still force ownership's hand for sympathy roster spots each year. It's more of a disgrace that the Red Sox continue to pander to them. Both of them would have, and should have, been out of MLB years ago, and it makes me sick to my stomach that we're even forced to have this conversation. They are nothing but greedy, 'me-first,' washed-up bums, who have burned massive amounts of whatever respect they earned from fans over the years. And they are also perfect examples of what's wrong with this organization, and pro-sports, in general. 


     

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