Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    maybe so, harness, but Salty was brought in and my contention is that you can carry 3 guys at catcher/DH and make it work.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I felt far more confident when Beltre/VMART were in the Sox lineup.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I agree. 3 catcher system can work if at least one can play other positions.
    But I don't think the FO would have gone there.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Another thread ruined by the pontificating purveyor stooges. As if Mo's circle jerk thread isn't enough.

    Varitek and Timmy T-Ball are offered FA contracts because most Red Sox don't protest to run them out of town. When it comes to his own FA players, Theo InEpstein is known for one thing. If most Red Sox fans protest and want them gone then Theo does not resign them.

    Varitek and Timmy T-Ball are a disgrace. To get rid of them, Red Sox fans must loudly protest to get rid of them

    Get rid of these 40 plus laughing stocks! 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : Moon, it's like the Sox limited themselves by first getting yet another lefty CC in LF and then once again relying on Ortiz, while a very good DH, one who does not give the Sox options at other positions. He basically drops out of the lineup to weaken the lineup in NL parks, he certainly now has "bursitis" issues, he can't run (but neither could VMART), and unlike VMART, he is a liability v. lefty pitching, especially late in games. He became the anti-Big Papi this year. VMART would have served a number of needs. The reality was that the Sox certainly could have spent less money for Beltre (than CC) and kept VMART, thus allowing Youks to stay at 1b, they never would have had to go after AGON (think about again want v. need with Theo--has lusted for AGON for so long that it was inevitable he was going to get his man...OUT OF WANT..NOT NEED.  Theo doesn't think catcher and SS defense is all that important, but even Lugo provided servicable defense in the postseason of 07, even though they were counting on him to be an offensive SS, which he sadly couldn't match the contract. Scutaro wasn't bad at SS, don't get me wrong, but certainly they again put small value at that spot (it's like again Theo doesn't know what he wants there. He had AGonzalez, he had Pokey Reese for a time, he had Renteria/Lugo when he did put value and again not for defense...but now? not a priority. Catcher? If it were so important for the Sox, which it is, and we all know it is, based on catcher variables and differences with the staff, then someone other than a low-priced, minor leaguer like Salty would have been brought in. Sure, Salty again supplied that offense that Theo so yearns for, but again we all know you can have a .190 hitting catcher and it doesn't really matter as long as the staff does well with that catcher...THE STAFF SUCKED UNDER SALTY'S CATCHING, UNDER .500 BALL FOR A STAFF THAT HAD LESTER,BECKETT,PAPELBON, BARD, ACEVES... Bringing back Varitek only solved the Beckett and spelling a another regular catcher issue, and bringing back VMART would have solved a number of issues.  Salty still could have been on the team, but as a part-time catcher in a 3-man rotation as you stated. VMART becomes a sub for Youks at 1b, a sub for the catchers, a sub for the DH. Oh well, not to be. I think one thing that VMART and Beltre proved as Sox was that they both could thrive here and did thrive here as hitters. Why was Theo so quick to throw them out? They had nothing to do wtih the Sox missing the 2010 playoffs. Theo created that situation by bridging the Sox so he can get AGON, dump VMART and dump the temporary Beltre as he always wanted to satisfy Youks wants of playing 3b. Well, he got his wish...now Youks is closer to becoming a DH, Beltre has turned into one of the AL's most important players, and VMART did help Detroit get to the postseason with what he does best-hit for average, get on base.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    danny, you're singing to the choir on how signing Crawford crippled us this year and will for 6 more years. 

    In hindisght, we could have had AGon, Beltre, VMart and Putz and Crain/Downs  (or no Putz and  Downs & Crain) instead of CC, Jenks and Wheeler (No Papi). If we wanted to use VMart mostly at DH, we could have traded Youk.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : Problem is, Tito wouldn't manage it that way. He showed how poorly he deployed VMART when he had the chance...when Youk went down and Papi couldn't hit southpaws. I guarantee you VMART would have been the primary catcher this year had he been signed. And he would have remained in that position until he could no longer cut it physically.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    I think if Theo signed VMart and let Papi walk, even Tito would have to realized playing VMart at DH most games makes the most sense. One never knows.

    I could see Tito do this:
    Beltre 3B 142 gms  (Lowrie 22 at 3B)
    Youk   1B 140 gms
    VMart 1B   22 gms/DH 100 gms/ C 30 gms
    Salty  C  95 gms
    VTek  C  37 gms

    62 games at DH to split between Lowrie (vs LHPs only) and whoever they got in OF instead of CC.

    Imagine this (NO CC/ No Papi)...
    Beltre 3B 152
    AGon  1B 152
    Youk   DH 132/3B 10/ 1B 10
    VMart  C 122/DH 30
    VTek    C    40

    Of course with Beltre and Youk getting hurt this year, VMart would play DH and 1B about 50-60 more games than listed here, forcing VTek to play more and Salty to be called up from AAA using up his last option year.


     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    moon, i never saw your initial reactions to the CC signing as I was off the board during that time, then someone brought out a thread during that period, and boy you were livid about the wrong feeling that signing had for the Sox. It was such a bad fit before, not after. That's why when devil's advocates like "notin" get their panties in a knot, they cry it's hindsight to say the CC signing was horrible. I say there were many people, including you and I, who cringed and knew there was a good possibility that he would fail miserably in Boston. He certainly passed that litmus test with flying colors, but so much so that he was woefully anemic in two areas that the Sox felt he would be strong in--stealing bases and playing strong defense in LF. As I've stated many times, all you have to do is play some videotape of a slew of butchered balls by CC while he was with Rays at Fenway. There were numerous instances where he showed he had no clue in Fenway.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I wasn't against the CC signing because I projected a bad season for him. I was against his signing because even if he put up his career norm numbers, he was not even close to being worth $20M/yr, he's a lefty, he stinks vs LHPs, and his best assets would be minimized in Fenway.

    As much as I was against VMart being here as our catcher in 2011, I'd have preferred Beltre and VMart to CC and Papi (and there'd be money left over for a Platoon RH'd OF'er & Downs/Crain type reliever). I said this last march, so it's not hindsight bashing. (I also actually think CC will have a much better year in 2012, but still will be grossly overpaid.)
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    That's another thing on CC....I said this on another thread right at the conclusion of the season. Even if CC had a good season next year, and maybe he actually played to his norms, I really think he has so much to make up for, fans are not going to easily forgive him. As someone also said, he's basicaly become the new Drew, except in Drew's case, JD actually helped the 07 team win the WS. Basically all is forgiven when you win, but not when you lose. And to be real, I gave Drew a lot of hell for his lack of production, but he was pretty stellar on defense and bottom line is he got on base one way (walk) or another (key hits in key postseason games, and others that helped the team win). CC is a guy who just won't cut it in Boston. That's my prediction, and I believe if he has another poor start next year, he will be clamouring for a buyout clause. He is not fit for Boston...never was, never should have been here. Angels? Yes, perfect fit for Scioscia.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    500+ at bats and less than 20 stolen bases, shameful. One of the fastest guys in the Majors they say on WEEI.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    It's funny, I wonder how the Angels would have done had they signed CC, and I wonder how the Sox would have done had then simply stood pat--signed Beltre, VMART and not been so enamoured by AGON and CC....I think it was roy who said that the pitching is what killed the team, and maybe he is ultimately right, but Beltre supplied a key defensive plus, and Salty was a key defensive blunder. The relievers pitched well basically most of the season until September, the SP had a bad start and a really, really bad finish with some really mediocre stuff in between. The Sox offense was there, but really the Sox offense wouldn't have been different with Beltre/VMARt replacing AGON/CC....And one last thing on this--it's fair to say that AGON is not too different than CC in one major aspect--can he handle the Sox media and Fenway faithful when they turn on him during slumps? It was tough on Yaz during his "lazy years" and tough on Rice at the very end, and very, very tough on Nomar at the end of his tour. AGON got a little bit of abuse, but really was absolved despite his putrid performance v. 3 key AL teams.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

      DIFFICULT CHOICES ???????  ARE YOU SERIOUS ??  SHOULD BE THE 1ST 2 MOVES AFTER CLEARING UP THEO (ONE WAY OR ANOTHER) AND BRINGING ON A NEW MANAGER.........  THEY SHOULD BEABLE TO CATCH ON WITH A BAR-ROOM SOFTBALL LEAGUE !!!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from cpjohn1. Show cpjohn1's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    I like both of these guys, but I think it's time for them to go.  They're too old and don't make much of a positive impact anymore.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from eggplants. Show eggplants's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

                               Zill....Maybe you're right. Lets dump them both. But how? I'd like to see them go gracefully. Maybe a Fenway sendoff. We need a theme here we just can't kick them to the curb and say goodby. Both these guys were pretty good back in the day.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    How did we "say goodbye" to Pedro and Damon?

    It's simple to let them go.

    It's not so simple to find solid replacements for $1-1.5M each.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Players can't leave gracefully who keep goading the management to kick them to the curb at senior citizen ages.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this? : I think if Theo signed VMart and let Papi walk, even Tito would have to realized playing VMart at DH most games makes the most sense. One never knows. I could see Tito do this: Beltre 3B 142 gms  (Lowrie 22 at 3B) Youk   1B 140 gms VMart 1B   22 gms/DH 100 gms/ C 30 gms Salty  C  95 gms VTek  C  37 gms 62 games at DH to split between Lowrie (vs LHPs only) and whoever they got in OF instead of CC. Imagine this (NO CC/ No Papi)... Beltre 3B 152 AGon  1B 152 Youk   DH 132/3B 10/ 1B 10 VMart  C 122/DH 30 VTek    C    40 Of course with Beltre and Youk getting hurt this year, VMart would play DH and 1B about 50-60 more games than listed here, forcing VTek to play more and Salty to be called up from AAA using up his last option year.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    No way was Theo gonna let Papi walk.
    I don't the FO will this year.

    It would have been VMART over CC. Then we have a FT inept catcher and ??? in LF.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]It's funny, I wonder how the Angels would have done had they signed CC, and I wonder how the Sox would have done had then simply stood pat--signed Beltre, VMART and not been so enamoured by AGON and CC....I think it was roy who said that the pitching is what killed the team, and maybe he is ultimately right, but Beltre supplied a key defensive plus, and Salty was a key defensive blunder. The relievers pitched well basically most of the season until September, the SP had a bad start and a really, really bad finish with some really mediocre stuff in between. The Sox offense was there, but really the Sox offense wouldn't have been different with Beltre/VMARt replacing AGON/CC....And one last thing on this--it's fair to say that AGON is not too different than CC in one major aspect--can he handle the Sox media and Fenway faithful when they turn on him during slumps? It was tough on Yaz during his "lazy years" and tough on Rice at the very end, and very, very tough on Nomar at the end of his tour. AGON got a little bit of abuse, but really was absolved despite his putrid performance v. 3 key AL teams.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]


    Here are the numbers:
    Beltre/VMART: 44 HR  208 RBI  .313 BA
    CC/AGONE:     38 HR  173 RBI  .301 BA

    Keep in mind, VMART hit .287 as a catcher, with 0 HR and 11 RBI  and a .663 OPS in 106 PA's. It's a whole different ballgame when a hitter has to be constantly involved in the pitching staff.

    And I believe Tito would have used VMART in the same capacity as he did in 2010.
    In addition, Tek would have caught less, as he did in 2010, which would have affected the pitching staff.

    Even if you go by the naked numbers, spread out over a season, there's no way the difference would have impacted Sept. when the pitching staff allowed 6 or more runs in 19 of 27 games.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Here are the numbers:
    Beltre/VMART: 44 HR  208 RBI  .313 BA
    CC/AGONE:     38 HR  173 RBI  .301 BA

    The biggest argument about Beltre and VMart were the latter years of their deals. Wait just 2 years and revisit these numbers.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    harness and moon, i agree with you both. Harness, I think you have a point about Tito-it goes with what I said was his predictability factor as  a manager. He was very much mechanical in his managerial decisions, which obviously had a great deal to do with staying on the page that Theo created.

    In Moneyball, there's a scene where the GM and manager are in complete disagreement on who should be playing. That never happened between Theo and Epstein in my estimation. That's why Grady really was let go. He often went off script and went against the reports created by Bill James and company. If you read Tito's book, there is a whole excerpt about why Theo immediately liked Tito because he gave Theo an assurance that they would be in concert on everything Red Sox. It was that relationship that kept Theo-Tito together and now likely both gone in the same offseason.

    I have to think that in Theo's mind, he really didn't want to go to the trouble of re-training a new manager, someone who he could regularly talk to. The Chisox relationship between GM and Ozzie got frazzled as Ozzie became more and more distant from Ken Williams. Hard to get that bond between GM and Manager. Even Scioscia now will deal with a new GM. Theo will have to deal with a new manager in Wrigley Town, but it's a new deal and new situation entirely. Fresh.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Timmy T-Ball and Jason XXX are not tough calls. No team in MLB will offer Timmy T-Ball a major league contract, and Jason will be lucky to get an offer for near league minimum as a 3rd string catcher until opening day when if both other catchers are healty then Jason will be released.

    There is no real MLB contract for these two old losers.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    In Response to Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?:
    [QUOTE]harness and moon, i agree with you both. Harness, I think you have a point about Tito-it goes with what I said was his predictability factor as  a manager. He was very much mechanical in his managerial decisions, which obviously had a great deal to do with staying on the page that Theo created. In Moneyball, there's a scene where the GM and manager are in complete disagreement on who should be playing. That never happened between Theo and Epstein in my estimation. That's why Grady really was let go. He often went off script and went against the reports created by Bill James and company. If you read Tito's book, there is a whole excerpt about why Theo immediately liked Tito because he gave Theo an assurance that they would be in concert on everything Red Sox. It was that relationship that kept Theo-Tito together and now likely both gone in the same offseason. I have to think that in Theo's mind, he really didn't want to go to the trouble of re-training a new manager, someone who he could regularly talk to. The Chisox relationship between GM and Ozzie got frazzled as Ozzie became more and more distant from Ken Williams. Hard to get that bond between GM and Manager. Even Scioscia now will deal with a new GM. Theo will have to deal with a new manager in Wrigley Town, but it's a new deal and new situation entirely. Fresh.
    Posted by dannycater[/QUOTE]

    If Theo stays, I have little doubt he will search for another mouth-piece.
    I don't think he's going to the Cubs. I doubt he walks away from 2011.

    I definitely agree with Moon in that the AGONE/CC numbers will swing our way over the long-run.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Crawbust has to improve, but he will always be an incompetent contract offer on value and fit. 

    Epstein is trying to get an extension at Red Sox expense. Ownership who ignores the record setting payroll value debacle of 0 playoff wins in 3 years and a ball and chain named Crawbust will suffer for many years to come.

    Red Sox cannot move forward with competency and confidence without the removal of InEpstein.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    Epstein is not trying to get an extension. He knows he won't until he proves this team is a ring contender. The Cubs are interested because of how Theo is seen in inner GM circles.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Abraham: Varitek and Wakefield: two tough calls-What's your take on this?

    The Sox should re-offer the GM job to Billy Beane, and this time make him an offer he can't refuse.

     

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