Accountability

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Javi60. Show Javi60's posts

    Accountability

    As a Sox follower since 1946, I have the right to ask, who is or are the responsible ones for this year nightmare?...I humbly propose a serious discussion of this shameful and painful issue that loyal Red Sox Nation goes not deserve!...


    it is time to put John, Tom, Larry, Ben and the lesser John on the stand!...

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Accountability

    Part of the issue is trying to account for randomness.  For example, if you are an excellent stockpicker, maybe even the best in the world, you will still have bad years.  You don't need to take accountability in that case.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Accountability

    I give them a pass for this year due to the ring last year. If they do not make the playoffs next year then they need to be fully accountable for their failure. They will need to be very aggressive this winter and jettison the parts that need to be off the team, such as Middlebrooks.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Javi60. Show Javi60's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Part of the issue is trying to account for randomness.  For example, if you are an excellent stockpicker, maybe even the best in the world, you will still have bad years.  You don't need to take accountability in that case.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If I buy when market is evebought, am I not accountable?...

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Quagmire3. Show Quagmire3's posts

    Re: Accountability

    I think Ben C is severly overrated. He did NOTHING in the offseason. Then again he is only a puppet, maybe Larry wouldn't let him do anything! Most egregious errors; basically giving the CF, SS, and 3B jobs to unproven rookies with nobody around to challenge or push or tutor them. No excuse (and please spare me the Grady seizmore nonsense).



    "Giggedy, Giggedy!"

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from andrewmitch. Show andrewmitch's posts

    Re: Accountability

    I want to know why Mujica and Buchholz are still on the team

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to Quagmire3's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I think Ben C is severly overrated. He did NOTHING in the offseason. Then again he is only a puppet, maybe Larry wouldn't let him do anything! Most egregious errors; basically giving the CF, SS, and 3B jobs to unproven rookies with nobody around to challenge or push or tutor them. No excuse (and please spare me the Grady seizmore nonsense).

     


    "Giggedy, Giggedy!"

    [/QUOTE]

    Lots of truth to that, then throw in Victorino not being able to get on the field and Nava's horrific slump, done. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to Javi60's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Part of the issue is trying to account for randomness.  For example, if you are an excellent stockpicker, maybe even the best in the world, you will still have bad years.  You don't need to take accountability in that case.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If I buy when market is evebought, am I not accountable?...

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    What is 'evebought'?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Accountability

     

    http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-04-24/john-henry-and-the-making-of-a-boston-red-sox-baseball-dynasty" rel="nofollow">http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-04-24/john-henry-and-the-making-of-a-boston-red-sox-baseball-dynasty

    Interesting article about john henry.  I read it some time ago so I don't remember everything in it but one thing stuck with me.  Henry earned his fortune by being a risk taker.  He wins some and loses some.  Some get rich conducting business like this some go bankrupt.  Henry got rich.

    He is a risk taker when it comes to the sox.  Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.

     

    Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.  

    Eleanor Roosevelt











     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I want to know why Mujica and Buchholz are still on the team

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    As I explained before, Mujica is on the team because his ERA is 2.77 over the past 2.5 months.

    Buchholz is on the team because he is one of the best pitchers in BB, when his head is straight.

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to BogieAt12oclock's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Part of the issue is trying to account for randomness.  For example, if you are an excellent stockpicker, maybe even the best in the world, you will still have bad years.  You don't need to take accountability in that case.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    You should definitely work for the SOX FO. They have a new position called Apologist. You're really good at it. No ones accountable? Maybe in your world.

    [/QUOTE]

    Or he's just smart. See there's this thing called variance. For example, ever watched or played poker? You can get all your money in with aces and still lose. It doesn't mean you did anything wrong. They won the World Series, and returned with mostly the same team. So what would you wish they had done? What contract was signed in the off season where you say "the sox should have done that." And do you think the minor changes they made to the roster account for the first to worst slide? If so maybe ellsbury is worth 35MM. I give the FO a pass, even though I don't like what they did at the deadline. A lot of the reason this happened is the sox hit like .025 with runners in scoring position the first third of the season. That's variance. They benefitted from it last season, and had to pay the bill this year. Get over it and stop your crusade

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to andrewmitch's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I want to know why Mujica and Buchholz are still on the team

    [/QUOTE]


    Going with another stock broker analogy: "don't see low". Both have more upside value than current trade value.

    FYI, Mujica has a 1.29 ERA and 0.857 WHIP in the second half of 2014, and he had very good 2013 numbers. His horrible start killed his season numbers, but have a look month by month:

            ERA/WHIP

    APR 10.00/2.00

    MAY  3.38/1.125

    JUNE 4.00/1.222

    JULY 3.48/1.355

    AUG  0.00/1.125

    Since June 4th, he has these numbers:

    IP 21

    H  22

    BB  1

    K   15

    ER  5

    ERA: 2.14

    WHIP 1.095

    We owe the guy for next year and have a bunch of pen openings. It makes no sense dumping him right now.

    I can see an argument being supported to give Owens or Wright a look this season over Buch, but we will be paying Buch $12M next year, even if we cut him. Maybe we could trade him and get someone to pay his way, but I'm willing to give him the rest of this season to try and earn the 5th slot next year. I'm not going to count on him being healthy next year, so I'd make sure we have some decent 6, 7 and 8 starters, but Buch has the talent to keep around until his contract expires. He only has a $245K buyout after 2015 on his $13M club option.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Accountability

    Or he's just smart. See there's this thing called variance. For example, ever watched or played poker? You can get all your money in with aces and still lose. It doesn't mean you did anything wrong. They won the World Series, and returned with mostly the same team.

    That's why I have Bogie on ignore.  It's not really worth it to try to explain numbers to him.  The variance thing I mentioned in my first reply, though I referred to it as randomness.  Sometimes you get lucky and your mistakes are obvious, as with Valentine.  Most times it's difficult to figure when you just got lucky or unlucky, which is why most rational people look at longer timelines.

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Accountability

    FYI, Mujica has a 1.29 ERA and 0.857 WHIP in the second half of 2014, and he had very good 2013 numbers. His horrible start killed his season numbers, but have a look month by month:


    ERA/WHIP


    APR 10.00/2.00


    MAY 3.38/1.125


    JUNE 4.00/1.222


    JULY 3.48/1.355


    AUG 0.00/1.125


    Nice analysis, but it it always amazes me when these things need to be explained to RS fans.  It's not like like I follow every stat for every player, but when someone pitches decently for four months, you'd think it would get noticed by their critics.


     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Accountability

         Too much spin here. When a World Series champion falls this far in one year, there has to be a reason, there has to be some accountability. Something was done wrong. Some mistakes were made. You can't just chalk it up to " randomness " or " variance " .   This is basically a game of skill, not chance. A 162 game schedule.  I am pretty sure that Sox management realizes that , even though some posters are still in denial.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from bostonfan191646. Show bostonfan191646's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Too much spin here. When a World Series champion falls this far in one year, there has to be a reason, there has to be some accountability. Something was done wrong. Some mistakes were made. You can't just chalk it up to " randomness " or " variance " .   This is basically a game of skill, not chance. A 162 game schedule.  I am pretty sure that Sox management realizes that , even though some posters are still in denial.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

    [/QUOTE]

    If the sox made major changes in the off season people would be screaming that they were dumb to not keep a championship team together. Time to settle down and bring up some home grown talent and let the team evolve. The sox are in a position to bring up ten or so players that could be impact guys. Unlike the miamis of the league, they'll be able to buy out chunks of free agent years early on, and keep them. Find out what you have, establish your core, and then augment through trades when you need to. This is fun to me. I'd rather be in the sox position than have a Yankee team fighting for a wildcard berth, devoid of minor league talent, and fully stocked with bloated long term deals. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Too much spin here. When a World Series champion falls this far in one year, there has to be a reason, there has to be some accountability. Something was done wrong. Some mistakes were made. You can't just chalk it up to " randomness " or " variance " .   This is basically a game of skill, not chance. A 162 game schedule.  I am pretty sure that Sox management realizes that , even though some posters are still in denial.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

    [/QUOTE]

    If the sox made major changes in the off season people would be screaming that they were dumb to not keep a championship team together. Time to settle down and bring up some home grown talent and let the team evolve. The sox are in a position to bring up ten or so players that could be impact guys. Unlike the miamis of the league, they'll be able to buy out chunks of free agent years early on, and keep them. Find out what you have, establish your core, and then augment through trades when you need to. This is fun to me. I'd rather be in the sox position than have a Yankee team fighting for a wildcard berth, devoid of minor league talent, and fully stocked with bloated long term deals. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]   Okay. For me, it is not fun being in last place, hopelessly out of contention in August.  But if you want to rationalize it to make yourself feel better, by all means go for it.  I still think that when a championship team falls apart the following year, mistakes were made. I think Ben C now realizes that, even though some on here still don't.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    FYI, Mujica has a 1.29 ERA and 0.857 WHIP in the second half of 2014, and he had very good 2013 numbers. His horrible start killed his season numbers, but have a look month by month:

     

    ERA/WHIP

     

    APR 10.00/2.00

     

    MAY 3.38/1.125

     

    JUNE 4.00/1.222

     

    JULY 3.48/1.355

     

    AUG 0.00/1.125

     

    Nice analysis, but it it always amazes me when these things need to be explained to RS fans.  It's not like like I follow every stat for every player, but when someone pitches decently for four months, you'd think it would get noticed by their critics.

     

    Exactly, and it's not like I have these stats burned into my brain. My gut told me that Mujica has done okay since his bad start. I was actually a bit surprised his numbers were better than I expected since early June.



     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Too much spin here. When a World Series champion falls this far in one year, there has to be a reason, there has to be some accountability. Something was done wrong. Some mistakes were made. You can't just chalk it up to " randomness " or " variance " .   This is basically a game of skill, not chance. A 162 game schedule.  I am pretty sure that Sox management realizes that , even though some posters are still in denial.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

    It's not "denial" with me, it's more of a difference in how I view life. I am not always seeking someone or something to blame for everything that goes wrong in any area of life, including sports. There are 30 teams in MLB, and only one team can win a championship each year. I refuse to look at this fact as 29 teams being total failures.

    I can't praise Ben for seeing the virtues in Napoli, Victorino and Uehara one year (2013), and then tear him apart for not foreseeing they'd do worse in 2014 and replacing them last winter. 

    I'm not saying nobody is at fault or to blame. An argument could be made that just about everyone is to blame, except for maybe Holt, Lackey and Lester. 

    I get that GMs are mostly graded in hindsight, fair or not. It's the nature of their business. You can take a simple nondescript move as our trade of Bowden for Marlon Byrd. Hard to call it good or bad. Then we released him the next winter and he went on to have 3 of his best 5 seasons of his career. Was Sox management genius in seeing something in Byrd and stealing him from the Cubs, or were they idiots for letting him go just before greatness struck at age 35. I guess it might depend on your perspective or prejudices.  

    It's hard to blame Ben for not signing Nelson Cruz or Scott Kazmir, but if you want to believe any good GM would be able to foresee their success, I guess that's your right. To me, no GM can foresee when players will or will not hit when it counts, but that is such an important part of winning or losing. No player in MLB history has consistently been clutch. It's not something you can trade for or sign and be sure it continues. Even Papi, one of the greatest clutch hitters of all time, had about a 3 year stretch of very few timely hits. Was that the GMs fault? Should we have dumped Papi after those 3 years? many posters wanted us to, but look what happened the last 3 years.

    On paper, losing Ellsbury, Salty and Drew should not have meant going from 1st to last in offense. I don't blame the FO for that much of a drop. I expected us to drop to 5th or 6th but not 30th. The players have to take most of the blame for that, but I even hesitate bashing our players for all having a bad long stretch at the same time. Baseball is often cyclical. Look at the Blue Jays. Many felt they might win it all in 2013. They played poorly and the GM took a lot of flack for wasting so much money. He was an idiot last year. Now, with basically the same team, the same GM looks like a genius. I choose to not assign harsh labels based on one season- good or bad.

    I'm not giving Ben a free pass. I think the team, in a way, became his with the Dodger trade, although some won't give him credit for that trade. He's won one ring and had a couple bad finishes. I think this winter will be his defining moment. There are countless choices and varying combinations of choices that can be made this winter. He's on the hot seat this winter. If his signings and trades do not work out this winter, you may see me being very critical, but for right now, I think he deserves some space and time to show what he can do.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to bostonfan191646's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Too much spin here. When a World Series champion falls this far in one year, there has to be a reason, there has to be some accountability. Something was done wrong. Some mistakes were made. You can't just chalk it up to " randomness " or " variance " .   This is basically a game of skill, not chance. A 162 game schedule.  I am pretty sure that Sox management realizes that , even though some posters are still in denial.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

    [/QUOTE]

    If the sox made major changes in the off season people would be screaming that they were dumb to not keep a championship team together. Time to settle down and bring up some home grown talent and let the team evolve. The sox are in a position to bring up ten or so players that could be impact guys. Unlike the miamis of the league, they'll be able to buy out chunks of free agent years early on, and keep them. Find out what you have, establish your core, and then augment through trades when you need to. This is fun to me. I'd rather be in the sox position than have a Yankee team fighting for a wildcard berth, devoid of minor league talent, and fully stocked with bloated long term deals. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]   Okay. For me, it is not fun being in last place, hopelessly out of contention in August.  But if you want to rationalize it to make yourself feel better, by all means go for it.  I still think that when a championship team falls apart the following year, mistakes were made. I think Ben C now realizes that, even though some on here still don't.

    [/QUOTE]


    I'm glad we didn't sign Ellsbury.

    I'm glad we didn't sign McCann.

    Beltran.

    Tanaka.

    Many others.

    Those were the names that posters wanted to replace Ellsbury.

    I was sad to see Salty go, and I felt the way we handled him during the WS sealed his fate, but letting him go was not that significant.

    Letting Drew go was a good idea- bring him back was not.

    The Mujica, Sizemore and Capuano signings did not work out, but none were expected to play a major role this year anyway.

    The struggles by nearly all our young positional players and the lack of timely hitting by our vets and youngsters was hard to project.

    Yes, I had hoped we made one major acquisition last winter, and it's easy to judge in hindsight, but looking at how most of the big name signings have done this year, the odds of us guessing right were small. Most big named free agents have not come close to earning their pay, and trying to blame Ben for not getting Kazmir is not fair.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Accountability

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Too much spin here. When a World Series champion falls this far in one year, there has to be a reason, there has to be some accountability. Something was done wrong. Some mistakes were made. You can't just chalk it up to " randomness " or " variance " .   This is basically a game of skill, not chance. A 162 game schedule.  I am pretty sure that Sox management realizes that , even though some posters are still in denial.

    Stabbed by Foulke.

    It's not "denial" with me, it's more of a difference in how I view life. I am not always seeking someone or something to blame for everything that goes wrong in any area of life, including sports. There are 30 teams in MLB, and only one team can win a championship each year. I refuse to look at this fact as 29 teams being total failures.

    I can't praise Ben for seeing the virtues in Napoli, Victorino and Uehara one year (2013), and then tear him apart for not foreseeing they'd do worse in 2014 and replacing them last winter. 

    I'm not saying nobody is at fault or to blame. An argument could be made that just about everyone is to blame, except for maybe Holt, Lackey and Lester. 

    I get that GMs are mostly graded in hindsight, fair or not. It's the nature of their business. You can take a simple nondescript move as our trade of Bowden for Marlon Byrd. Hard to call it good or bad. Then we released him the next winter and he went on to have 3 of his best 5 seasons of his career. Was Sox management genius in seeing something in Byrd and stealing him from the Cubs, or were they idiots for letting him go just before greatness struck at age 35. I guess it might depend on your perspective or prejudices.  

    It's hard to blame Ben for not signing Nelson Cruz or Scott Kazmir, but if you want to believe any good GM would be able to foresee their success, I guess that's your right. To me, no GM can foresee when players will or will not hit when it counts, but that is such an important part of winning or losing. No player in MLB history has consistently been clutch. It's not something you can trade for or sign and be sure it continues. Even Papi, one of the greatest clutch hitters of all time, had about a 3 year stretch of very few timely hits. Was that the GMs fault? Should we have dumped Papi after those 3 years? many posters wanted us to, but look what happened the last 3 years.

    On paper, losing Ellsbury, Salty and Drew should not have meant going from 1st to last in offense. I don't blame the FO for that much of a drop. I expected us to drop to 5th or 6th but not 30th. The players have to take most of the blame for that, but I even hesitate bashing our players for all having a bad long stretch at the same time. Baseball is often cyclical. Look at the Blue Jays. Many felt they might win it all in 2013. They played poorly and the GM took a lot of flack for wasting so much money. He was an idiot last year. Now, with basically the same team, the same GM looks like a genius. I choose to not assign harsh labels based on one season- good or bad.

    I'm not giving Ben a free pass. I think the team, in a way, became his with the Dodger trade, although some won't give him credit for that trade. He's won one ring and had a couple bad finishes. I think this winter will be his defining moment. There are countless choices and varying combinations of choices that can be made this winter. He's on the hot seat this winter. If his signings and trades do not work out this winter, you may see me being very critical, but for right now, I think he deserves some space and time to show what he can do.

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]  Okay, we know how hard it is to repeat. Still and all, this was a very drastic drop off in one year. Ben has himself admitted that mistakes were made. And I think that was certainly true. I don't know why some cannot see it. I don't want to see him fired. I just want to see him get things back on the right track. I think the deadline deals were a very good start. This off season will be very important. You can't put all your stock in prospects. They often will disappoint, as we have seen.

     
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