After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from tbs2007. Show tbs2007's posts

    After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Aceves was pitching great. Pull him so the bullpen can blow it.

    I've felt like this since the Pedro Martinez days. They pull him with the lead, the bullpen cost him like 5+ wins.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from carnie. Show carnie's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    I've never liked pitch counts. Then again I'm an old guy and I can remember El Tiante pretty routinely going over 200 pitches in a game.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from piersall. Show piersall's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.





    I've seen some phenomenal high school pitchers in my lifetime who, had their coaches been "a fan of pitch counts"  most certainly could have had promising careers in baseball, but ended up with sore arms. (I was on one such team)  I suspect that the arm management thing still holds true a few years down the line.(in the pros)  You can't compare the whole world of pitchers to Ellis Kinder.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    I think risking a kid's long term future for a ballgame in May is the definitely the right thing to do.  It's not like they had just won 7 or 8 in a row or anything and were the hottest team in baseball.  And it's not everyone didn't know the relievers were going to cr@p the bed when they got in the game.

    I remember when the starter would pitch both ends of a double header. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Pitch counts relieve a manager of actually having to know anything about how effective a pitcher is or isn't. It allows poor managers to exist. They simply sit and watch their seed shells hit their target on the floor. When a coach tells them that the pitcher has reached the designated pitch count, they act like they know what's happening and boldly go to the mound and replace the exhausted pitcher. The fact that the pitcher has retired 16 batters in a row and struck out the side in the previous inning, makes no difference. Pitch counts shouldn't be a part of major league baseball.
     "He needs to be stretched out" another joke. Why not have all pitchers "stretched out" from the beginning? Couldn't a "stretched out" pitcher go all out in a save situation and also be able to go for a prolonged period if needed? Wouldn't it be a luxury to know that Paps could throw 3-4 or more innings if needed, and still go all out to preserve a 2-3 run lead in the 9th??
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    I understand and don't necessarily disagree, but remember: EVERYBODY uses pitch counts these days, not just Francona. So if everyone is placing great emphasis on them ...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]I understand and don't necessarily disagree, but remember: EVERYBODY uses pitch counts these days, not just Francona. So if everyone is placing great emphasis on them ...
    Posted by LloydDobler[/QUOTE]
    Lloyd, thanks for the civil response. "So if everyone is placing great emphasis on them..."
    I understand where you're coming from, but I remember my Dad saying to me, "I don't care what the other kids are allowed to do, you're not doing it!!!! How refreshing would it be if a manager decided, on his own, when a pitcher is tiring or tired? Any person can read a book that tells him to remove a pitcher at 100 pitches, does that make him a "manager", or a robot? There has to be an ability to realize how effective a pitcher is, by actually assessing his performance that particular day. I don't believe Francona has that ability.
     Wouldn't you agree that some days are better than others in almost every physical thing we do?
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.




    Any person can read a book that tells him to remove a pitcher at 100 pitches, does that make him a "manager", or a robot? There has to be an ability to realize how effective a pitcher is, by actually assessing his performance that particular day. I don't believe Francona has that ability.
    Wouldn't you agree that some days are better than others in almost every physical thing we do?   



    BOSOX1941 

    I'm sure  your point has some  merit

    but I think your timing is off

    didn't tito just let clay b  blow past his career high mark

    and get out of a bases loaded jam
                     
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Exhibit A on why managers are concerned about overusing pitchers.

    Joe Coleman:
    From 1971-74, ages 24 to 27, Coleman went 76-50 with a 3.45 ERA. He averaged 280 IP, and 7 IP per start (40 starts per year, 12 CG per year average). That ERA includes a 4.32 ERA in 1974 when he went 14-12 with a 4.32 ERA in 285 IP. Those years include 20-9, 3.15 ERA and 19-14, 2.80 ERA and 23-15, 3.53 ERA.

    In 1975 (age 28), he went 10-18 with a 5.55 ERA in 201 IP.
    In 1976 (age 29), he went 4-13 with a 4.45 ERA in 145.2 IP.

    He had two decent seasons in 1977 and 1978 (4-4, 2.96 ERA; 5-0, 3.81 ERA) as a spot starter/reliever in '77 and a reliever in 1978.

    His last year was 1979 when he went 0-0 with a 6.10 ERA in 20 IP at age 32.

    Now I don't know the reason for his rapid decline, but overuse and high pitch counts certainly is something to be considered.

    There are many pitchers like that throughout history. Guys who had incredible high IP for a couple of seasons in their 20s and had two or three great years only to suddenly flame out. Now I don't know how many of them were injury-related to overuse, but you have to think many of them were.

    This isn't scientific. Maybe managers/pitching coaches/organizations (with the money being paid, it's often an organizational philosophy) go too much on the other extreme. But it's understandable that it is something to be concerned about. Actually, having a plan on how you train pitchers, use them and stretch them out is better managing than flying by the seat of your pants from night to night.

    A pitcher might be cruising with a high pitch count and not tiring. But it's hardly managing to wait until the guy's arm falls off to decide that yeah, he's tiring, he's had enough. With pitching at a premium, managers and pitching coaches shouldn't be ripped for being a bit overcautious.

    The problem isn't that particular outing. A pitcher might be strong, have good mechanics enough to throw 150 pitches-plus in a game. But do you want that? How is he going to be the next start?

    That's the difference between the critics and real managers. The critics think what's most important is managing that one game, regardless of anything else. Real managers have to manage the season as well as the game.

    I personally fall into the camp that perhaps starting pitchers could be stretched out a bit longer than they often are, but that doesn't mean I'm right. I grew up in the days of four-man pitching staff, a lot of complete games and relievers who would pitching more than one inning. But I understand the game has changed. Pitchers' arms are the hardest thing to manage. You could do everything right and he still gets hurt.


     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole. : Lloyd, thanks for the civil response. "So if everyone is placing great emphasis on them..." I understand where you're coming from, but I remember my Dad saying to me, "I don't care what the other kids are allowed to do, you're not doing it!!!! How refreshing would it be if a manager decided, on his own, when a pitcher is tiring or tired? Any person can read a book that tells him to remove a pitcher at 100 pitches, does that make him a "manager", or a robot? There has to be an ability to realize how effective a pitcher is, by actually assessing his performance that particular day. I don't believe Francona has that ability.  Wouldn't you agree that some days are better than others in almost every physical thing we do?
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, my dad said the same thing to me. Come to think of it, I say it to my kids now! I guess it's in the Dad's Handbook, huh?
    My point by that was that since every manager goes by it, there must be a good reason for it. Look at Beckett ... Tito left him in for 125 against the Angels and then had to come out early his next start after only 92 because his arm was tired.
    As for the OP's comment on Acevez, he was at 86 pitches after five innings. That's more than he had thrown in his last four appearances combined. Pitchers get used to a certain work load ... you just can't expect to change it overnight.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Said it a million times - Tito would pull even Roy Halliday after 6 with  1-0 lead against the Cardinals in Game 6 of an WSC series.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from SpacemanEephus. Show SpacemanEephus's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Aceves wasn't even about arbitrary pitch counts.  Dude hadn't started a game in years.  Even if pitch counts weren't the norm of the day, any manager who understands the game of keeping precious arms healthy would not want tostretch the guy out too much in his first start in years.  Seriously my friends.  Francona has made mistake with pitching changes/non-changes.  As most managers do.  But, please, don't let your desire to jump on the bashing bandwagon get in the way of just some common sense about baseball.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole. : Lloyd, thanks for the civil response. "So if everyone is placing great emphasis on them..." I understand where you're coming from, but I remember my Dad saying to me, "I don't care what the other kids are allowed to do, you're not doing it!!!! How refreshing would it be if a manager decided, on his own, when a pitcher is tiring or tired? Any person can read a book that tells him to remove a pitcher at 100 pitches, does that make him a "manager", or a robot? There has to be an ability to realize how effective a pitcher is, by actually assessing his performance that particular day. I don't believe Francona has that ability.  Wouldn't you agree that some days are better than others in almost every physical thing we do?
    Posted by BOSOX1941[/QUOTE]

    The teams now have a bevy of medical experts, conditioning specialists, medical facilities, and training regiments that weren't around when Bill Mombouquette demanded to pitch nine innings each time out. This is 2011 and not 1965.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from NUSoxFan. Show NUSoxFan's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]Said it a million times - Tito would pull even Roy Halliday after 6 with  1-0 lead against the Cardinals in Game 6 of an WSC series.
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]

    October 3rd 2007, Josh Beckett completes a shutout against the Angels to take game one of the ALDS.

    Best game I ever been to.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Was that the same game Lackey got beat again when his team needed him most?  

    "Los Angeles starter John Lackey gave up nine hits and four runs over six innings," Wiki
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Four runs over six innings is one run over a "quality start".

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    As if Tito had a say whether pitch counts were used or not.  Do people really believe Tito does anything that Theo disagrees with?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]Aceves was pitching great. Pull him so the bullpen can blow it. I've felt like this since the Pedro Martinez days. They pull him with the lead, the bullpen cost him like 5+ wins.
    Posted by tbs2007[/QUOTE]You mean like Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS?
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from NUSoxFan. Show NUSoxFan's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]Was that the same game Lackey got beat again when his team needed him most?   "Los Angeles starter  John Lackey  gave up nine hits and four runs over six innings," Wiki
    Posted by BurritoT[/QUOTE]
    Attacking Tito fails so you move on to Lackey? Isn't that pretty much the definition of trolling a forum? lol.
     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]4 days rest between starts, I dont know, but OK, we are now in the Pitch Count era, you better have a good Bullpen for this to work. Starters go 7 innings, 120 pitches, score 3-1, now Bullpen comes in and gives up 3 runs and lose game. To me a Manager and a Pitching Coach, have to have the experience, to see when a Pitcher is tiring, or if he can be stretched out. Catchers between innings also tell this to the Manager. Just to go by numbers, to me tells me that the Coaching staff does not have a feel for the game.
    Posted by bobbysu[/QUOTE]Starting pitchers are paid millions of dollars, dollars that are guaranteed. The pitch count grew in popularity because there is a ton of evidence that the more repetitive stress from pitching you out the human body through the more likely it will fail.

    While fans totally believe that this current pitchers era is all about PEDs being cleansed from the game it is only an element. After all as a percentage of population pitchers used as much as hitters. So what has changed aside from aggresive steroid testing?

    The K Zone has been expanded according to many who watch the game. But the other factor is a more strict adherence to pitch counts at every level of baseball from little league to MLB.

    And the result is more pitchers are arriving in MLB and staying longer because of pitch count.

    If one were to take a look at how Dice K was managed in Japan, it is no surprise his elbow is in such dire condition that it may require reconstructive surgery.

    But to some extent you do see managers operate outside of strict pitch counts with matured pitchers. Lester, Beckett and Buch have all been taken well past the 100 pitch count guideline this year.

    With the money involved and the difficulty in finding quality pitching, pitch counts are deployed to ensure longevity much more than they are a part of single in-game tactics.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    The problem is starting pitchers nowadays are not conditioned to throw like they did in 1971.

    The great pitchers of the late 60's , early 70's all FREQUENTLY threw beyond the 100 pitch plateau with NO ADVERSE EFFECTS.

    Bob Gibson, Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mike Cueller, Steve Carlton, Catfish Hunter, Sudden Sam McDowell, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry,Bert Blyleven, Fergie Jenkins,Juan Marichal, Mickey Lolich, Don Drysdale, Dave McNally , Luis Tiant, Wilbur Wood, etc. these are among the most successful pitchers of that era. They were not held to pitch counts, they stayed and pitched until they couldn't get guys out anymore. Very few of these , if any, ever were forced to end their careers early because of arm trouble.

    The use of pitch counts is merely a way to justify the big salaries being paid to relief pitchers. And to make sure these high paid "specialists" don't sit too long in the bullpen. It has nothing at all to do with "protecting" players health.

    If they were really concerned with health of athletes they would have stopped the drug use back in 1985 , before it reached the stage where the majority of players were using PED's and destroying themselves. They would have made helmets mandatory years before it was made mandatory, and the would stop runners from sliding outside the baseline to "take out" the fielder and break up the doubleplay.

    In short. it's more about money than it is about player's health issues.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    I'm a pitch count guy, and I figure 95% of all managers--and college and high school baseball coaches--are too. 

    You must count the pitches, no question.  But there is room for letting a pitcher go longer or shorter based on what you are seeing. 

    Last night Wakefield was on his second start and was probably ready to go 80-90 pitches.  And he was certainly effective with no runs and four hits through six innings.  But those two doubles in the 7th, even with the two outs, were a clear harbinger that the knuckler wasn't working any more.  So out he came.  Great move.

    Aceves was supposed to throw 75-80 pitches, but threw 84, so six innings--more than I expected from him--was right for him given that he came from the bullpen and was not "stretched out."  No way Aceves goes 8 innings, which means Albers was still going to get to the mound in the 8th--if Aceves had foolishly gone 7 innings--and probably get plastered while walking other guys.  And Albers was the right guy, who going in had an era under 1.50. 
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Your-Echo. Show Your-Echo's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Did Zillagod study all of the pitchers who came up and performed during that era? Did those who ruined their arms disappear into oblivion and never become household names like those which he listed? I would like to see an indepth analysis done on this. Katz and Zillagod seem to have divergent opinions on the subject.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Well Zilla isn't wrong that money and health converge when discussing this topic. If the contracts weren't guarenteed and the money wasn't so big, would the teams view it differently, perhaps.

    And while that wouldn't explain the strick IP limits that teams set for their pitchers in development, how much a FA pitcher costs versus a young pitcher in his arbitration years would tie money back to this concern again.

    But it doesn't change the fact that investment is being protected by guarding the pitchers health more closely.

    The good old days argument is a favorite and while Zilla didn't mention all the Don Gullet's and Sandy Koufax's of the good old days he did mention Luis Tiant.

    Tiant actually is a good example of what can happen with too many innings and a testimony to Luis' human spirit and baseball IQ.

    Tiant as a young man was an absolute flame thrower with the Indians until one day he threw one too many fastballs and his shoulder imploded.

    It was Luis creativity and spirit that allowed him to reinvent himself, adopting a motion where he hestitated at the top with his back to the hitter to hide a loss in velocity and movement. In 1969 he fractured his scapula while throwing a fastball.

    While most thought his career was toast, Luis took his new motion and exaggerated it further by using two different arm slots coming out of that motion, making it very hard for hitters to get a read on the pitch at release.

    By late 1975 after a 4 year run with this approach Luis arm was giving him lots of trouble yet again. He had to shut down in late 75 but returned and was the pitcher we remember fondly from that classic WS. From 77-81 his effectiveness progressively lessened.

    What would Luis Tiant have been if he his work load was better managed? For that matter what about Sandy Koufax?
     

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