After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.


    greetings fivekatz

    I don't think this is fair


    If one were to take a look at how Dice K was managed in Japan, it is no surprise his elbow is in such dire condition that it may require reconstructive surgery.

    A) it didn't happen while pitching the japanese way

    B) we have plenty of guys here that need arm surgery





    IMO the pitch count is only partly about health

    but I think the numbers show a sharp decline for many pitchers

    after the 100 mark

    that said

    I agree that it shouldn't be a hard line

    it should be a flexible pitch limit for each game
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

     Rather than take off a pitch count,maybe they should go back to a 4 man rotation instead.Then you'd be getting more innings out of a starter over the course of a season without wearing him down in single outings. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]greetings fivekatz I don't think this is fair If one were to take a look at how Dice K was managed in Japan, it is no surprise his elbow is in such dire condition that it may require reconstructive surgery. A) it didn't happen while pitching the japanese way B) we have plenty of guys here that need arm surgery IMO the pitch count is only partly about health but I think the numbers show a sharp decline for many pitchers after the 100 mark that said I agree that it shouldn't be a hard line it should be a flexible pitch limit for each game
    Posted by pinstripezac32[/QUOTE]Zac, it wasn't so much aimed at the Japanesse way as the absence of pitch count. Now it does happen to lots of guys in MLB and still happens in the face of pitch count. But his high pitch count at very young ages was cautionary and he has been on the DL every year since he was signed. 

    But more importantly guys are making it to MLB with great stuff than did 10 years ago. Almost every team has a young stud or two in its rotation today.

    Now the rules aren't 100% bullet proof. The NYY were very disciplined with Phil Hughes converting the Joba Riles to the Hughes Rules and here he sits early in his career with arm problems.

    Effectiveness no doubt also comes into play as almost every starter has a drop in effectiveness as they pass the 100 mark. But teams will go past that point when a pitcher has his A game going, as the RS did with Beckett this season with a 120 plus outing.

    But the conventional wisdom now is to apply what the according to the book Moneyball the A's called pre-hab. And that is where if you extend a starter to 120 or so in one start, the next start you limit his pitch count to under 90.

    Managing young pitchers in their second year in the minors to not pass a 160 IP threshold is clearly all about managing the stress on the pitcher's body rather than effectiveness however. 
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pinstripezac32. Show pinstripezac32's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    it wasn't so much aimed at the Japanesse way as the absence of pitch count.

    ok fivekatz, I got it

    But the conventional wisdom now is to apply what the according to the book Moneyball the A's called pre-hab. And that is where if you extend a starter to 120 or so in one start, the next start you limit his pitch count to under 90


    yeah i never heard of that till this yr

    I think it was the sox new PC talkin about 3 game windows

    makes sense




    I think verlander has been free to do whatever


    it will be interesting to see what happens with clay








    Buchholz seeing the benefits of improved conditioning

    Monday, May 23, 2011

    By BRIAN MacPHERSON

    BOSTON — When Clay Buchholz starts getting past 80 or 90 or 100 pitches in an outing, he doesn’t feel it in his arm. He feels it in his legs.

    “When you get tired in a game, everybody might think it’s your arm that gets tired, but your arm never really gets tired,” he said. “It’s the bottom half that’s always working.”

    Buchholz, who will start on Monday at Cleveland, threw a career-high 127 pitches against the Detroit Tigers on Wednesday. But not all 127-pitch outings are the same. Red Sox manager Terry Francona said after Wednesday’s game and again on Thursday that he had no qualms asking Buchholz to throw so many pitches, citing the way Buchholz pitched with the type of consistent delivery that eased the stress on his arm.

    “When you stay in your delivery, it’s less taxing,” Francona said. “He did a really good job of that.”

    There’s some chicken-and-egg there. Buchholz was less taxed because he stayed in his delivery, but he stayed in his delivery because he was less taxed. The conditioning work he’s done all season — work to which he wasn’t always as devoted as he should have been — has paid off for him this season.

    “You’re throwing with your upper body, but your legs, that’s where you generate most of your power,” he said. “The bottom half is going to be working a lot. When I go out there, my legs don’t feel tired. I feel like I could keep going. There’s a point during a game, whether it’s 80 pitches or 100 pitches, your legs feel a little bit more tired than they did the inning before. That’s when everything gets out of sync and you try to overthrow.”

    He didn’t look at all like he was overthrowing on Wednesday. He even won a nine-pitch battle with Austin Jackson, striking Jackson out to strand three runners, justifying the decision by Francona to leave him in the game.

    “He’s earned that,” Francona said. “Guys, with the game on the line, when they’ve thrown a lot of pitches, there’s got to be a lot of trust there.”

    But even with the way the Red Sox trust Buchholz, they’d have pulled him from the game if he wasn’t pitching with a consistent delivery. His conditioning was what kept him going. His stride kept him pointed toward the plate, minimizing the strain on his shoulder and elbow that might have prompted him to be lifted from the game.

    When he was summoned to the major leagues for good two years ago, he threw more than 107 pitches just once in his 16 starts. He threw more than 107 pitches in 16 of his 28 starts last season, and he’s thrown 110 and 127, respectively, in his last two starts this season.

    “I don’t think they’d have let me do that two years ago,” he said. “I feel like I’m at the point now where the days in between my starts, everything is basically the same. The preparation and the conditioning is something I didn’t use to do consistently, and now I’m trying not to miss a workout and to get all my conditioning in.”

    It has paid off in spades so far.

    In fact, after a rough start to the season, Buchholz appears to have recaptured the form that made him an All-Star and garnered him Cy Young consideration a year ago. He has a 1.40 ERA in his last four starts, lowering his ERA for the season from 5.33 to 3.42. He has 22 strikeouts and just five walks in his last 25 2/3 innings, and he’s given up just one home run in that span.

    In some ways, he’s pitching even better than he did last season. He didn’t have a strikeout-to-walk ratio better than 2.44 in any month last season, and it’s at 4.4 so far in May.

    That’s why, even when he loaded the bases in the seventh inning, already past the 100-pitch mark, Francona stuck with him.

    “There was no dilemma,” Francona said. “He started the inning at 100 (pitches). There was no reason to take him out of the game, and, until a run scored, that was his inning. He deserved that.”


     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]The problem is starting pitchers nowadays are not conditioned to throw like they did in 1971. The great pitchers of the late 60's , early 70's all FREQUENTLY threw beyond the 100 pitch plateau with NO ADVERSE EFFECTS. Bob Gibson, Jim Palmer, Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Mike Cueller, Steve Carlton, Catfish Hunter, Sudden Sam McDowell, Phil Niekro, Gaylord Perry,Bert Blyleven, Fergie Jenkins,Juan Marichal, Mickey Lolich, Don Drysdale, Dave McNally , Luis Tiant, Wilbur Wood, etc. these are among the most successful pitchers of that era. They were not held to pitch counts, they stayed and pitched until they couldn't get guys out anymore. Very few of these , if any, ever were forced to end their careers early because of arm trouble. The use of pitch counts is merely a way to justify the big salaries being paid to relief pitchers. And to make sure these high paid "specialists" don't sit too long in the bullpen. It has nothing at all to do with "protecting" players health. If they were really concerned with health of athletes they would have stopped the drug use back in 1985 , before it reached the stage where the majority of players were using PED's and destroying themselves. They would have made helmets mandatory years before it was made mandatory, and the would stop runners from sliding outside the baseline to "take out" the fielder and break up the doubleplay. In short. it's more about money than it is about player's health issues.
    Posted by ZILLAGOD[/QUOTE]

    Are you sure that arm trouble didn't end any of the careers of the players you mentioned. Of course some players are going to be able to handle a lot of work -- in any era. But of the list of players you named isn't as long as you think. Five of them were worked heavily in their 20s and basically washed up by the time they were 30 to 32.

    Hunter is a horrible example. He averaged 277 IP from age 21 to age 30 and was basically washed up.
    Age 31: 4.71 ERA 143 IP.
    Age 32: 3.58 ERA, 118 IP
    Age 33: 2-9, 5.31 ERA, 105 IP.
    Done.

    McDowell is another horrible example. He averged 260 IP from age 22 to 27 and was basically washed up.
    At age 27, he went 20-12 with a 2.92 ERA and 305 IP.

    At age 28, his ERA shot up to 3.40 in 214 IP. OK, decent. He was 13-17 but let's say he got no run support. However ...

    At age 29, his ERA was 3.22 in 164 IP.
    At age 30, his ERA was 4.11 in 135 IP.
    At age 31, 4.69 ERA, 48 IP.
    Age 32, 2.86 ERA but just 34.2 IP.
    Done.

    Drysdale averaged 284 IP from age 22 to 31.
    Ate age 32, he had a 4.45 ERA in 62 IP.
    Done.

    McNally averaged 261 IP from age 25 to 31.
    At age 32, he had a 5.24 ERA in 77.1 IP.
    Done.

    Wilbur Wood was a knuckleballer, but still ...
    He first became a starter at age 29. He averaged 336 IP from age 29 to 33. He was bascially done after that.

    We'll never know if less work in their 20s would have lengthened their careers, but there are even more examples of players like this of that era (Coleman, for example) that you didn't name. 

    Like I posted before, it's no wonder that baseball people are concerned about usage.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZILLAGOD. Show ZILLAGOD's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    The Washington Nationals babied Strasbourg.

    Strasbourg hurt his arm very early.

    Many of the pitchers of past eras did in fact have some arm injuries.

    The point I was trying to make is that arm injuries to pitchers have not decreased due to "babying" the players.

    Percentagewise, I would have to say arm injuries are happening as frequently now ( after babying) than before...if not more.

    The number of pitches is not the issue. The problem is every young gun wants to take the "macho" approach and prove he is the next Nolan Ryan and that he can throw 110 MPH. Pro sports is loaded with machismo attitudes. It not eough to win games. You have to be the biggest , baddest hombre. For hitter it is slugging 70 or more homeruns, for pitchers it is strikeouts, lots of them. But it is not "manly" or "macho" to strike guys out with junk. It is , however, manly to blow a 105 MPH heater past the biggest , baddest slugger in the league.

    In an nutshell, these guys need to throttle back and stop trying to throw their fastball through a brickwall, instead of worrying about number of pitches , they need to get rid of those radar guns that flash pitch speeds and be more concerned with what is imporatant...getting the batter out. So many batters are geared up for fastballs, but can be made to look silly with a slow curve or a change. All you Wakefield supporters should understand that a fastball that breaks the sound barrier is not necessary to win in the major leagues. You can have a nice career with a fastbal that does not top 92 , if you learn to mix your pitches well, and most important ....location....location....location!

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Percentagewise, I would have to say arm injuries are happening as frequently now ( after babying) than before...if not more.


    This is the problem. You're just guessing. I could easily say there were many  more pitchers with arm problems back then, but I don't know if that's true. I have a lot of anecdotal evidence like I posted above, but again, it still would be a guess. And remember, even supposed workhorses had lost years because of arm problems -- Jim Palmer, for example.

    It seems to me that there are more pitchers who pitch well into their 30s now, but again, without studying it, it's hard to know. Even if it's true, is it because there are better medical procedures or is it because the workload of pitchers is better monitered today.

    Bad mechanics is the major reason for arm problems, not throwing too hard. When Buchholz talked about the legs going before the arm, that's the point. When the legs tire, it leads to bad mechanics, which leads to the arm problems.

    Trying to throw through a brick wall isn't bad if you have good mechanics. The point of throttling back is to change speeds and have ball movement, which is the key to pitching. And throwing fastballs is often better for the arm than some of the breaking balls that pitchers throw that put a lot of strain on elbow or shoulder.

    Stasbourg (however you spell it) isn't a good example because baseball people had problems with his mechanics and some feared it would lead to injuries.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Another example on how it's hard to not look at overuse as the reason pitchers flame out quickly is Denny McLain. From 21 to 23, he pitched 220, 265, 234 innings. Then he had those two great years ('68 and '69) when he pitched 336 innings and 325 innings. He then went to 91 innings, 216 innings (ineffectice with a 4.16 ERA) at age 27, then pitches 76 innings for two teams the next year and is done.

    For all the problems he had off the field and not taking care of himself, the fact is, he had serious arm issues after 1969.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    And an interesting tidbit from last year was Nolan Ryan who would tell anybody who listened how stupid all this new fangled pitch count stuff was. And guess waht happened in Texas? The Rangers led MLB in innings pitched by their bullpen. For all Nolan the celebrity longed for the old days, Nolan the team owner and managing partner protected their investment.

    Zillagod, the most challenging pitches right now to young talent aren't fastballs but are the split finger fastball and the more exotic versions of cut fastballs that guys throw. And of course if guys try to throw a real nasty 12 to 6 curve the torque from that is killer over time too.

    Roy I noticed the age on most of those pitchers you posted and it strikes me that they are of an age where they would be early in their first contract out of arbitration under the current CBA.

    And Zack makes a good point about effectiveness. Terry Francona used to like to go as long as he could with Curt Schilling in 2004. With good reason because aside from Embry, Timlin and Foulke he did not have a BP and Schill was a horse who liked to go deep into games. But his performance fell off of a cliff after 7 innings work or 100 pitches.

    Innings 1-3 Schills ERA was 1.78
    Innings 4-6 Schills ERA was 3.88
    Innings 7-9 Schills ERA was 5.45

    In 96 IP 1-3 Schill surrendered 19 runs. In just 38 IP after 6 Schilling gave up allowed 23 runs.

    This example is far from unique. Managing in baseball is largely based on applying statistical probability to your tactics. The probably is greater that no matter what has happened in the 1st 100 pitches the outcome in the next 25-35 will not be as good. So with exception of instances where your bullpen is depleted or you need to protect against depletion for the short term future, pitch count is used as guidance.

    When combined with the added benefits of reducing repetitive stress on key joints and ligaments, the case for it is strong and its adoption because of it has been universal in baseball. Even in Texas.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]And an interesting tidbit from last year was Nolan Ryan who would tell anybody who listened how stupid all this new fangled pitch count stuff was. And guess waht happened in Texas? The Rangers led MLB in innings pitched by their bullpen. For all Nolan the celebrity longed for the old days, Nolan the team owner and managing partner protected their investment. Zillagod, the most challenging pitches right now to young talent aren't fastballs but are the split finger fastball and the more exotic versions of cut fastballs that guys throw. And of course if guys try to throw a real nasty 12 to 6 curve the torque from that is killer over time too. Roy I noticed the age on most of those pitchers you posted and it strikes me that they are of an age where they would be early in their first contract out of arbitration under the current CBA. And Zack makes a good point about effectiveness. Terry Francona used to like to go as long as he could with Curt Schilling in 2004. With good reason because aside from Embry, Timlin and Foulke he did not have a BP and Schill was a horse who liked to go deep into games. But his performance fell off of a cliff after 7 innings work or 100 pitches. Innings 1-3 Schills ERA was 1.78 Innings 4-6 Schills ERA was 3.88 Innings 7-9 Schills ERA was 5.45 In 96 IP 1-3 Schill surrendered 19 runs. In just 38 IP after 6 Schilling gave up allowed 23 runs. This example is far from unique. Managing in baseball is largely based on applying statistical probability to your tactics. The probably is greater that no matter what has happened in the 1st 100 pitches the outcome in the next 25-35 will not be as good. So with exception of instances where your bullpen is depleted or you need to protect against depletion for the short term future, pitch count is used as guidance. When combined with the added benefits of reducing repetitive stress on key joints and ligaments, the case for it is strong and its adoption because of it has been universal in baseball. Even in Texas.
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]


    Good stuff.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    The consensus is that over 100 pitches for many starts over a few years and you could be endangering your pitcher

    consensus is not fact however and economics is as much the cause of this - if not more than medical science...

    but what really gets my goat is the one inning per relief nonsense that dictates our manager's moves...u should pitch who is hot and keep him there
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]but what really gets my goat is the one inning per relief nonsense that dictates our manager's moves...u should pitch who is hot and keep him there
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    You should change that statement to ALL MANAGERS. It's the Tony LaRussification of the bullpens. LaRussa started this one-inning per reliever crp when he was with Oakland and he made Eck the closer and it's become the guide to how to use bullpens.

    I don't really agree with the philosophy. Supposedly, using relievers one inning at a time allows you to have more arms available and so relievers know their roles.

    Whether we like it or not, it's how the game is managed today. Rip Francona for managing like that if you like, but make sure you rip all the other managers too. Look at how many relievers Showalter used against Boston in that game last week -- what was it seven pitchers total, six relievers.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    im not really ripping our manager as i am the entire trend....but i do think our manager because of Theo's influence is 100% behind this philosophy...a deviation from this norm (for example the last game we lost) would only help us imho


    sometimes you have to manage by feeling because emotion and momentum are huge factors in ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE....why pull a guy who is mowing them down simply because it's someone else's inning?
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    In Response to Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.:
    [QUOTE]im not really ripping our manager as i am the entire trend....but i do think our manager because of Theo's influence is 100% behind this philosophy...a deviation from this norm (for example the last game we lost) would only help us imho sometimes you have to manage by feeling because emotion and momentum are huge factors in ATHLETIC PERFORMANCE....why pull a guy who is mowing them down simply because it's someone else's inning?
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    I agree with not liking the trend, but it happened long before Theo arrived. Like I said, it goes back to the LaRussa. By the time Theo took over, it was SOP in baseball. My dad passed away 10 years ago, but I still remember him making the same complaints about how the bullpens were being used. Theo just jumped on the bandwagon that was already sailing along.

    The the thinking is if you use a seventh inning guy, eighth inning guy then the closer, all three will be availabe the next day and you have more flexibility than if you used one guy for three innings. The next day, you really wouldn't have him.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Good evidentiary stuff, royf19.  I would also submit the 1980 Oakland A's trio of Rick Langford, Mike Norris and Matt Keough, whose promising careers were destroyed that season by Billy Martin's 'unlimited' use.

    1980 numbers
    Langford age 28 19-12, 3.26 ERA 290.0 IP
    Norris age 25 22-9 2.53 ERA 284.1 IP
    Keough age 24 16-13 2.92 ERA ERA 250.0 IP

    All 3 came down with arm problems and were virtually done by 1982, never again reaching 100 innings in an MLB season after that year.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    up the hole is right..as if on cue 'Coma pulls a dominant Clay for no reason
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: After last night, I say stick the pitch count up your hole.

    Pretty good debate overall. This has been discuss before, but Roy brought in some compelling data - and good research.

    I think what Zilla is missing is that his memory into nostalgia gets the best of his vision. This is a different era. And I doubt guys like Hunter or Palmer would have fared as well against the juicers in the hitter parks.

    I also doubt Fingers or Lyle could cut three frames effectively for the same reasons, but we'll never know.

    I think the most pertinent point was Roy's regarding mechanics.
    Pitching is an unnatural act to begin with. Poor mechanics shorten careers.
    I happen to think this pitch count era is overstated, but it's a good way to deter potential injury and a mode to measure effectiveness.

    Each pitcher has a different threshold. Thus, the "rules" should be applied accordingly. Starters will often get hit late into games, but not just because of fatigue. Hitters have seen them 2-3 times already. The mystery is no longer there.

    The idea is sound, but it shouldn't be taken as etched in stone at every turn.
    Same with role definition. Common sense has to be incorporated when the situation dictates.
     

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