AL East myth debunked

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    AL East myth debunked

    For the past two seasons the Red Sox have finished in third place in the AL East behind two teams that went on to lose four of five series in the postseason.

    I'm not suggesting that the AL East is a weak division ... it is not. However, the AL East is not the superpower division that it's trumped up to be each year.
     
    The AL East's recent postseason failures point up the parity in Major League Baseball. There are a lot of good teams out there.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    Looking at records VS. divisions during the regular season is a far better indicator, and the East by far does better against the rest of the league than the rest of league does against the East.  The 4th place Blue Jays played 8 games over .500 against the Central and West.

    The fact that the Wild Card has come out of the East every year but 1 since 2003 is also a telling stat.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    Having the wild card come from the division after 162 games proves a ton more than the results of a couple short series in the postseason, unless you have never taken a statistics course past the 7th grade.

    Are you trying to pretend that Yankee team that lost tonight was somehow worse than the Chicago White Sox?  That the Rays are worse than Minnesota?  Please.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    Mariners are not one of those good teams.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    Having the wild card come from the division after 162 games proves a ton more than the results of a couple short series in the postseason, unless you have never taken a statistics course past the 7th grade. Are you trying to pretend that Yankee team that lost tonight was somehow worse than the Chicago White Sox?  That the Rays are worse than Minnesota?  Please.
    Posted by SoxFanInIL

    In 2007, the AL East posted a 72-92 record against AL West, but sent two teams to the postseason, including the World Series champion Red Sox.

    Were the 2007 Red Sox merely forutnate in "a couple of short series in the postseason"? With the imbalanced schedule, did two teams come out of the AL East that season because the division also included two teams with the league's worst records?

    I don't deny that the AL East had the best regular-season record in the league this year.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    Mariners are not one of those good teams.
    Posted by 1958lesspaul

    Agreed.Smile
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked : In 2007, the AL East posted a 72-92 record against AL West, but sent two teams to the postseason, including the World Series champion Red Sox. Were the 2007 Red Sox merely forutnate in "a couple of short series in the postseason"? With the imbalanced schedule, did two teams come out of the AL East that season because the division also included two teams with the league's worst records? I don't deny that the AL East had the best regular-season record in the league this year.
    Posted by hill55


    That was flukey; more often than not, just the opposite has been the case over the last decade, if not longer. PS I have an MS in Statistics, for whatever that's worth to the argument (admittedly, nil)
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    Could also be that the teams beat each other up and to a certain degree hold each other down. It'd be interesting to see how an East team would do in the PS if they had a 108 win season and didn't get beat up by the division on the way there. Might be a different result. In 1993 the Braves and Giants had an exhausting race that the Braves won on the last day. They won 104, and the Giants won 103. The Braves were out of gas, and went down in 6 to the Curt Schilling Phillies. Atlanta might have beaten Philly had they not gotten so beat up battling the Giants. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Thesemenarecowards. Show Thesemenarecowards's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    The Blue Jays are easily the 2nd best team in the Central. 

    In 2007, 2008, 2009 the East put 3 different teams in the world series with 2 winning.  I can't think of any other division that can make that kind of claim in the past 15 years.  

    Find a new argument, cause this one is a dead end for you.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked : That was flukey; more often than not, just the opposite has been the case over the last decade, if not longer. PS I have an MS in Statistics, for whatever that's worth to the argument (admittedly, nil)
    Posted by nhsteven



    Really? Maybe you can answer a question. Why is it that when clothes come out of the dryer there is a 50% chance they will be right side out, but most of the time aren't! And when I go to plug something in, and it has one of those plugs that's bigger on one side, you know, I have a 50% chance of having it turned the right way, but probably 75% time I end up having to turn it around to get it to work! Yell
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    The Blue Jays are easily the 2nd best team in the Central.  In 2007, 2008, 2009 the East put 3 different teams in the world series with 2 winning.  I can't think of any other division that can make that kind of claim in the past 15 years.   Find a new argument, cause this one is a dead end for you.
    Posted by Thesemenarecowards

    That was among the most impressive achievements of the decade (even though the AL East was 82-92 against the AL West in 2007, 94-79 against the AL West in 2008 and 79-95 against the AL West in 2009).

    * FWIW, I had one statistics course in graduate school in 1984.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to AL East myth debunked:
    For the past two seasons the Red Sox have finished in third place in the AL East behind two teams that went on to lose four of five series in the postseason. I'm not suggesting that the AL East is a weak division ... it is not. However, the AL East is not the superpower division that it's trumped up to be each year.   The AL East's recent postseason failures point up the parity in Major League Baseball. There are a lot of good teams out there.
    Posted by hill55


    I'm not going to say the AL East is clearly dominant, but is there a reason that the 9 game post-season sample carries more weight than the 810 game regular season sample in this type of evaluation?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to AL East myth debunked : I'm not going to say the AL East is clearly dominant, but is there a reason that the 9 game post-season sample carries more weight than the 810 game regular season sample in this type of evaluation?
    Posted by notin

    You always want to give the larger sample more weight (although I would not detract from the World Series championships of the 2007 Red Sox and the 2009 Yankees because the AL East fared poorly against the AL West those years in the regular season).

    FWIW, the sample cited in my opening post covered 24 games in the 2010 and 2011 postseasons. This is not the NFL postseason where a team is eliminated when it loses one game. AL East teams lost four of five series that each were, at a minimum, the best of five.

    From the Wall Street Journal:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203388804576615394054070366.html
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked : In 2007, the AL East posted a 72-92 record against AL West, but sent two teams to the postseason, including the World Series champion Red Sox. Were the 2007 Red Sox merely forutnate in "a couple of short series in the postseason"? With the imbalanced schedule, did two teams come out of the AL East that season because the division also included two teams with the league's worst records? I don't deny that the AL East had the best regular-season record in the league this year.
    Posted by hill55



    Which should tell you how faulty it is to rate  divisional strength on the strength of a short PO series. We've been down this road before Hill, and I fully expected this thread to emerge. If you want a true read, again, go back a few decades of regular season play. Aren't you the one who points toward short sample sizes?


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked : Which should tell you how faulty it is to rate  divisional strength on the strength of a short PO series. We've been down this road before Hill , and I fully expected this thread to emerge. If you want a true read, again, go back a few decades of regular season play. Aren't you the one who points toward short sample sizes?
    Posted by harness

    I recall posting to this forum a decade's worth of won-lost records of AL East teams vs. AL West teams in head-to-head competition. Despite the AL West's edge in the regular season, the AL East had far more success in the postseason ... until 2010 and 2011. AL West teams have won four of the last five postseason matchups with AL East teams, starting with the Angels' sweep of the Red Sox in 2009 ALDS and culminating with the Rangers' three-series sweep of AL East teams the past two postseasons.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked : I recall posting to this forum a decade's worth of won-lost records of AL East teams vs. AL West teams in head-to-head competition. Despite the AL West's edge in the regular season, the AL East had far more success in the postseason ... until 2010 and 2011. AL West teams have won four of the last five postseason matchups with AL East teams, starting with the Angels' sweep of the Red Sox in 2009 ALDS and culminating with the Rangers' three- series sweep of AL East teams the past two postseasons.
    Posted by hill55


    My point is, the post season is a poor barometer because of the game's infinite variables. It's not like football or basketball. The best in baseball has to be weighed over time.

    And if you must use PO's as your measuring stick, then recall, I showed you how the west historically can't compare with the East when it comes to PO appearances and WS titles. Either way, the title of this thread is hyperbole and beneath your normal standards. 
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Boomerangsdotcom. Show Boomerangsdotcom's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    Hill55, it seems like the Mariners just can't get lucky either. That season when they won 110 games was incredible and Ichiro has been reason enough to go to games though. They are in some ways a purist team with the great OF defense they have had but I think it's tough for them to sign any hitters since no one wants to hit there. They are going to have to develop them. 

    In some ways it's easier to field a great team in a hitters park. You can buy a couple great starters and draft players who can hit. Then again if you can get in the playoffs being a team focused on pitching can really pay dividends, ala the Giants last year. It's tougher to generate TV and attendance revenue when the team can't hit though, in part because of their park.

    Is there hope for the Mariners any time soon?

    The Angels and Texas are a formidable challenge. They need to really rethink things IMO to take things forward.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from adam4522. Show adam4522's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    These guys were not set up for the payoffs.  They had to wear themselves out just to get there...
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    Five words to know and love: the playoffs are a crapshoot. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    hill55, BTW, you made a good call earlier in the year when you pointed out that Delmon Young could be a significant pickup for the Tigers.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    I'm pretty sure that playoff games are won by the better teams, not the better divisions...so as Jesss Jackson would say on Saturday Night Live....the point is moot!
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    The Yankees ended up only having to face Verlander once too.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from hill55. Show hill55's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked : My point is, the post season is a poor barometer because of the game's infinite variables. It's not like football or basketball. The best in baseball has to be weighed over time. And if you must use PO's as your measuring stick, then recall, I showed you how the west historically can't compare with the East when it comes to PO appearances and WS titles. Either way, the title of this thread is hyperbole and beneath your normal standards. 
    Posted by harness

    I'm NOT suggesting that the AL East is an inferior division. I'm suggesting that by dropping four straight series in the postseason the AL East has not lived up to its superpower reputation. I submit that the streak is a sign of parity.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: AL East myth debunked

    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked:
    In Response to Re: AL East myth debunked : I'm NOT suggesting that the AL East is an inferior division. I'm suggesting that by dropping four straight series in the postseason the AL East has not lived up to its superpower reputation. I submit that the streak is a sign of parity.
    Posted by hill55


    hill55,
    Cleary the Yankees are the AL "Superpower" and the Philadelphia Phillies are their equivilant in the NL...Both are perennial playoff teams that are built to win it all...They have highest payrolls in their respective leagues and are the standard by which all teams in their league are measured and Cleary if you want to be a legit WS team you have to be able to matchup with both of them in a short series. If we use the literal definition of Superpower "having far greater resources thus more advanced and powerful weapons". I'd say they both certainly qualify.

    As for whether the AL East is a Superpower or not...I'll just ask a simpe question geography aside...If your the GM of the Detriot Tigers and your offered the choice to move back into the AL East and allow Toronto to move to the AL Central...My guess is they say thanks but no thanks Ditto is you're Texas...

    End of the day I agree that there's a ton of Parity between both leagues and much of that is due to the revenues in the game today...So if we use World Series Championships as a means of evaluating the strengths of each division or league. If you go back to 2000 the AL has won 6, the NL 5...In that time the AL East is the only division with two teams that won it twice...The Yanks also lost 2 and the Rays 1...So that's 7 times in the last 11 years the AL East was represented in the WS...Add to that the 2 ALCS the Sox lost and the 2 the yanks lost....I'd say the AL east has represented itself well...

    Championships
    AL East:      4 (Sox 2 and Yanks 2) 
    AL Central:  1 White Sox 1
    AL West:     1 Angels 1

    NL East: 2 (Marlins 1 / Phillies 1)
    NL Central: 1 Cardinals
    NL West: 2 Diamondbacks / Giants
     
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