Angels looking for young pitching

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    FWIW Napoli leads the league in UZR for firstbaseman.  I'm not saying he's the best....but he's been really really good defensively this year. 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    FWIW Napoli leads the league in UZR for firstbaseman.  I'm not saying he's the best....but he's been really really good defensively this year. 



    Not saying Naps is better than AGon, although his WAR and OPS says he is, but would you rather have AGon or Naps and the $8M spent on others?

    (That's not even touching the money saved on CC, JB and Punto.)

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

     

     

    FWIW Napoli leads the league in UZR for firstbaseman.  I'm not saying he's the best....but he's been really really good defensively this year. 

     

     



    Not saying Naps is better than AGon, although his WAR and OPS says he is, but would you rather have AGon or Naps and the $8M spent on others?

     

     

    (That's not even touching the money saved on CC, JB and Punto.)

     



    That's an interesting question.  If having AGON back meant having CC and BEcket back then no.  But for arguments sake if we were just compaing Napoli Vs. Agon at a higher price I'd still take AGON.  Yeah he didn't turn into the 50 HR (maybe a bit of an exageration) guy we all hoped he did, but he fits the profile of a guy who will consistantly hit 20-30 with doubles power, Good D, and good hitting with RISP. 

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

     

     

    FWIW Napoli leads the league in UZR for firstbaseman.  I'm not saying he's the best....but he's been really really good defensively this year. 

     

     



    Not saying Naps is better than AGon, although his WAR and OPS says he is, but would you rather have AGon or Naps and the $8M spent on others?

     

     

    (That's not even touching the money saved on CC, JB and Punto.)

     



    That's an interesting question.  If having AGON back meant having CC and BEcket back then no.  But for arguments sake if we were just compaing Napoli Vs. Agon at a higher price I'd still take AGON.  Yeah he didn't turn into the 50 HR (maybe a bit of an exageration) guy we all hoped he did, but he fits the profile of a guy who will consistantly hit 20-30 with doubles power, Good D, and good hitting with RISP. 

     



    He's still a nice player, but he has a .802 OPS, and 5 years left at $21M each.  Too much and too easily replaced.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

     

     

    FWIW Napoli leads the league in UZR for firstbaseman.  I'm not saying he's the best....but he's been really really good defensively this year. 

     

     



    Not saying Naps is better than AGon, although his WAR and OPS says he is, but would you rather have AGon or Naps and the $8M spent on others?

     

     

    (That's not even touching the money saved on CC, JB and Punto.)

     



    That's an interesting question.  If having AGON back meant having CC and BEcket back then no.  But for arguments sake if we were just compaing Napoli Vs. Agon at a higher price I'd still take AGON.  Yeah he didn't turn into the 50 HR (maybe a bit of an exageration) guy we all hoped he did, but he fits the profile of a guy who will consistantly hit 20-30 with doubles power, Good D, and good hitting with RISP. 

     

     



    He's still a nice player, but he has a .802 OPS, and 5 years left at $21M each.  Too much and too easily replaced.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That was exactly my point last August. Everyone was lamenting the loss of AGon, but explaining it away by saying it was the price to pay for getting the Dodgers to take CC, JB and Punto.

    At the time, I called the trade, "perhaps the best Red Sox trade in my lifetime" based on 2 major things that I mentioned last year:

    1) I'd have liked the trade even if we got no prospects in return.

    2) Even the loss of AGon alone was not such a big deal at his contract cost per production level. When I said 1Bmen were "a dime a dozen", I didn't mean it like finding guys like Carp or Loney was easy, but that the money spent on AGon could get a guy like Napoli who can bring you close to AGon's skillset for just a fraction of the cost. There are always Napoli types on the FA market. This winter, there is Napoli (again), Morneau, Morales, Morse, and maybe a couple more I can't name. All much cheaper that $21M. All allowing us to spend the difference elsewhere.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    Thought you meant mike trout??  i ll do it in a heart beat. 

    Trout would cost more than Stanton: much more.

    To see the Angels throw money around like this shows they want to win. Trading Trout makes no sense for their situation. 

    I'd love to get Trout, but even with our glut of young pitchers, we don't match up well.

    Stanton is probably our best chance big pick-up. The Myers boat sailed last year.

    I can't see many top WAR guys that could be pried from their teams this winter. What do you think?

    9.9 Trout - Nope

    7.5 McCucthen -Nope

    7.2 Miggy -Nope

    6.7 C davis -Nope

    6.5 Josh Donaldson (Oak) -Hmmm.... (17th best OPS at .869)

    6.2 Longoria -Not for a few more years

    6.0 Carpenter (STL) Nope

    6.0 C Gomex (MIL) Hmmm.... (36th in OPS though)

    5.9 Votto- Nope

    5.7 Machado- Nope

    5.7 Ellsbury- Not a gain/possible loss if he walks

    5.7 Wright - Nope

    5.6 Cano- Wrong position

    5.3 Goldschmidt- Nope

    5.2 Victorino- got him

    5.2 I Desmond (WSH) Doubt it

    5.0 Mauer - Possibly, but signing McCann would not cost prospects

    5.0 Beltre- Nope

    4.9 Molina- Nope

    4.8 Pedey- got em

    4.7 Posey- Nope

    4.7 Choo- FA - (can move Shane to CF) 13th best OPS

    4.7 Pence - FA (can move shane to CF)

    4.6 Zobrist- highly doubtful

    4.4 S Marte- Nope

    4.2 Simmons- Nope

    4.2 Encarnacion- doubtful (10th best OPS)

    4.2 A Jones-Nope

    4.2 Bautista- Nope

    4.0 Werth- Salary Dump? (5th best OPS this year in MLB)

    Other .800+ OPS guys possibly available:

    M Byrd .851,  N Cruz .841, B Moss .840, Utley .822, A Lind .822, Venable .812, K Morales .793

     

    Stanton would have placed about 22nd in OPS (.855) if he had enough PAs to qualify.

     

     

     

     

     

    Sox4ever

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    trumbo as some people have mentioned is basically a younger mike napoli. not worth trading for, if we are going to let napoli walk (which i would), the guy we should get is jose abreu. 26 yrs old, huge power from the right side. plus we could get him for just money and no prospects. if we are going to trade prospects, giancarlo stanton is the guy to go all in for. perfect fit for LF. Assuming ells signs elswhere, our line up could be :

    victorino

    pedroia

    stanton

    ortiz

    abreu

    middlebrooks

    bogaerts 

    salty

    bradley jr

    pretty solid throughout. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc1944. Show MadMc1944's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    Who are you trading to get Stanton? WMB, JBJ and Xander are still in your lineup? Miami does like young pitching perhaps that's the enticement--great lineup. Wouldn't Ortiz love that protection.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

     

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

     

     

     

    FWIW Napoli leads the league in UZR for firstbaseman.  I'm not saying he's the best....but he's been really really good defensively this year. 

     

     



    Not saying Naps is better than AGon, although his WAR and OPS says he is, but would you rather have AGon or Naps and the $8M spent on others?

     

     

    (That's not even touching the money saved on CC, JB and Punto.)

     



    That's an interesting question.  If having AGON back meant having CC and BEcket back then no.  But for arguments sake if we were just compaing Napoli Vs. Agon at a higher price I'd still take AGON.  Yeah he didn't turn into the 50 HR (maybe a bit of an exageration) guy we all hoped he did, but he fits the profile of a guy who will consistantly hit 20-30 with doubles power, Good D, and good hitting with RISP. 

     

     



    He's still a nice player, but he has a .802 OPS, and 5 years left at $21M each.  Too much and too easily replaced.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    fair enough, that's too much money for a 1Bman.  I would consider giving that money to a .800+ SS or CF with gold glove defense but not that I'm thinking with my better half, not a first baseman.  

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to MadMc1944's comment:

    Who are you trading to get Stanton? WMB, JBJ and Xander are still in your lineup? Miami does like young pitching perhaps that's the enticement--great lineup. Wouldn't Ortiz love that protection.



    As I mentioned on another thread, I'd try to get him without losing Bogey. Maybe something like this:

    Middlebrooks or Cecchini

    JBJ

    2 from: Webster, DLR, Workman, Britton, Ranaudo, but hopefully not Owens.

    1 from: Brentz, Coyle, or Lava

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    I would offer up cecchini, webster, de la rosa, and marrero/brentz. Pretty much they can have any two pitchers not name henry owens. barnes, ranuado, webster, rubby. all up for grabs. we have tons of pieces to get stanton. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to redsoxpride34's comment:

    I would offer up cecchini, webster, de la rosa, and marrero/brentz. Pretty much they can have any two pitchers not name henry owens. barnes, ranuado, webster, rubby. all up for grabs. we have tons of pieces to get stanton. 



    Two pitchers not named Owens will not be enough. 3 won't either.

    I doubt that Webster, de la Rosa, Workman, Brentz, Coyle, and Lava would  net him either.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc1944. Show MadMc1944's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    Something to keep in mind: before Giancarlo Stanton was Giancarlo he was a raw looking kid named Xander Bogaerts---almost the same physical dimensions.

    Three guys that at Age 20 were about the same in size and shape.

    Stanton Today----6'5--233--R/R---B'Day---11/8/89--Current Age---23---Outfield

    *Machado Today--6'2---180--R/R---B'Day---7/6/92----Current Age--21----3B

    *Xander Today----6'3---175--R/R---B'Day---10/1/92--Current Age 20------SS

                 * Today they look like Manny and Xander in 2 years they are Giancarlo.         

    Without giving up the farm the Sox will have their Giancarlo Stanton as soon as they take the handcuffs off and let him play. Machado was force fed and made the transition from AA to 3 B on the O's at  age 20. The Sox don't have that pressing need for Xander and they can afford to let him grow slowly.

    When I think about trading our prospects I need to be reminded of the Cards and Braves of this season. They are not all home grown--they are talented, young and they play with a youthful drive.

    I have suggested we could have a young youthful group as early as mid 2014- definitely by '15.

    Abreu 1B, Pedroia 2 B, Xander SS, Cecchini 3 B, Nava LF, JBJ CF, Brentz RF, Vazquez C. WMB DH.

    Rotation: Lester, Buch, Owens, Ranaudo, Barnes, Workman.

    Payroll---- $150 M---you would need to have a couple of contributing FA----Like a Beltran or Holliday from the Cards----or the Upton's and Uggla from the Bravos.  

    In time if you allow Dempster, Vic, Nap, Drew, Gomes, Peavy, Lackey, Ortiz and Ells contracts to expire naturally and replace them, where possible, with home grown guys that are ready, add some guys like  a gomes , Vic, Johnny Mac, a Morse or Morales to do what our veterans are doing today, you could have a very good team.

     

     

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from emp9. Show emp9's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to moonslav59's comment:

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to hill55's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Will Middlebrooks would be a closer comp to Mark Trumbo than Mike Napoli would.

    MLB careers stats:

    WM 604 PA, 32 BB (5.3%), 151 K (24.9%), .264/.307/.480/.787

    MT 1981 PA, 107 BB (6.0%), 444 K (25.0%), .254/.301/.476/.777

    MN 3182 PA, 375 BB (11.8%), 846 K (26.6%), .259/.356/.502/.858

    In 2014 Will Middlebrooks will be even less expensive option at first base than Mark Trumbo will be.

     

     



    Perhaps he is a better comp.  but seeing how we are talking about replacing Napoli with Trumbo I figured it's appropriate to compare those two

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    True, but with Boggy possibly being our 3Bman next year, Middlebrooks is in the 1B mix next year.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yea, i mean, Farrell blindly threw WMB at 2B for a game this year. I don't see 1B out of the question. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to notin's comment:

    If the Sox are going to pursue a free-swinging RH power hitter who cannot field, I would rather they go after Houston's Chris Carter than Trumbo, for a few reasons. 

    Not that Carter tops my wish list either. ..

     

    Why don't we just bring back Dick Stuart, if anybody on the board remembers Dr. Stangeglove. Scary to think I never made it past the sandlot. I couldn't field a softball coming at me at 10mph with a fish net. Nor could I hit one. Guess that's why I became a long distance runner, it doesn't require great coordination. 

    Hetch(stangeglove)pete

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    Why go for Trumbo when we can just give Napoli a QO and punt 1B to 2015?

    Worst case scenario is we get a draft pick, oh noooo, and have to go out and sign a one year stop gap, and we give up zero prospects 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to MadMc1944's comment:

    Something to keep in mind: before Giancarlo Stanton was Giancarlo he was a raw looking kid named Xander Bogaerts---almost the same physical dimensions.

    Three guys that at Age 20 were about the same in size and shape.

    Stanton Today----6'5--233--R/R---B'Day---11/8/89--Current Age---23---Outfield

    *Machado Today--6'2---180--R/R---B'Day---7/6/92----Current Age--21----3B

    *Xander Today----6'3---175--R/R---B'Day---10/1/92--Current Age 20------SS

                 * Today they look like Manny and Xander in 2 years they are Giancarlo.         

    Without giving up the farm the Sox will have their Giancarlo Stanton as soon as they take the handcuffs off and let him play. Machado was force fed and made the transition from AA to 3 B on the O's at  age 20. The Sox don't have that pressing need for Xander and they can afford to let him grow slowly.

    When I think about trading our prospects I need to be reminded of the Cards and Braves of this season. They are not all home grown--they are talented, young and they play with a youthful drive.

    I have suggested we could have a young youthful group as early as mid 2014- definitely by '15.

    Abreu 1B, Pedroia 2 B, Xander SS, Cecchini 3 B, Nava LF, JBJ CF, Brentz RF, Vazquez C. WMB DH.

    Rotation: Lester, Buch, Owens, Ranaudo, Barnes, Workman.

    Payroll---- $150 M---you would need to have a couple of contributing FA----Like a Beltran or Holliday from the Cards----or the Upton's and Uggla from the Bravos.  

    In time if you allow Dempster, Vic, Nap, Drew, Gomes, Peavy, Lackey, Ortiz and Ells contracts to expire naturally and replace them, where possible, with home grown guys that are ready, add some guys like  a gomes , Vic, Johnny Mac, a Morse or Morales to do what our veterans are doing today, you could have a very good team.

     

     

     



    Our future does look promising, and we have the payroll fexibility to cover slots that the kids do not make it to.

    I do think we have a little too much quantity rather than quality on the farm, so I wouldn't mind seeing some 2 or 3 for 1 deals this winter.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Yaso#7. Show Yaso#7's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    You all are smoking dope if you think there is any chance of Stanton playing for the Sox next year.

     

    I would trade Dubront in the off season. Some pitching starved team will be suckers enough to give up a quality player or prospects for a Pitcher that at best can make it through 6 innings.

    How about Dubront for Alex Gordon?

     


    Formerly JYASO

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from joel49. Show joel49's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to ctredsoxfanhugh's comment:

    FWIW Napoli leads the league in UZR for firstbaseman.  I'm not saying he's the best....but he's been really really good defensively this year. 




    ding, ding, ding!!

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to Yaso#7's comment:

    You all are smoking dope if you think there is any chance of Stanton playing for the Sox next year.

     

    I would trade Dubront in the off season. Some pitching starved team will be suckers enough to give up a quality player or prospects for a Pitcher that at best can make it through 6 innings.

    How about Dubront for Alex Gordon?

     


    Formerly JYASO



    The Royals extended Gordon last year, presumably with the intention of keeping him.

     

    Doubront for Billy Butler?  He has one year left plus an option for 2015...

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mef429. Show mef429's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to Yaso#7's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    You all are smoking dope if you think there is any chance of Stanton playing for the Sox next year.

     

    I would trade Dubront in the off season. Some pitching starved team will be suckers enough to give up a quality player or prospects for a Pitcher that at best can make it through 6 innings.

    How about Dubront for Alex Gordon?

     


    Formerly JYASO

     



    The Royals extended Gordon last year, presumably with the intention of keeping him.

     

     

    Doubront for Billy Butler?  He has one year left plus an option for 2015...

    [/QUOTE]

    that one gives me pause. on 1 hand i've been pretty high on Doobie (ha!) but on the other hand i also covet Butler as a 1Bman/DH insurance in case papi ever retires....... i'll have to sleep on that one.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Angels looking for young pitching

    In response to mef429's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to Yaso#7's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    You all are smoking dope if you think there is any chance of Stanton playing for the Sox next year.

     

    I would trade Dubront in the off season. Some pitching starved team will be suckers enough to give up a quality player or prospects for a Pitcher that at best can make it through 6 innings.

    How about Dubront for Alex Gordon?

     


    Formerly JYASO

     

     



    The Royals extended Gordon last year, presumably with the intention of keeping him.

     

     

     

    Doubront for Billy Butler?  He has one year left plus an option for 2015...

     

    [/QUOTE]

    that one gives me pause. on 1 hand i've been pretty high on Doobie (ha!) but on the other hand i also covet Butler as a 1Bman/DH insurance in case papi ever retires....... i'll have to sleep on that one.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'd take Napoli and Doubront over Butler alone.

     
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