answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 12:29 AM EDT
harness called out nyy fans on the topic
so let me ask you all , but before you answer
please follow my 1 stipulation at the end of this post
OK we all heard it B4 , most of us have repeated such things,
the rest of us including me have agreed to a point with....
it's a popularity contest
mgrs don't have time / interest to check out the stats
but I want to know why you think jeter has won the GG
the last 2 yrs
my only stipulation is
that the same reasons fits for
Franklin Gutierrez & Adam Jones & Jeter
I suggest the mgr's and coaches appreciate the guy who
makes the simple plays in the big spots every time
more than a lot of fans do
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 12:36 AM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
- First: 10/16/2007
- Last: 10/28/2011
This oughta be good.
However, I would have entitled this: Is it right or wrong?
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 7:49 AM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8433
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 5/22/2013
zac, let me try this from the perspective of a fan who loves numbers but who is not that sophisticated with the new metrics. Here are some comparison numbers for Jeter and Andrus for the last 2 seasons.
Jeter
2009
Innings 1260
Chances 554
Errors 8
2010
Innings 1303
Chances 553
Errors 6
Andrus
2009
Innings 1238
Chances 690
Errors 22
2010
Innings 1291
Chances 659
Errors 16
What I see in those numbers is that Andrus has a huge number of additional chances and plays made over Derek, even though he also has more errors. Now to refine that further you need the more advanced metrics which isn't my dept. One other thing I notice looking at Derek's fielding numbers is that his number of chances has declined steadily since 2005. So right here we have some basic indicators that show him to be sure-handed but possibly not getting to a lot of balls that a quicker SS like Andrus does.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 9:10 AM EDT
- gr82bme
- Posts: 1883
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
This oughta be good. However, I would have entitled this: Is it right or wrong?
Posted by harness
I think because Jeter is so well respected by players, managers, and fans, he won the GGs on reputation. He probably gets the "he's paid his dues" vote from managers, so if it's between him and a really good younger SS, managers think that eventually the younger SS will get his GG (due) in future years. The sabermaticians have, for a few years now, come to the opinion that his range is pretty bad. Also, he has a human vacuum cleaner at 1st base, so many potential throwing errors get scooped - ergo, no error. Thing is, I watch Sox games and only see opponent SS' a few times a year (outside of the east). We certainly don't have a GG'er, I don't think Toronto's, O's, or Rays' SS are any better than Jeter. May be beside the point anyway - other than the Ozzie's of the world, most folks don't get in the HOF based on D - if they did, Dewey would have gotten far more consideration - and Jeter's going in on his bat/leadership of an oft-champion.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 9:19 AM EDT
- S5
- Posts: 1384
- First: 8/9/2012
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With all due respect to Jeter...
I think it would be difficult for anyone to say that Jeter was the best defensive SS in the AL last year. His range IS declining and he's using the 'tricks of the trade' he learned over his career to play as well as he does.
I've thought for some time that the GG Award is based on perception rather than metrics, and that perception is the perception of the players and managers - two groups who have neither the time nor the motivation to look up the numbers. They play with/against players and they feel that they KNOW. They JUST KNOW who can play and who can't.
In Jeter's case players have a lot of respect for Jeter and his career, and as such give him a bit of a 'free pass' when it comes to his declining defensive skills.
Lat year's GG was a "Lifetime Achievement Award". It'll be interesting to see who gets the award this year.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 11:27 AM EDT
- southpaw777
- Posts: 8228
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the answer to your question seems easy..Its a popularity contest..Once you win a couple, it seems they just keep giving them to you..Thats just my view on it..Some MIGHT deserve it, but some deserve it more.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 11:34 AM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8433
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I'm not so sure it's a popularity contest. I think it's being done a very limited amount of information. And I think once a guy wins it once it adds to his status and the voters are going to be a little biased in his favor.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 11:39 AM EDT
slomag ''The managers and coaches are mostly former players who no longer have the skills to take to the field. Is it any surprise they just voted for one of their own :)''
my only stipulation was
that the same reasons fits for
Franklin Gutierrez & Adam Jones & Jeter
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 12:02 PM EDT
- southpaw777
- Posts: 8228
- First: 4/2/2011
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
I'm not so sure it's a popularity contest. I think it's being done a very limited amount of information. And I think once a guy wins it once it adds to his status and the voters are going to be a little biased in his favor.
Posted by Hfxsoxnut
Thats exactly what i mean...Maybe a bad choice of phrases on my part(popularity contest), but you hit the nail on the head..
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 3:33 PM EDT
Jeter deserves it. Yes he does not make as many plays as he used to.
However he makes all the plays he gets to.He gives pitchers the faith that their SS will make every single play and not let them down.
He also with his experience makes sure that all the other players know what the hell is going on. IMHO he also has made Cano a better second baseman.
Any RS fan that say they'd rather have the revolving door at SS that the RS have had versus Jeter is a LIAR. Even when it was debated who was better Nomar or Jeter it was a toss up. If it were the opposite (Jeter on the RS) RS fans would have picked Jeter
Ilove my Sox but would have loved to have Jeter here for his whole career and even now.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 5:01 PM EDT
- notin
- Posts: 8402
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"Any RS fan that say they'd rather have the revolving door at SS that the RS have had versus Jeter is a LIAR. Even when it was debated who was better Nomar or Jeter it was a toss up. If it were the opposite (Jeter on the RS) RS fans would have picked Jeter"
That's a flat out stupid statement.
I just don't get why fans think its "embarrassing" to have a new shortstop every year. I mean, beyond the message board grief. Toronto was changing SS's as often as Boston, and no one ever mentioned it.
I'll take 25 new playes every year if it keeps producing a winner. And over the last few years, the Red Sox have been the most successful in teams's post WW I history.
If having the same shortstop year in/year out wasa so instrumental in success, why did Ernie Banks never win a World Series?
As for Jeter, there was a time when he was great, but he is in the waing years now. Ditto Posada. And frankly, his ego is holding the team back. A-Rod struggles in the post-season and gets demoted to 7th. But even hinting at dropping Posada and Jeter in the lineup, and the complaints fly...
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 5:28 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
- First: 10/16/2007
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I'm still waiting for the NY fans to respond...
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 5:30 PM EDT
- fivekatz
- Posts: 5134
- First: 9/18/2009
- Last: 8/26/2012
Zac my thoughts are Jeter has had a great career. His fielding percentages improved dramatically (thanks Mark Texieria). There wasn't anyone else at the position in the AL that made people's jaws drop. So some of it certainly is his play relative to the league. But voters don't go to great pain in making these picks. They don't pour through hours of video of each SS in the AL or pour through deep stats as they make the decision. And in that light voting for Derek felt good and felt right.
The argument came up in a very different context. The context was that a team could win with a SS without great range. Few except NYY fans and star struck media types have ever tried to make the case that Jeter was a rangy SS with a cannon arm.
Now OTOH when it comes to winners at SS, fading or not, #2 picture should be in the dictionary under that phrase. So while a stretch his value and relative skill set at SS was submitted as to why a SS with limited range might not hurt a team if he brought enough with him in the rest of his game, But the argument and the participants used Jeter's GG's as a point - counter point to the point the topic got its own life.
Probably 25% of GG's ever handed out did not go to the best defender in the season that they were awarded. So what I say? But at any rate Jeter owes at least the gold little finger on those two gloves to Tex.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 5:49 PM EDT
- carnie
- Posts: 10917
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My opinion is that it's rep. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. As fivekatz said there is no one in the AL at shortstop who makes peoples' jaws drop defensively, and Jeter's body of work is remarkable over his career. I felt differently when Nomar was our shortstop, but Jeter is still playing the toughest defensive position in baseball while Nomar is a talking head on tv. Hopefully when Iglesias comes up for good the GG field at shortstop will look different.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 5:51 PM EDT
- nhsteven
- Posts: 11470
- First: 9/23/2005
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This discussion recurs over & over & over; I should have saved my Jeter assessment, so I could paste it every time. I'm not going to repeat it here in its entirety. Over his career, Jeter is an enigmatic (not necessarily in a bad way) case, with obvious limitations, and with amazingly good attributes which the new fangled fielding metrics truly don't catch. I'm not trying to defend bad range, but according to Jim Leyland, who knows a thing or two, SS range is "overrated" (This actually surprised me, FWIW). Fielding metrics shall continue to evolve; the Jeter metrics is as much a critique on the metrics as it is on Jeter, IMO. (BTW, these metrics would shed a bad light on other great SS's in the past.) I myself, don't believe he should have won the GG in 2010, but he may have arguably deserved it in the past.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 5:55 PM EDT
- nhsteven
- Posts: 11470
- First: 9/23/2005
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
In Response to Re: answer me this : Would this be the picture in that dictionary?
Posted by slomag
I'm not sure what this response had to do with 5katz's post; but I'm pretty sure that if Jeter was a RS all these years, you would have sung his praises.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:03 PM EDT
I'm fine with voting vice uzr or whatever because the cameras and the stats can't really capture the effectiveness of a fielder. If Jeter gets the benefit of the doubt, so be it.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:07 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
- First: 10/16/2007
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I wonder how the other, perhaps more deserving SS's feel. Does it not affect their salaries?
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:16 PM EDT
- nhsteven
- Posts: 11470
- First: 9/23/2005
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
I wonder how the other, perhaps more deserving SS's feel. Does it not affect their salaries?
Posted by harness
I'm not going to cry for them. Last year, I believe Andrus should have won it. This year, so far I like Asdrubal Cabrera of Clev. I can (practically) assure you Jeter won't win it this yr.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:23 PM EDT
- fivekatz
- Posts: 5134
- First: 9/18/2009
- Last: 8/26/2012
In Response to
Re: answer me this:
I wonder how the other, perhaps more deserving SS's feel. Does it not affect their salaries?
Posted by harness
About the same as every other guy who did not get the award for similar reasons or wasn't in all-star game for similar reasons when they have clauses in their contract with incentives for the award. Let's not pretend Derek Jeter is the first guy to ever get an award based on reputation.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:33 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
In Response to Re: answer me this : I'm not going to cry for them. Last year, I believe Andrus should have won it. This year, so far I like Asdrubal Cabrera of Clev. I can (practically) assure you Jeter won't win it this yr.
Posted by nhsteven
Yeah. He looks like a stud - the kind of player you can build around.
Scary to think how good he can get.
I agree on Andres last year. I also think Chavez owes Beltre 3-4 GG's.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:36 PM EDT
- nhsteven
- Posts: 11470
- First: 9/23/2005
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
In Response to Re: answer me this : Yeah. He looks like a stud - the kind of player you can build around. Scary to think how good he can get. I agree on Andres last year. I also think Chavez owes Beltre 3-4 GG's.
Posted by harness
What's scary about Cabrera, is 2B is his natural position, and he's amazing there.
As far as your other comment, errors count for something, and I believe Chavez in his prime was a rangy magnet. (Not that I'm siding with him). I say the best I ever saw were B. Robinson and C. Boyer, with Nettles, Schmidt, Santo and Rolen (and the 2 guys above) not far behind. Amazingly Boggs became pretty good after coming up a butcher. Longoria is not as good as Don Zimmer thinks; Zimmerman is better. D. Wright won a GG, and that was a joke. He has a terrible arm for a 3B, and is error-prone. The marginal player (due to his bat) John Vuckovich was great also.I may have left a few out.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:50 PM EDT
- tom-uk
- Posts: 1902
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Asd. Cabrera UZR / 150 2008, '09, '10, '11 :
-15, -7, -13, -21
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 6:55 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
- First: 10/16/2007
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I like that list Steve. Boyer was great. Brooks was off-the-charts. Mays in CF/Clemente in RF/Yaz in LF in his hey day; doesn't get any better.
Mantle without the injuries goes beyond imagination.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/28/2011 7:00 PM EDT
- nhsteven
- Posts: 11470
- First: 9/23/2005
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
I like that list Steve . Boyer was great. Brooks was off-the-charts. Mays in CF/Clemente in RF/Yaz in LF in his hey day; doesn't get any better. Mantle without the injuries goes beyond imagination.
Posted by harness
I forgot Buddy Bell & Aurelio Rodriguez. Mantle was NOT a natural fielder, and was a little overrated in that regard. IMO, he had more power (& speed early on) then anybody, except maybe Foxx, and (gulp) Kingman. (Of course, a few guys could throw 110 MPH Fastballs that didn't make the majors). I agree with your other picks. 2b is probably Roberto Alomar. SS, Ozzie/Vizq/Tulow/Belang. C, I-Rod. P, Kaat.
