Re: answer me this
posted at 5/29/2011 11:11 AM EDT
- gr82bme
- Posts: 1883
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
And by contrast, Ells gets down the line in 3.9 seconds. Think about that. Jake is one of the fastest players in the game - definitely one of the fastest in RS history. 3.0 seconds is unreal! And to have that kind of raw power that Mantle processed. I forgot about Blair. He was quite good. Piersall was a natural. Among the highest LT fielding pct. But JoeD./TW were the best pure hitters. Mays/Mantle whiffed too much. Just an amazing era of baseball.
Posted by harness
Amos Otis (I think for the Royals) played a heck of a CF too during Blair's time. Light hitting if I recall, but if one went his way, it was out-o-matic.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/29/2011 12:34 PM EDT
- georom4
- Posts: 7385
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Harness, did you just bad-mouth Derek Sanderson? His book I've Got To Be Me is still my all-time fav sports book.
Uncalled for...
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/29/2011 1:20 PM EDT
- soups
- Posts: 3883
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Some of you guys are starting to appear like "crabs in a barrel"; if your team cannot win, you're willing to try to pull other teams' fans down, too.
The Sox have finally taken the lead with some seriously good play, and many of the Yankee fans seem to be upset. So why direct your anger at the Sox? For five years on this board, we have had to deal with NYY hubris from some of the fans; it was never you guys before, so why now? Is it because the Yankees are starting to fade? Some of you guys are stunningly intelligent about this game, and some of you have been driving forces behind keeping this board fresh and fair. Until now. Nowawdays, it's just thread after thread about sh** like this one. Sour freaking grapes.
And I hope I'm way offbase here, because that sucks if it's true. I hope I'm reading this thread wrong. There's an old addage about not judging someone by their successes, but by their failures. The Yankees' fans have no idea what it's like to experience such failure. Now that it's happening, some of the posters who used to be broad-minded about this game have become pretty sad. Watch the posts change if the Yankees start winning.
Sorry to rant, but seriously what is the purpose of stirring up the pot like this? It's not even worth addressing the topic, because it comes across as sad and tearful: "If my Yankees cannnot win the division, I will change my posts to sound more trollish."
And anyway, the beauty of this Sox team is that they could care less about who wins what award. If the Yankee fanbase is limiting itself to winning the personal achievement awards, then they're in for a really tough season as a team. No disrespect intended at all. Some of us Sox fans just always assumed that the Yankee fans who have had the luxury of a lot of celebration, would understand why Sox fans are happy this season.
They're going to dominate this division. Brace yourself.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/29/2011 2:26 PM EDT
Sorry to rant, but seriously what is the purpose of stirring up the pot like this? It's not even worth addressing the topic, because it comes across as sad and tearful: "If my Yankees cannnot win the division, I will change my posts to sound more trollish."
soups
I'm very disappointed in you & obviously U R in me
I don't care if you think i'm a troll
but it bothers me that you would think this was the best I could do
if I wanted to make a trolling thread
this thread came from a conversation started in the ellsbury thread
where harness was asking for nyyfans to respond
my issue was not with RSN as much as
it was with fans in general( including yankee & myself)
saying the GG were all about popularity
we have said it about plenty of players not just jeter
and my point was it couldn't be just that
because both gutierrez & jones didn't win because of popularity
I hope you posted this in the wrong thread
because I don't see what you see
and am kinda of upset
sour grapes ? wth RU talking about
you havn't won anything yet
the sox being on top in may
is what we all expected in march
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/29/2011 5:57 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
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- Last: 10/28/2011
Soups missed the thread meaning. He said he wasn't sure. No biggy.
Geo, I always got a kick out of Sanderson. Had much character. My slant was Pikesque. Derek embodied that team spirit.
On Amos Otis, he was a pretty good hitter. .277 LT but hit .290/.300 5 times with 193 dingers. Hell of a glove and one of the big reasons that team was pretty good.
His three GG's were justified. A 5-time all-star.
Which brings me to another question on this subject matter: Before fans began to get the AS voting process, it was homerism at it's best (in the early stages of allowing fans to vote). Does that not also reflect the tainted GG's process?
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/30/2011 8:41 AM EDT
- gr82bme
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Re: answer me this:
Soups missed the thread meaning. He said he wasn't sure. No biggy. Geo, I always got a kick out of Sanderson. Had much character. My slant was Pikesque . Derek embodied that team spirit. On Amos Otis, he was a pretty good hitter. .277 LT but hit .290/.300 5 times with 193 dingers. Hell of a glove and one of the big reasons that team was pretty good. His three GG's were justified. A 5-time all-star. Which brings me to another question on this subject matter: Before fans began to get the AS voting process, it was homerism at it's best (in the early stages of allowing fans to vote). Does that not also reflect the tainted GG's process?
Posted by harness
Wow, great stats on Otis - my recollection was obviously out for a beer, never realized he was that good with the bat nor did I realize he was a 5-time AS. In my defense, I was pretty young in the early-mid 70's (that's my story, and I'm stickin' to it - LOL :).
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/30/2011 11:02 AM EDT
The classic remark I've heard about Jeter is that "he eats up anything that's hit right at him." Ok, well, that's nice...but isn't that the minimum expectation? Sadly, he fields few balls to either side, especially his right. When he does get to a ball to his right, he usually has to do his "jump throw" which makes the play look spectacular. It's not spectacular though because even an average defensive shortstop would make that look routine. Also, there are a couple iconic plays that he's made in the past that heavily influence the voters.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/30/2011 11:13 AM EDT
In Response to
Re: answer me this:
The classic remark I've heard about Jeter is that "he eats up anything that's hit right at him." Ok, well, that's nice...but isn't that the minimum expectation? Sadly, he fields few balls to either side, especially his right. When he does get to a ball to his right, he usually has to do his "jump throw" which makes the play look spectacular. It's not spectacular though because even an average defensive shortstop would make that look routine. Also, there are a couple iconic plays that he's made in the past that heavily influence the voters.
Posted by redsoxfan791
Including the play in which he could have stopped before diving into the stands for the ball but instead he purposely jumped in to make the play look "iconic". I forget which playoff game that was.
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/30/2011 11:21 AM EDT
- SinceYaz
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Posts: 663
First: 9/26/2010
Last: 5/30/2011 | In Response to www.boston.com/community/forums.html?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3aSportsForum%3a81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion%3abdbca9b0-e78e-42e2-be81-3838ee4eb474&plckFindPostKey=Cat:SportsForum:81df60f3-70ee-4ca3-9336-8cf2c0a8301aDiscussion:bdbca9b0-e78e-42e2-be81-3838ee4eb474Post:ba5a5e51-52e2-4b11-aadc-300a0abb4017">Re: answer me this:
This oughta be good. However, I would have entitled this: Is it right or wrong?
Posted by harness
I think because Jeter is so well respected by players, managers, and fans, he won the GGs on reputation. He probably gets the "he's paid his dues" vote from managers, so if it's between him and a really good younger SS, managers think that eventually the younger SS will get his GG (due) in future years. The sabermaticians have, for a few years now, come to the opinion that his range is pretty bad. Also, he has a human vacuum cleaner at 1st base, so many potential throwing errors get scooped - ergo, no error. Thing is, I watch Sox games and only see opponent SS' a few times a year (outside of the east). We certainly don't have a GG'er, I don't think Toronto's, O's, or Rays' SS are any better than Jeter. May be beside the point anyway - other than the Ozzie's of the world, most folks don't get in the HOF based on D - if they did, Dewey would have gotten far more consideration - and Jeter's going in on his bat/leadership of an oft-champion. |
...about as solid an answer as one could give...
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/31/2011 8:40 AM EDT
greetings BT
Hey Zac,
Not sure why this guy/gal chose this forum to try to put us all in our place and right all that is wrong with the dicoarse between our respective fan bases...trust me there's plenty of other threads where his rant would be appropriete, but like all those that chose to "teach us" the proper way to chat on line and share opinions his will only bring out the trolls
...
yup, but i'm still dessaponted in soups post
I thought he knew me better than that
untils SPC post, there wasn't any pissing contest and some pretty good inputBack to the topic....Guiterez and Jones both won because the guy that owned the award (Torri Hunter) was injured and then moved to RF,where another perenial GG'r Ichiro owns the rights to the award...
very well could be
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/31/2011 8:55 AM EDT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVfKOlZ3UJwanyone remember where SoxPatsCelts1988 favorite
SS was at the time
hint
worse than posada
In Response to
Re: answer me this:
In Response to Re: answer me this : Including the play in which he could have stopped before diving into the stands for the ball but instead he purposely jumped in to make the play look "iconic". I forget which playoff game that was.
Posted by SoxPatsCelts1988
those games felt like POG
but it wasn't a play off game
I know what you mean though , kinda like
Re: answer me this
posted at 5/31/2011 8:42 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
- First: 10/16/2007
- Last: 10/28/2011
Direct hit, ZAC.
Jeter has guts. Nobody can deny that.
Getting back to the subject matter, which is the validity of GG's and how justified it is to see Jeter get them year after year, what would you summarize from the NY feedback, including your own?
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 1:06 AM EDT
- Joebreidey
- Posts: 13516
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 5/19/2013
my only stipulation is
that the same reasons fits for
Franklin Gutierrez & Adam Jones & Jeter
I suggest the mgr's and coaches appreciate the guy who
makes the simple plays in the big spots every time
more than a lot of fans do
The problem with your logic is that-
A-You assume that because they get one fielder right, they have automatically gotten all fielders right. They voted without paying a lot of attention. Just becauswe some of the fielders they voted for are correct doesn't mean all the fielders they voted for are correct.
B-You're assuming Jeter is legit because Jones is legit, but according to the Fielding Bible, Jones is not legit. Jones finished 16th among CFs in their voting last year. 21st in 2009.
In the end, it makes no difference. Andrus gets to > 100 extra balls, boots 10 extra balls, recording 100 extra outs. FWIW, I never dropped a fly ball. I just never got to nearly as many as other people did. The idea that I had less errors was completely meaningless.
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 8:06 AM EDT
- cpjohn1
- Posts: 3339
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In Response to
Re: answer me this:
the answer to your question seems easy..Its a popularity contest..Once you win a couple, it seems they just keep giving them to you..Thats just my view on it..Some MIGHT deserve it, but some deserve it more.
Posted by southpaw777
This is my take as well.
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 8:26 AM EDT
A-You assume that because they get one fielder right, they have automatically gotten all fielders right. They voted without paying a lot of attention. Just becauswe some of the fielders they voted for are correct doesn't mean all the fielders they voted for are correct.
this wasn't all about being correct
it was about fans saying it was all about being a popularity contest
B-You're assuming Jeter is legit because Jones is legit, but according to the Fielding Bible, Jones is not legit. Jones finished 16th among CFs in their voting last year. 21st in 2009.
jones was brought up to show
it clearly isn't all about a popularity contest
Fielding Bible? lol JB,
at least that's what i think the mgrs & coaches would say to you
the good news 4 stats geeks is the writers finally looked at a few more stats and got the
cy young right
In the end, it makes no difference. Andrus gets to > 100 extra balls, boots 10 extra balls, recording 100 extra outs
actually I think that's 90 extra outs JB
The idea that I had less errors was completely meaningless.
harness and others agree
I'll take mr sure handed myself
then again maybe it doesn't matter all that much
andrus has 3 times the errors of jeter
and both teams are in 1P
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 9:31 AM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8423
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 5/20/2013
zac, whether it's fielding range measures or catcher's ERA, the same problem exists-lack of event-based data...
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 9:48 AM EDT
greetings Hfxsoxnut
zac, whether it's fielding range measures or catcher's ERA, the same problem exists-lack of event-based data...
-lack of event-based data...?
I have no idea what that means my friend
but I like it
I like it even better if it upsets a few stat geeks
not that I have anything against them
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 10:30 AM EDT
In Response to
Re: answer me this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVfKOlZ3UJw anyone remember where SoxPatsCelts1988 favorite SS was at the time hint worse than posada In Response to Re: answer me this : those games felt like POG but it wasn't a play off game I know what you mean though , kinda like
Posted by pinstripezac32
spc didn't have a favorite SS at the time. He only joined the pink hat brigade after the sawx won in '04 and didn't know what baseball was before then.
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 10:31 AM EDT
In Response to
Re: answer me this:
Some of you guys are starting to appear like "crabs in a barrel"; if your team cannot win, you're willing to try to pull other teams' fans down, too. The Sox have finally taken the lead with some seriously good play, and many of the Yankee fans seem to be upset. So why direct your anger at the Sox? For five years on this board, we have had to deal with NYY hubris from some of the fans; it was never you guys before, so why now? Is it because the Yankees are starting to fade? Some of you guys are stunningly intelligent about this game, and some of you have been driving forces behind keeping this board fresh and fair. Until now. Nowawdays, it's just thread after thread about sh** like this one. Sour freaking grapes. And I hope I'm way offbase here, because that sucks if it's true. I hope I'm reading this thread wrong. There's an old addage about not judging someone by their successes, but by their failures. The Yankees' fans have no idea what it's like to experience such failure. Now that it's happening, some of the posters who used to be broad-minded about this game have become pretty sad. Watch the posts change if the Yankees start winning. Sorry to rant, but seriously what is the purpose of stirring up the pot like this? It's not even worth addressing the topic, because it comes across as sad and tearful: "If my Yankees cannnot win the division, I will change my posts to sound more trollish." And anyway, the beauty of this Sox team is that they could care less about who wins what award. If the Yankee fanbase is limiting itself to winning the personal achievement awards, then they're in for a really tough season as a team. No disrespect intended at all. Some of us Sox fans just always assumed that the Yankee fans who have had the luxury of a lot of celebration, would understand why Sox fans are happy this season.
They're going to dominate this division. Brace yourself.
Posted by soups
LOL....how's that working out for you?
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 4:01 PM EDT
- Hfxsoxnut
- Posts: 8423
- First: 5/30/2008
- Last: 5/20/2013
In Response to
Re: answer me this:
greetings Hfxsoxnut zac, whether it's fielding range measures or catcher's ERA, the same problem exists-lack of event-based data... -lack of event-based data...? I have no idea what that means my friend but I like it I like it even better if it upsets a few stat geeks not that I have anything against them
Posted by pinstripezac32
I might not be phrasing it right but what I mean is, the actual records of the actual plays that the range measurement guys are saying Derek should have made but didn't, that type of thing...
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 5:17 PM EDT
- harness
- Posts: 19880
- First: 10/16/2007
- Last: 10/28/2011
I don't know. If I was to attempt to dive into the stands like that, I think I'd have knocked my scrotum loose!
What this really comes down to is questioning the criteria based on 'awarding' GG's. Range vs. errors. Popular vs. 'unproven'.
Re: answer me this
posted at 6/1/2011 7:22 PM EDT
Hfxsoxnut '' whether it's fielding range measures or catcher's ERA, the same problem exists-lack of event-based data..
'' I might not be phrasing it right but what I mean is, the actual records of the actual plays that the range measurement guys are saying Derek should have made but didn't, that type of thing... ''
I hear you now
it's been over 24 hrs since I heard about the last
SI over rated poll
I can't believe there are zero threads about it
