Any day now

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    Re: Any day now

    Yes Drew will not pass Iggyin batting average, we really got Duped huh?

     
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    Re: Any day now

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Iglesias is now batting .320.   Drew is at .246.  The people who predicted that Drew would soon pass Iglesias up are now reduced to saying that batting average does not matter. Also, the 74 point difference also probably represents the number of plays that Drew has not made that Iglesias would have. 



    Post OPS and there averages since the trade. Quit Cherry picking.

     
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    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to notin's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to S5's comment:

     


    Without reposting everything....

    I truly feel that everything in my earlier posts is, as they say, as plain as the nose on one's face.  In the long run the trade of Iggy is going to cost the Sox both an elite defensive SS AND it's a nail in the coffin in the Ellsbury deal as there's going to be less money to spend on him.

     

    I see this year's team built on speed and defense, two things I very much like.  Apparently these aren't as important to you (and the FO) as they are to me.  I don't understand that viewpoint because of where s & d have gotten us this year, but that's ok. 

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

    [/QUOTE]


    You seem to like conspiracy theories.  A couple weeks ago, it was all about a giant plot to get rid of Iglesias, who, and I quote, double-crossed the team by hitting.  Today, it's a “Corporate America vs. the Little Guy” mentality. 

     

    Undoubtedly the Sox ownership group is primarily concerned with money.  However, that does not necessarily create a conflict of interest.  The easiest way to make more money in baseball is to win.   Maybe it is all business for the FO, but their “business passion” has also brought about the most successful and winningest era in Red Sox history since before World War !.   Why do you question their motives?  Is it because it is an easy copout when they do things you do not like?  If so, you are not alone.

     

    What this deal comes down to, like it or not, is the Sox FO having a completely different opinion about Iglesias as the fans do.  We have seen this before, as this attitude was rampant this off-season with numerous fans hating the Victorino signing, the Gomes signing, the Napoli signing, the Drew signing etc.  The gripes then were that the FO only cared about saving money, and not about putting the best team on the field.  Well, guess what happened?  They did put the best team on the field.  It seems as though they might actually know what they are doing when it comes to this sort of thing.

     

    Now their latest polarizing move is Iglesias, and in spite of a really good track record for recent success, and in spite of turning around a disastrous 2011 team / season in ONE YEAR, suddenly, I see a lot of fans who know more about how to build, run and manage a team than the people who have this franchise in first place.  You can argue for speed and defense, and accuse others of not getting their importance.  And they can come back to you and ask if you understand the importance of pitching. Or ask you how exactly you are evaluating defense.

     

    The Sox “speed and defense”, by the way, was not centered on Iglesias.  For all the ravings about his D at shortstop, what is overlooked a lot is that he was not actually playing SS.  And we have a guy at shortstop that is actually playing well, despite his committing the Cardinal sins of being over 30 and a blood relative of JD Drew.  The Sox also have a 3B who they feel is part of the future and likes proving me wrong.  (60K/9BB before his demotion, 20K/10BB since.  Liking that change, Brooks!)  They have a young SS they might actually think can play SS.  Or, if he goes to 3B and Middlebrooks to 1B, might open the door for the return of Drew, who is the same age as Ellsbury and less likely to demand a contract that makes him among the highest paid players in the game and lasts a ridiculous amount of years.  The nail in the coffin for Elslbuy has nothing to do with spending $10mill on a shortstop / 1B / whatever.  That nail came into play when he hired Boras.  And fans preaching about Iglesias for the next “10 or 15” years need a reality check.  He can hire Boras at any point and be gone in 5 years.  THAT is baseball today. We attack FO dedication, but forget it was the players who killed loyalty, for good or bad.   Curt Flood was not an owner or an agent.

     

    I was a really big fan of Iglesias, too.  I wanted him starting in 2012 over Aviles (who did a surprisingly good job, for the record).  But people who know a lot more than me felt this was a better direction.   Sometimes fans do need to step back, and understand that the people running the show DO know more than they do.  Sometimes, the most important thing to know is how much you don’t know.  It can be tough to admit, and access to hundreds of internet sites filled with opinions of people equally clueless as the rest of us can cloud this fact.  But it is a fact.  That article about Gabe Kapler detailing his complete surprise about how decisions were made and strategies changed with studies was an eye opener to how little some insiders know about what is going on and why decisions are made, and that is not even counting economic factors.  If Kapler, a really bright guy and former player and minor league manager, can admit he was clueless, why are all the outsiders so confident that they know what goes on and why it is wrong?

     

    I’m not preaching blind acceptance.  What I am preaching is to stop blindly accepting our own opinions, and desperately trying to defend them, sometimes in the face of extremely obvious realities that have proven them wrong.  The Saber-Revolution has changed not only how the game is played, but also how it is run, and these decisions transcend sweeping generalities like “we need speed and defense.”

     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

     

    Ugh.  you said Peavey was "not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy. "

    So the implication is that Peavey is not better than Workman. 

    If you want to back off from that I am fine.

    A pitcher starting an entire game in the playoffs vesus a SS making one play in the hole? Come on.

     

     



    It wasn't my intent to imply that at all.  It was only a statement of fact that Peavy was 3-1 in 7 starts, which wasn't much better than what Farrel had been cobbling together.  Again, please don't read any more into that than what was said.  I actually LIKE having Peavy for this stretch run.  And I also LIKE having Drew @ SS.

     

     

    And there's about as much chance of Workman starting a 7th game of the WS as there is of Iggy being at SS and being in that situation.  Smile




    There is not much more to read into than a statement that Peavy was an unnecessary acquisition.  

     

     

    While you did make an argument that no one, including you apparently, takes seriously.  At least you did not go out of your way to get anything more than the most meaningless of all statistics to offer as support   :)

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to notin's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to S5's comment:

     

     


    Without reposting everything....

    I truly feel that everything in my earlier posts is, as they say, as plain as the nose on one's face.  In the long run the trade of Iggy is going to cost the Sox both an elite defensive SS AND it's a nail in the coffin in the Ellsbury deal as there's going to be less money to spend on him.

     

     

    I see this year's team built on speed and defense, two things I very much like.  Apparently these aren't as important to you (and the FO) as they are to me.  I don't understand that viewpoint because of where s & d have gotten us this year, but that's ok. 

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    You seem to like conspiracy theories.  A couple weeks ago, it was all about a giant plot to get rid of Iglesias, who, and I quote, double-crossed the team by hitting.  Today, it's a “Corporate America vs. the Little Guy” mentality. 

     

    Undoubtedly the Sox ownership group is primarily concerned with money.  However, that does not necessarily create a conflict of interest.  The easiest way to make more money in baseball is to win.   Maybe it is all business for the FO, but their “business passion” has also brought about the most successful and winningest era in Red Sox history since before World War !.   Why do you question their motives?  Is it because it is an easy copout when they do things you do not like?  If so, you are not alone.

     

    What this deal comes down to, like it or not, is the Sox FO having a completely different opinion about Iglesias as the fans do.  We have seen this before, as this attitude was rampant this off-season with numerous fans hating the Victorino signing, the Gomes signing, the Napoli signing, the Drew signing etc.  The gripes then were that the FO only cared about saving money, and not about putting the best team on the field.  Well, guess what happened?  They did put the best team on the field.  It seems as though they might actually know what they are doing when it comes to this sort of thing.

     

    Now their latest polarizing move is Iglesias, and in spite of a really good track record for recent success, and in spite of turning around a disastrous 2011 team / season in ONE YEAR, suddenly, I see a lot of fans who know more about how to build, run and manage a team than the people who have this franchise in first place.  You can argue for speed and defense, and accuse others of not getting their importance.  And they can come back to you and ask if you understand the importance of pitching. Or ask you how exactly you are evaluating defense.

     

    The Sox “speed and defense”, by the way, was not centered on Iglesias.  For all the ravings about his D at shortstop, what is overlooked a lot is that he was not actually playing SS.  And we have a guy at shortstop that is actually playing well, despite his committing the Cardinal sins of being over 30 and a blood relative of JD Drew.  The Sox also have a 3B who they feel is part of the future and likes proving me wrong.  (60K/9BB before his demotion, 20K/10BB since.  Liking that change, Brooks!)  They have a young SS they might actually think can play SS.  Or, if he goes to 3B and Middlebrooks to 1B, might open the door for the return of Drew, who is the same age as Ellsbury and less likely to demand a contract that makes him among the highest paid players in the game and lasts a ridiculous amount of years.  The nail in the coffin for Elslbuy has nothing to do with spending $10mill on a shortstop / 1B / whatever.  That nail came into play when he hired Boras.  And fans preaching about Iglesias for the next “10 or 15” years need a reality check.  He can hire Boras at any point and be gone in 5 years.  THAT is baseball today. We attack FO dedication, but forget it was the players who killed loyalty, for good or bad.   Curt Flood was not an owner or an agent.

     

    I was a really big fan of Iglesias, too.  I wanted him starting in 2012 over Aviles (who did a surprisingly good job, for the record).  But people who know a lot more than me felt this was a better direction.   Sometimes fans do need to step back, and understand that the people running the show DO know more than they do.  Sometimes, the most important thing to know is how much you don’t know.  It can be tough to admit, and access to hundreds of internet sites filled with opinions of people equally clueless as the rest of us can cloud this fact.  But it is a fact.  That article about Gabe Kapler detailing his complete surprise about how decisions were made and strategies changed with studies was an eye opener to how little some insiders know about what is going on and why decisions are made, and that is not even counting economic factors.  If Kapler, a really bright guy and former player and minor league manager, can admit he was clueless, why are all the outsiders so confident that they know what goes on and why it is wrong?

     

    I’m not preaching blind acceptance.  What I am preaching is to stop blindly accepting our own opinions, and desperately trying to defend them, sometimes in the face of extremely obvious realities that have proven them wrong.  The Saber-Revolution has changed not only how the game is played, but also how it is run, and these decisions transcend sweeping generalities like “we need speed and defense.”

     

    [/QUOTE]
     
    I'd love to be a fly on the wall and hear what was being discussed during the Peavy-Iggy trade decision.

    I was critical of all but the Gomes and Uehara signings last winter, bit I have to hand it to Ben. Only the Dempster signing looks like a bust (for the money). Yeah, I'd rather have Melancon than Hanrahan, but since the Dodger trade, Ben has done a marvelous job at building a winner now and keeping the future intact.

    If we end up getting comp pick for Ellsbury, Napoli and Drew, our extended future should be much better on paper, and the money available to spend up to the luxury tax limit should be close to $30-35M. Enough to capably fill 2-3 holes and allow the kids to fight over the rest of the openings.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:
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    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to S5's comment:

     

     


    Without reposting everything....

    I truly feel that everything in my earlier posts is, as they say, as plain as the nose on one's face.  In the long run the trade of Iggy is going to cost the Sox both an elite defensive SS AND it's a nail in the coffin in the Ellsbury deal as there's going to be less money to spend on him.

     

     

    I see this year's team built on speed and defense, two things I very much like.  Apparently these aren't as important to you (and the FO) as they are to me.  I don't understand that viewpoint because of where s & d have gotten us this year, but that's ok. 

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

    You seem to like conspiracy theories.  A couple weeks ago, it was all about a giant plot to get rid of Iglesias, who, and I quote, double-crossed the team by hitting.  Today, it's a “Corporate America vs. the Little Guy” mentality. 

     

    Undoubtedly the Sox ownership group is primarily concerned with money.  However, that does not necessarily create a conflict of interest.  The easiest way to make more money in baseball is to win.   Maybe it is all business for the FO, but their “business passion” has also brought about the most successful and winningest era in Red Sox history since before World War !.   Why do you question their motives?  Is it because it is an easy copout when they do things you do not like?  If so, you are not alone.

     

    What this deal comes down to, like it or not, is the Sox FO having a completely different opinion about Iglesias as the fans do.  We have seen this before, as this attitude was rampant this off-season with numerous fans hating the Victorino signing, the Gomes signing, the Napoli signing, the Drew signing etc.  The gripes then were that the FO only cared about saving money, and not about putting the best team on the field.  Well, guess what happened?  They did put the best team on the field.  It seems as though they might actually know what they are doing when it comes to this sort of thing.

     

    Now their latest polarizing move is Iglesias, and in spite of a really good track record for recent success, and in spite of turning around a disastrous 2011 team / season in ONE YEAR, suddenly, I see a lot of fans who know more about how to build, run and manage a team than the people who have this franchise in first place.  You can argue for speed and defense, and accuse others of not getting their importance.  And they can come back to you and ask if you understand the importance of pitching. Or ask you how exactly you are evaluating defense.

     

    The Sox “speed and defense”, by the way, was not centered on Iglesias.  For all the ravings about his D at shortstop, what is overlooked a lot is that he was not actually playing SS.  And we have a guy at shortstop that is actually playing well, despite his committing the Cardinal sins of being over 30 and a blood relative of JD Drew.  The Sox also have a 3B who they feel is part of the future and likes proving me wrong.  (60K/9BB before his demotion, 20K/10BB since.  Liking that change, Brooks!)  They have a young SS they might actually think can play SS.  Or, if he goes to 3B and Middlebrooks to 1B, might open the door for the return of Drew, who is the same age as Ellsbury and less likely to demand a contract that makes him among the highest paid players in the game and lasts a ridiculous amount of years.  The nail in the coffin for Elslbuy has nothing to do with spending $10mill on a shortstop / 1B / whatever.  That nail came into play when he hired Boras.  And fans preaching about Iglesias for the next “10 or 15” years need a reality check.  He can hire Boras at any point and be gone in 5 years.  THAT is baseball today. We attack FO dedication, but forget it was the players who killed loyalty, for good or bad.   Curt Flood was not an owner or an agent.

     

    I was a really big fan of Iglesias, too.  I wanted him starting in 2012 over Aviles (who did a surprisingly good job, for the record).  But people who know a lot more than me felt this was a better direction.   Sometimes fans do need to step back, and understand that the people running the show DO know more than they do.  Sometimes, the most important thing to know is how much you don’t know.  It can be tough to admit, and access to hundreds of internet sites filled with opinions of people equally clueless as the rest of us can cloud this fact.  But it is a fact.  That article about Gabe Kapler detailing his complete surprise about how decisions were made and strategies changed with studies was an eye opener to how little some insiders know about what is going on and why decisions are made, and that is not even counting economic factors.  If Kapler, a really bright guy and former player and minor league manager, can admit he was clueless, why are all the outsiders so confident that they know what goes on and why it is wrong?

     

    I’m not preaching blind acceptance.  What I am preaching is to stop blindly accepting our own opinions, and desperately trying to defend them, sometimes in the face of extremely obvious realities that have proven them wrong.  The Saber-Revolution has changed not only how the game is played, but also how it is run, and these decisions transcend sweeping generalities like “we need speed and defense.”

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If verbosity is the deciding factor in a discussion, you win, hands down.

    This discussion has now degenerated into nit-picking about things like whether a team's goal is to make money and whether or not speed and defense are a good thing. 

    I respect your opinion and your right to it.

     
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    Re: Any day now

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    In response to notin's comment:
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    In response to S5's comment:

     

     

     


    Without reposting everything....

    I truly feel that everything in my earlier posts is, as they say, as plain as the nose on one's face.  In the long run the trade of Iggy is going to cost the Sox both an elite defensive SS AND it's a nail in the coffin in the Ellsbury deal as there's going to be less money to spend on him.

     

     

     

    I see this year's team built on speed and defense, two things I very much like.  Apparently these aren't as important to you (and the FO) as they are to me.  I don't understand that viewpoint because of where s & d have gotten us this year, but that's ok. 

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


     

     

    You seem to like conspiracy theories.  A couple weeks ago, it was all about a giant plot to get rid of Iglesias, who, and I quote, double-crossed the team by hitting.  Today, it's a “Corporate America vs. the Little Guy” mentality. 

     

    Undoubtedly the Sox ownership group is primarily concerned with money.  However, that does not necessarily create a conflict of interest.  The easiest way to make more money in baseball is to win.   Maybe it is all business for the FO, but their “business passion” has also brought about the most successful and winningest era in Red Sox history since before World War !.   Why do you question their motives?  Is it because it is an easy copout when they do things you do not like?  If so, you are not alone.

     

    What this deal comes down to, like it or not, is the Sox FO having a completely different opinion about Iglesias as the fans do.  We have seen this before, as this attitude was rampant this off-season with numerous fans hating the Victorino signing, the Gomes signing, the Napoli signing, the Drew signing etc.  The gripes then were that the FO only cared about saving money, and not about putting the best team on the field.  Well, guess what happened?  They did put the best team on the field.  It seems as though they might actually know what they are doing when it comes to this sort of thing.

     

    Now their latest polarizing move is Iglesias, and in spite of a really good track record for recent success, and in spite of turning around a disastrous 2011 team / season in ONE YEAR, suddenly, I see a lot of fans who know more about how to build, run and manage a team than the people who have this franchise in first place.  You can argue for speed and defense, and accuse others of not getting their importance.  And they can come back to you and ask if you understand the importance of pitching. Or ask you how exactly you are evaluating defense.

     

    The Sox “speed and defense”, by the way, was not centered on Iglesias.  For all the ravings about his D at shortstop, what is overlooked a lot is that he was not actually playing SS.  And we have a guy at shortstop that is actually playing well, despite his committing the Cardinal sins of being over 30 and a blood relative of JD Drew.  The Sox also have a 3B who they feel is part of the future and likes proving me wrong.  (60K/9BB before his demotion, 20K/10BB since.  Liking that change, Brooks!)  They have a young SS they might actually think can play SS.  Or, if he goes to 3B and Middlebrooks to 1B, might open the door for the return of Drew, who is the same age as Ellsbury and less likely to demand a contract that makes him among the highest paid players in the game and lasts a ridiculous amount of years.  The nail in the coffin for Elslbuy has nothing to do with spending $10mill on a shortstop / 1B / whatever.  That nail came into play when he hired Boras.  And fans preaching about Iglesias for the next “10 or 15” years need a reality check.  He can hire Boras at any point and be gone in 5 years.  THAT is baseball today. We attack FO dedication, but forget it was the players who killed loyalty, for good or bad.   Curt Flood was not an owner or an agent.

     

    I was a really big fan of Iglesias, too.  I wanted him starting in 2012 over Aviles (who did a surprisingly good job, for the record).  But people who know a lot more than me felt this was a better direction.   Sometimes fans do need to step back, and understand that the people running the show DO know more than they do.  Sometimes, the most important thing to know is how much you don’t know.  It can be tough to admit, and access to hundreds of internet sites filled with opinions of people equally clueless as the rest of us can cloud this fact.  But it is a fact.  That article about Gabe Kapler detailing his complete surprise about how decisions were made and strategies changed with studies was an eye opener to how little some insiders know about what is going on and why decisions are made, and that is not even counting economic factors.  If Kapler, a really bright guy and former player and minor league manager, can admit he was clueless, why are all the outsiders so confident that they know what goes on and why it is wrong?

     

    I’m not preaching blind acceptance.  What I am preaching is to stop blindly accepting our own opinions, and desperately trying to defend them, sometimes in the face of extremely obvious realities that have proven them wrong.  The Saber-Revolution has changed not only how the game is played, but also how it is run, and these decisions transcend sweeping generalities like “we need speed and defense.”

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If verbosity is the deciding factor in a discussion, you win, hands down.

     

    This discussion has now degenerated into nit-picking about things like whether a team's goal is to make money and whether or not speed and defense are a good thing. 

    I respect your opinion and your right to it.

    [/QUOTE]

     

    No it has not.  Not even close.  Did you read the post?

    Nowhere in my post did I discuss a single pro or con of defense and speed.  And I acknowledged their goal is probably to make money.  I would be surprised if it was anything else.  However, there are two ways a team can make money in MLB.  One is to put a winning product on the field.  The other is to put an incredibly cheap product on the field.  The latter is why the Marlins are year in/year out, one of the most profitable franchises in MLB.  As the Sox are annually among the top spenders in the league, which path to make money are they obviously pursuing?

    The discussion in my post  was more about outsider fans like us acknowledging that these kind of decisions are made well outside the realm of knowledge we have access to.  You have thrown around your ideas about why this deal was made.  First, in the “I still don’t like this trade” (or whatever) thread, you proposed to entire deal was a massive conspiracy to clear the path for Bogaerts, and the only reason Iglesias ever played at all was to prove his inability to the fanbase.  Now you are proposing that somehow by moving Iglesias and improving a sliding pitching staff in order to upgrade for a post-season run earlier than you wanted, that this entire trade was done solely to make money and trying to win had nothing to do with it.  The irony with your latter conspiracy is that the team clearly makes more money by NOT taking Peavy’s contract, and it positions them as a better chance at winning this year as well.

    What I threw back at you was that these kind of decisions are made with way more knowledge than any of us realize.  There is nothing wrong with liking speed and defense.  But is that a winning formula?  How many studies have you read on the impact of shortstop defense on a game?  Or a season? I’ve never read one, and I bet you never have either.  And that is OK, as it is not our job.  But I bet Cherington has read one or two.  I bet others on his staff have as well.  Heck, Bill James probably wrote one.  We both liked Iglesias Eye Candy Defense.  But the difference to me looks like, I am willing to acknowledge this was taken into consideration.  I look at things like, Iglesias RF/9 ( not my favorite defensive metric) is 0.3 greater than Drew’s.  Maybe the FO sees this, and thinks “Iglesias gets to one more groundball every 3 days than Drew.  His BABIP is completely unsustainable for a guy with an 18% line drive rate, 52% ground ball rate, the highest Infield Fly Ball Rate in MLB over the last 2 years, and who strikes out 3.5 times for every walk.   Therefore, per our studies, his defensive advantage is going to be negated by his offensive shortcoming.”  Or something like that.  It was probably a lot more complicated, but you get the idea.  (If you are still reading.)

    It also looks to me like you saw a player you liked, got upset he was dealt, and decided that the only possible reason was the priorities of the Red Sox had to be different that yours, and there were no other possibilities.

    I don’t see how that evolved into a discussion about the merits of speed and defense.   I was trying to turn it into a discussion about how these decisions are made with way more knowledge than we use.  Sort of like the discussion about minor league stats vs. scouting in the “Middlebrooks 1st Season” thread

     
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    Re: Any day now

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

     

    Iglesias is now batting .320.   Drew is at .246.  The people who predicted that Drew would soon pass Iglesias up are now reduced to saying that batting average does not matter. Also, the 74 point difference also probably represents the number of plays that Drew has not made that Iglesias would have. 

     

     



    Post OPS and there averages since the trade. Quit Cherry picking.

     

     

     




      That is one of the funniest posts yet.  I give you the season to date averages. You want to go by since the trade. And , you say I am "cherry picking."  The full season stats are " cherry picking " ?    Hilarious.   Just for the record, the up to date OPS are ;  Iglesias .770 ---- Drew .754.  That is for the full season to date also.

     

     
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    Re: Any day now

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    Without reposting everything....

    I truly feel that everything in my earlier posts is, as they say, as plain as the nose on one's face.  In the long run the trade of Iggy is going to cost the Sox both an elite defensive SS AND it's a nail in the coffin in the Ellsbury deal as there's going to be less money to spend on him.

     

     

     

     

    I see this year's team built on speed and defense, two things I very much like.  Apparently these aren't as important to you (and the FO) as they are to me.  I don't understand that viewpoint because of where s & d have gotten us this year, but that's ok. 

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

     

     

     

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    You seem to like conspiracy theories.  A couple weeks ago, it was all about a giant plot to get rid of Iglesias, who, and I quote, double-crossed the team by hitting.  Today, it's a “Corporate America vs. the Little Guy” mentality. 

     

    Undoubtedly the Sox ownership group is primarily concerned with money.  However, that does not necessarily create a conflict of interest.  The easiest way to make more money in baseball is to win.   Maybe it is all business for the FO, but their “business passion” has also brought about the most successful and winningest era in Red Sox history since before World War !.   Why do you question their motives?  Is it because it is an easy copout when they do things you do not like?  If so, you are not alone.

     

    What this deal comes down to, like it or not, is the Sox FO having a completely different opinion about Iglesias as the fans do.  We have seen this before, as this attitude was rampant this off-season with numerous fans hating the Victorino signing, the Gomes signing, the Napoli signing, the Drew signing etc.  The gripes then were that the FO only cared about saving money, and not about putting the best team on the field.  Well, guess what happened?  They did put the best team on the field.  It seems as though they might actually know what they are doing when it comes to this sort of thing.

     

    Now their latest polarizing move is Iglesias, and in spite of a really good track record for recent success, and in spite of turning around a disastrous 2011 team / season in ONE YEAR, suddenly, I see a lot of fans who know more about how to build, run and manage a team than the people who have this franchise in first place.  You can argue for speed and defense, and accuse others of not getting their importance.  And they can come back to you and ask if you understand the importance of pitching. Or ask you how exactly you are evaluating defense.

     

    The Sox “speed and defense”, by the way, was not centered on Iglesias.  For all the ravings about his D at shortstop, what is overlooked a lot is that he was not actually playing SS.  And we have a guy at shortstop that is actually playing well, despite his committing the Cardinal sins of being over 30 and a blood relative of JD Drew.  The Sox also have a 3B who they feel is part of the future and likes proving me wrong.  (60K/9BB before his demotion, 20K/10BB since.  Liking that change, Brooks!)  They have a young SS they might actually think can play SS.  Or, if he goes to 3B and Middlebrooks to 1B, might open the door for the return of Drew, who is the same age as Ellsbury and less likely to demand a contract that makes him among the highest paid players in the game and lasts a ridiculous amount of years.  The nail in the coffin for Elslbuy has nothing to do with spending $10mill on a shortstop / 1B / whatever.  That nail came into play when he hired Boras.  And fans preaching about Iglesias for the next “10 or 15” years need a reality check.  He can hire Boras at any point and be gone in 5 years.  THAT is baseball today. We attack FO dedication, but forget it was the players who killed loyalty, for good or bad.   Curt Flood was not an owner or an agent.

     

    I was a really big fan of Iglesias, too.  I wanted him starting in 2012 over Aviles (who did a surprisingly good job, for the record).  But people who know a lot more than me felt this was a better direction.   Sometimes fans do need to step back, and understand that the people running the show DO know more than they do.  Sometimes, the most important thing to know is how much you don’t know.  It can be tough to admit, and access to hundreds of internet sites filled with opinions of people equally clueless as the rest of us can cloud this fact.  But it is a fact.  That article about Gabe Kapler detailing his complete surprise about how decisions were made and strategies changed with studies was an eye opener to how little some insiders know about what is going on and why decisions are made, and that is not even counting economic factors.  If Kapler, a really bright guy and former player and minor league manager, can admit he was clueless, why are all the outsiders so confident that they know what goes on and why it is wrong?

     

    I’m not preaching blind acceptance.  What I am preaching is to stop blindly accepting our own opinions, and desperately trying to defend them, sometimes in the face of extremely obvious realities that have proven them wrong.  The Saber-Revolution has changed not only how the game is played, but also how it is run, and these decisions transcend sweeping generalities like “we need speed and defense.”

     

     

     

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    If verbosity is the deciding factor in a discussion, you win, hands down.

     

     

    This discussion has now degenerated into nit-picking about things like whether a team's goal is to make money and whether or not speed and defense are a good thing. 

    I respect your opinion and your right to it.

     

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    No it has not.  Not even close.  Did you read the post?

    Nowhere in my post did I discuss a single pro or con of defense and speed.  And I acknowledged their goal is probably to make money.  I would be surprised if it was anything else.  However, there are two ways a team can make money in MLB.  One is to put a winning product on the field.  The other is to put an incredibly cheap product on the field.  The latter is why the Marlins are year in/year out, one of the most profitable franchises in MLB.  As the Sox are annually among the top spenders in the league, which path to make money are they obviously pursuing?

    The discussion in my post  was more about outsider fans like us acknowledging that these kind of decisions are made well outside the realm of knowledge we have access to.  You have thrown around your ideas about why this deal was made.  First, in the “I still don’t like this trade” (or whatever) thread, you proposed to entire deal was a massive conspiracy to clear the path for Bogaerts, and the only reason Iglesias ever played at all was to prove his inability to the fanbase.  Now you are proposing that somehow by moving Iglesias and improving a sliding pitching staff in order to upgrade for a post-season run earlier than you wanted, that this entire trade was done solely to make money and trying to win had nothing to do with it.  The irony with your latter conspiracy is that the team clearly makes more money by NOT taking Peavy’s contract, and it positions them as a better chance at winning this year as well.

    What I threw back at you was that these kind of decisions are made with way more knowledge than any of us realize.  There is nothing wrong with liking speed and defense.  But is that a winning formula?  How many studies have you read on the impact of shortstop defense on a game?  Or a season? I’ve never read one, and I bet you never have either.  And that is OK, as it is not our job.  But I bet Cherington has read one or two.  I bet others on his staff have as well.  Heck, Bill James probably wrote one.  We both liked Iglesias Eye Candy Defense.  But the difference to me looks like, I am willing to acknowledge this was taken into consideration.  I look at things like, Iglesias RF/9 ( not my favorite defensive metric) is 0.3 greater than Drew’s.  Maybe the FO sees this, and thinks “Iglesias gets to one more groundball every 3 days than Drew.  His BABIP is completely unsustainable for a guy with an 18% line drive rate, 52% ground ball rate, the highest Infield Fly Ball Rate in MLB over the last 2 years, and who strikes out 3.5 times for every walk.   Therefore, per our studies, his defensive advantage is going to be negated by his offensive shortcoming.”  Or something like that.  It was probably a lot more complicated, but you get the idea.  (If you are still reading.)

    It also looks to me like you saw a player you liked, got upset he was dealt, and decided that the only possible reason was the priorities of the Red Sox had to be different that yours, and there were no other possibilities.

    I don’t see how that evolved into a discussion about the merits of speed and defense.   I was trying to turn it into a discussion about how these decisions are made with way more knowledge than we use.  Sort of like the discussion about minor league stats vs. scouting in the “Middlebrooks 1st Season” thread

    [/QUOTE]

    Our interaction in this thread began back on Page 2 when I posted a reply to a 37Stories post outlining why I thought this trade was a mistake for the future of the team.  You responded that there are times when it's necessary to stop building for the future and try to win now.

    As I said to 37 stories, we have differences of opinion and that's what this forum is for, airing those differences.  Since then I've made two gestures to end this before it degenerated into what it has become. You're not going to change my mind and I'm not going to  change yours.  That's fine. 

    As I said in my most previous post, I respect your thought processes, your opinion, and your right to it.

     
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