Any day now

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to notin's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:


    Without reposting everything....

    I truly feel that everything in my earlier posts is, as they say, as plain as the nose on one's face.  In the long run the trade of Iggy is going to cost the Sox both an elite defensive SS AND it's a nail in the coffin in the Ellsbury deal as there's going to be less money to spend on him.

    I see this year's team built on speed and defense, two things I very much like.  Apparently these aren't as important to you (and the FO) as they are to me.  I don't understand that viewpoint because of where s & d have gotten us this year, but that's ok. 

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Any day now

    Drew has been a positive, IGGY is the future .......  His upside will speak volumes in the seasons ahead !!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from GoUconn13. Show GoUconn13's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

    Iglesias is now batting .320.   Drew is at .246.  The people who predicted that Drew would soon pass Iglesias up are now reduced to saying that batting average does not matter. Also, the 74 point difference also probably represents the number of plays that Drew has not made that Iglesias would have. 



    Drew have .987 fielding average compare to Iggy have .991.  But Iggy played twice less games than Drew which mean it is alot easier to have a higher average with less games.  

    Offensively, Drew have way better stats.  Look at RBI's, total base, run score, BB, etc and all of them are twice more than Iggy eventhought Drew only have 389 AB's compare to Iggy batting 319 times.  Drew's WAR is 2.3 and Iggy's WAR is 1.5

    I am glad that Iggy is gone cuz Bogaret is going to be a hell of a player anyway!!

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    Iglesias is now batting .320.   Drew is at .246.  The people who predicted that Drew would soon pass Iglesias up are now reduced to saying that batting average does not matter. Also, the 74 point difference also probably represents the number of plays that Drew has not made that Iglesias would have. 

     



    Drew have .987 fielding average compare to Iggy have .991.  But Iggy played twice less games than Drew which mean it is alot easier to have a higher average with less games.  

     

    Offensively, Drew have way better stats.  Look at RBI's, total base, run score, BB, etc and all of them are twice more than Iggy eventhought Drew only have 389 AB's compare to Iggy batting 319 times.  Drew's WAR is 2.3 and Iggy's WAR is 1.5

    I am glad that Iggy is gone cuz Bogaret is going to be a hell of a player anyway!!

    [/QUOTE]

    You realize those two statements have nothing to do with one another, right?  Phrasing it that way implies that Iggy isn't going to be a hell of a player, something I disagree with.  It never was Iggy vs. Bogarts.  It was a matter of having them BOTH. 
    One of my problems with this discussion is that some posters want to pit one Red Sox player against another, which is totally unnecessary. 

    IMO the most cognitive argument comes from Notin in that he wants to win this year while I was/am willing to sacrifice this year if necessary (although I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that any sacrifices were necessary) to build for 2014. 

    Again IMO, those are two solid, rational differences of opinion and direction, and I have no problem with that.  It's what these forums are for.  

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   



    Huh?  You say 'fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the playoffs'.  Then you explain why the FO also wants the team in the playoffs this year.

    So what you're saying is that the fans' goals and the FO's goals are the same.

    Do you really think guys like Henry and Lucchino only enjoy seeing their team succeed on the field because it makes them richer?  Do you really think they don't watch the games just like fans?

    The fact is you're just making broad assumptions to suit your point of view. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Any day now

    One of the funniest comments you hear about Iglesias is that 'the Red Sox never really saw him as their future shortstop'.  Just one of those amazing feats of mind-reading people perform.

    All they did was sign him way back in 2009, pay him $2 million a year and put a lot of time into his development. 

    But no, this was all with the intention of using him to get a pitcher in a deadline deal in 2013.  

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    One of the funniest comments you hear about Iglesias is that 'the Red Sox never really saw him as their future shortstop'.  Just one of those amazing feats of mind-reading people perform.

    All they did was sign him way back in 2009, pay him $2 million a year and put a lot of time into his development. 

    But no, this was all with the intention of using him to get a pitcher in a deadline deal in 2013.  



    They gave Deven Marrero $2 million too, and have put a lot of time into his development.  I think there's some truth to the idea that the Sox try to stock-pile C and SS because of their value.  If you have a strong farm at these two positions, plus pitching, you can pretty easily trade for other positions.  

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

     



    Huh?  You say 'fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the playoffs'.  Then you explain why the FO also wants the team in the playoffs this year.

    So what you're saying is that the fans' goals and the FO's goals are the same.

    Do you really think guys like Henry and Lucchino only enjoy seeing their team succeed on the field because it makes them richer?  Do you really think they don't watch the games just like fans?

    The fact is you're just making broad assumptions to suit your point of view. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Yep.  I'm assuming that when someone buys a business of any kind it's to make money.  That's pretty broad and brash, I know, but it's been my experience. 

    There's no doubt that there are times when the interests of the fans (winning) and the interest of the owners (making money) intersect, but when push comes to shove the fans want a winning team and the owners want one that will make money.  I'm quite sure there are 'bean counters' in the RS organization who can tell you approximately how much money every step toward the WS will increase the team's revenue in the ensuing year.  That's the way business is nowadays.  That's IMO, but there's a lot of common sense involved in it.

    To answer your question specificially, I DO think they enjoy watching the Sox win, and not only because it makes them money, but the winning is secondary to the money. 

    So are you assuming the owner's don't care about making money? 

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    I DO think it's worth mentioning (again) that fans and he FO have different definitions of a successful season.  Fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the play offs and the FO sees a successful season as one in which they make money.  After not having made the PO's for the past few years I'm sure the FO wants this team to be there this year.  Being in the PO's will build interest in the club again for next year and create more revenue.  And that's what it's all about for the FO. 

    For them it's a business.  For us it's a passion.   

     

     



    Huh?  You say 'fans see a successful season as a year when the Sox go deep into the playoffs'.  Then you explain why the FO also wants the team in the playoffs this year.

     

    So what you're saying is that the fans' goals and the FO's goals are the same.

    Do you really think guys like Henry and Lucchino only enjoy seeing their team succeed on the field because it makes them richer?  Do you really think they don't watch the games just like fans?

    The fact is you're just making broad assumptions to suit your point of view. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yep.  I'm assuming that when someone buys a business of any kind it's to make money.  That's pretty broad and brash, I know, but it's been my experience. 

     

    There's no doubt that there are times when the interests of the fans (winning) and the interest of the owners (making money) intersect, but when push comes to shove the fans want a winning team and the owners want one that will make money.  I'm quite sure there are 'bean counters' in the RS organization who can tell you approximately how much money every step toward the WS will increase the team's revenue in the ensuing year.  That's the way business is nowadays.  That's IMO, but there's a lot of common sense involved in it.

    To answer your question specificially, I DO think they enjoy watching the Sox win, and not only because it makes them money, but the winning is secondary to the money. 

    So are you assuming the owner's don't care about making money? 

    [/QUOTE]


    Because wanting to win is secondary, does that make it a bad thing?

    I don't see your point at all.

    If they want both, I don't see how they can have "different definitions of a sucessful season".

    I think you're trying too hard, S5.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    One of the funniest comments you hear about Iglesias is that 'the Red Sox never really saw him as their future shortstop'.  Just one of those amazing feats of mind-reading people perform.

    All they did was sign him way back in 2009, pay him $2 million a year and put a lot of time into his development. 

    But no, this was all with the intention of using him to get a pitcher in a deadline deal in 2013.  



    Of course they felt he could be the future SS when they signed him. But it's fair to say that in the past year or so they have had second thoughts. It's obvious that they weren't wedded to the idea enough to not trade him because afterall, they traded him.

    A couple of other thoughts based on what I've read on this trade.

    The comparison to Bagwell isn't off because the Sox had Andersen for just the rest of that one year, while Peavy has another year. And it gives the Sox extra starting pitchers for next year, which gives them flexibility in the offseason.

    The trade will have nothing to do with the Sox's ability to re-sign Ellsbury. That's a huge stretch, and I don't understand how that connection is even made. Instead of having Iggy at SS, they'll have Bogaerts. Both young and cheap. Middlebrooks has pretty much solified 3B, another young and inexpensive player. If the Sox don't re-sign Ellsbury, it will be because Boras is demanding a ridiculous contract that it wouldn't have mattered what happened.

    And in no way was trading Iggy something that showed the Sox was risking the future for the present. Yes, this was a "bridge" year. But the Sox had the best record in the AL. You don't simply ignore that. Who knows what will happen in the future. The Sox made a decision that with Middlebrooks and Bogaerts ready and other players in the minors that they had an extra player on the left side of the IF to trade. As Iggy is defensively, they made the decison that Bogaerts all-around ability made him a better choice at SS than Iggy.

    As for keeping all three (Middlebrooks, Iggy, Bogaerts), just because fans keep saying that they could have moved Middlebrooks to 1B about move Bogaerts to 3B, it doesn't mean the team felt that was an option it wanted to explore.

    And while I liked the job Workman was doing, the trade for Peavy has hleped in an number of ways. Workman has picked up  meaningful innings in the bullpen and he might end up being better in the pen than any arm that was available.

    Peavy also has helped the pen in another way. He's gone deep into games, which has helped keep the pen fresh. There's no guarantee Workman would have kept it up. And with Doubrant hitting a wall and Dempster inconsisent, how would the staff looked if Workman stayed in the rotation but hit a wall  himself. Instead of having too many starting pitchers, this would have been a repeat of 2011. The Sox would have had to dependable starters at the to with Lester and Lackey, hoping Buchholz will come back strong and scrambling to fill the back end of the rotation.

    And if Workman went bad in August, the entire staff could be in shambles right now with a burnt out pen.

    So the trade is working out for the Sox so far. And Iggy is doing well. It's not a crime for a player you trade away to do well if you fix your needs and get what you were looking for. It remains to be seen what Iggy is down the road.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    Iglesias is now batting .320.   Drew is at .246.  The people who predicted that Drew would soon pass Iglesias up are now reduced to saying that batting average does not matter. Also, the 74 point difference also probably represents the number of plays that Drew has not made that Iglesias would have. 

     

     



    Drew have .987 fielding average compare to Iggy have .991.  But Iggy played twice less games than Drew which mean it is alot easier to have a higher average with less games.  

     

     

    Offensively, Drew have way better stats.  Look at RBI's, total base, run score, BB, etc and all of them are twice more than Iggy eventhought Drew only have 389 AB's compare to Iggy batting 319 times.  Drew's WAR is 2.3 and Iggy's WAR is 1.5

    I am glad that Iggy is gone cuz Bogaret is going to be a hell of a player anyway!!



    You realize those two statements have nothing to do with one another, right?  Phrasing it that way implies that Iggy isn't going to be a hell of a player, something I disagree with.  It never was Iggy vs. Bogarts.  It was a matter of having them BOTH. 
    One of my problems with this discussion is that some posters want to pit one Red Sox player against another, which is totally unnecessary. 

     

    IMO the most cognitive argument comes from Notin in that he wants to win this year while I was/am willing to sacrifice this year if necessary (although I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that any sacrifices were necessary) to build for 2014. 

    Again IMO, those are two solid, rational differences of opinion and direction, and I have no problem with that.  It's what these forums are for.  



    I don't see it that way. I think it WAS Iggy OR Bogaerts. WMB is going to stay at third base and we are either going to pick up a primo 1B or solve that position with Napoli or Lavarnway. That was the plan, and I think its a very very good one. Defensively Iggy is wonderful; but I think that offensively he will come back to earth and have an OPS under .700. So IMO the question was: do I want Iggy or Bogaerts as my future SS, and the answer its Bogaerts-not even close. Plus we get a very good SP for two years. Great trade for all teams involved.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    Iglesias is now batting .320.   Drew is at .246.  The people who predicted that Drew would soon pass Iglesias up are now reduced to saying that batting average does not matter. Also, the 74 point difference also probably represents the number of plays that Drew has not made that Iglesias would have. 

     

     



    Drew have .987 fielding average compare to Iggy have .991.  But Iggy played twice less games than Drew which mean it is alot easier to have a higher average with less games.  

     

     

    Offensively, Drew have way better stats.  Look at RBI's, total base, run score, BB, etc and all of them are twice more than Iggy eventhought Drew only have 389 AB's compare to Iggy batting 319 times.  Drew's WAR is 2.3 and Iggy's WAR is 1.5

    I am glad that Iggy is gone cuz Bogaret is going to be a hell of a player anyway!!



    You realize those two statements have nothing to do with one another, right?  Phrasing it that way implies that Iggy isn't going to be a hell of a player, something I disagree with.  It never was Iggy vs. Bogarts.  It was a matter of having them BOTH. 
    One of my problems with this discussion is that some posters want to pit one Red Sox player against another, which is totally unnecessary. 

     

    IMO the most cognitive argument comes from Notin in that he wants to win this year while I was/am willing to sacrifice this year if necessary (although I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that any sacrifices were necessary) to build for 2014. 

    Again IMO, those are two solid, rational differences of opinion and direction, and I have no problem with that.  It's what these forums are for.  

     



    I don't see it that way. I think it WAS Iggy OR Bogaerts. WMB is going to stay at third base and we are either going to pick up a primo 1B or solve that position with Napoli or Lavarnway. That was the plan, and I think its a very very good one. Defensively Iggy is wonderful; but I think that offensively he will come back to earth and have an OPS under .700. So IMO the question was: do I want Iggy or Bogaerts as my future SS, and the answer its Bogaerts-not even close. Plus we get a very good SP for two years. Great trade for all teams involved.[/QUOTE]


    Yeah, I agree. I hate making predictions on how good Iggy will be with a bat, but I think it's safe to say he won't ever have a lot of pop. Not that it's a bad thing with the way he plays SS, but I'd rather have a guy like Bogaerts.

    And did you see that barehanded play Bogaerts made the other day? He's n ot Iggy defensively and he might not even be Drew right now, but he's still pretty dmn good.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to royf19's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

     

    In response to S5's comment:

     

    In response to GoUconn13's comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    Iglesias is now batting .320.   Drew is at .246.  The people who predicted that Drew would soon pass Iglesias up are now reduced to saying that batting average does not matter. Also, the 74 point difference also probably represents the number of plays that Drew has not made that Iglesias would have. 

     

     



    Drew have .987 fielding average compare to Iggy have .991.  But Iggy played twice less games than Drew which mean it is alot easier to have a higher average with less games.  

     

     

    Offensively, Drew have way better stats.  Look at RBI's, total base, run score, BB, etc and all of them are twice more than Iggy eventhought Drew only have 389 AB's compare to Iggy batting 319 times.  Drew's WAR is 2.3 and Iggy's WAR is 1.5

    I am glad that Iggy is gone cuz Bogaret is going to be a hell of a player anyway!!



    You realize those two statements have nothing to do with one another, right?  Phrasing it that way implies that Iggy isn't going to be a hell of a player, something I disagree with.  It never was Iggy vs. Bogarts.  It was a matter of having them BOTH. 
    One of my problems with this discussion is that some posters want to pit one Red Sox player against another, which is totally unnecessary. 

     

    IMO the most cognitive argument comes from Notin in that he wants to win this year while I was/am willing to sacrifice this year if necessary (although I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that any sacrifices were necessary) to build for 2014. 

    Again IMO, those are two solid, rational differences of opinion and direction, and I have no problem with that.  It's what these forums are for.  

     

     



    I don't see it that way. I think it WAS Iggy OR Bogaerts. WMB is going to stay at third base and we are either going to pick up a primo 1B or solve that position with Napoli or Lavarnway. That was the plan, and I think its a very very good one. Defensively Iggy is wonderful; but I think that offensively he will come back to earth and have an OPS under .700. So IMO the question was: do I want Iggy or Bogaerts as my future SS, and the answer its Bogaerts-not even close. Plus we get a very good SP for two years. Great trade for all teams involved.




    Yeah, I agree. I hate making predictions on how good Iggy will be with a bat, but I think it's safe to say he won't ever have a lot of pop. Not that it's a bad thing with the way he plays SS, but I'd rather have a guy like Bogaerts.

     

    And did you see that barehanded play Bogaerts made the other day? He's n ot Iggy defensively and he might not even be Drew right now, but he's still pretty dmn good.



    Also, he is just 20. He will improve in all areas more than likely. Bogaerts is my future SS...at least he gets first crack at it.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    Yep.  I'm assuming that when someone buys a business of any kind it's to make money.  That's pretty broad and brash, I know, but it's been my experience. 

    There's no doubt that there are times when the interests of the fans (winning) and the interest of the owners (making money) intersect, but when push comes to shove the fans want a winning team and the owners want one that will make money.  I'm quite sure there are 'bean counters' in the RS organization who can tell you approximately how much money every step toward the WS will increase the team's revenue in the ensuing year.  That's the way business is nowadays.  That's IMO, but there's a lot of common sense involved in it.

    To answer your question specificially, I DO think they enjoy watching the Sox win, and not only because it makes them money, but the winning is secondary to the money. 

    So are you assuming the owner's don't care about making money? 



    I think there are plenty of well-known examples of team owners who are passionate about their teams.  George Steinbrenner, Mark Cuban, Jerry Jones, Bob Kraft, Art Rooney et al.  Wanting to make money and wanting to win are not mutually exclusive in the least.

    Also I'm sure if you really tried you could think of some people who bought businesses at least partly because they thought that running that kind of business would be enjoyable or interesting.

    If John Henry only cared about the money he could have sold his interest for a huge gain well before this.  He also could have trimmed the payroll here and there.   

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from illinoisredsox. Show illinoisredsox's posts

    Re: Any day now

    The Bagwell/Anderson comparison is not the correct one. 

     

    The correct analogy is Mike Boddicker for Brady Anderson (and a throw in named Curt Schilling).  Boddicker helped the Sox to 2 division titles in 1988 and 1990.  Anderson went on to a decent career for the Orioles but was not a superstar (one year excepting).  As for Schillling, he never did much for the O's and it wasn't until he went to Philly 5 years after the trade that he became the Schilling we remember.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Any day now

    Iglesias, Bogaerts, Middlebrooks & Cecchini.  How many of these guys could we play on the field at the same time?  How do you rank them in terms of career potential?  I put Iglesias at the bottom.  It doesn't mean he won't have a great career, but he is the most expendable.

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Any day now

    Since the trade:

    Iglesias 298/342/404, 2 HR, 9 RBI
    Drew 286/370/487, 5 HR, 21 RBI

    Strange timing for this thread, since the numbers show Drew is really hitting his stride since the trade deadline. And as others have pointed out, the question was not really Iggy vs. Drew (no matter how much some may have wanted it, Drew was never going to be dumped or benched or become a utility infielder for Iggy) but Iggy vs Middlebrooks, and we know what Middlebrooks has done since the beginning of August.

    None of this is a knock on Iglesias, who has indeed been sensational with both the glove and the bat. But I'd rather have Drew this year (Bogaerts in the future), Middlebrooks, and Peavy than Drew, Iglesias, and no Peavy.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from ThefourBs. Show ThefourBs's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    Since the trade:

    Iglesias 298/342/404, 2 HR, 9 RBI
    Drew 286/370/487, 5 HR, 21 RBI

    Strange timing for this thread, since the numbers show Drew is really hitting his stride since the trade deadline. And as others have pointed out, the question was not really Iggy vs. Drew (no matter how much some may have wanted it, Drew was never going to be dumped or benched or become a utility infielder for Iggy) but Iggy vs Middlebrooks, and we know what Middlebrooks has done since the beginning of August.

    None of this is a knock on Iglesias, who has indeed been sensational with both the glove and the bat. But I'd rather have Drew this year (Bogaerts in the future), Middlebrooks, and Peavy than Drew, Iglesias, and no Peavy.




    Exactly...

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from 37stories. Show 37stories's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    I think it has been pointed out several times that it is not a choice between Iglesias and Bogaerts. There is / was room for both of them and Middlebrooks as well. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     



    I think it has also been pointed out that Iggy was expendable because of Bogaerts and they Red Sox needed a starting pitcher.

     

     

    Iggy is good. Because he is good they got Peavey.  And the Red Sox don't need Iggy because they have Drew and Bogaerts.

    I don't see what you are upset about, if in fact you are.


    Then let me explain it to you. 

    This trade was not about Iggy OR Drew any more than it was about Iggy OR Middlebrooks or Iggy OR Bogarts.  It was about the future.  For this year the IF could very well have been Middy, Drew, Pedey and Napoli with Iggy as the UIF waiting in the wings.  That would have covered the team for days off or injuries at SS and/or 3b, and as athletic as he is I also believe Iggy would have been satisfactory at 2B. No, not Pedey, but who else IS Pedey??

     

    It also would have provided for an IF next year of Bogarts, Iggy, Pedy and Middlebrooks, all for short money, which would have freed up money to sign Ellsbury & Salty.

    As for Peavy, he's 3-1 in 7 games, not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy.  Yeah, big name, used to be good, but ... he was a "want" rather than a "need". This team NEEDED some BP help but instead what they got was a starter.  And the BP help could have been gotten without giving up Iggy. 

    Fast forward now to next year and the year after and the year after and the year after.  Bogarts (assuming he's as good as billed), Iggy, Pedey and Middy is a pretty formidable If for relatively cheap money, which would allow for money for a big power RH bat and some pitching to replace/extend/compliment Lester & Buch. 

    Combine that with Checchini and Marrero as IF prospects who can be stockpiled in Pawtucket in case they're needed and used as trade bait if they're not and al the bases were covered.  While some may make the argument that Checchini and Marrero may be good enough to play ML baseball I can just as well make the arguement that maybe they won't be.  But Iggy is.

    Now we have to either sign a SS using some of the money we could have used to sign Ellsbury or give the SS position to someone untested.  Or we could sign someone else for CF for less money than Ells would have gotten or give CF to someone else who's untested. 

    While I hope the Sox win the WS this year I also realize that whether they do or not they're going to be paying for this trade for years to come, both in terms of money and talent.

    NOW do you understand?

     

     



    No.

    Because the Red Sox needed Peavey this year for a shot at it all, and don't need Iggy at SS because they have Bogaerts for the future and Drew now.

    It was a good trade.

    For you to say Peavey is not much better than Workman?

    So its game 7 of the ALCS. Which one of those do you want starting it?  it doesn't matter much to you?

    Seriously...make a real argument.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    I think it has been pointed out several times that it is not a choice between Iglesias and Bogaerts. There is / was room for both of them and Middlebrooks as well. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     



    I think it has also been pointed out that Iggy was expendable because of Bogaerts and they Red Sox needed a starting pitcher.

     

     

    Iggy is good. Because he is good they got Peavey.  And the Red Sox don't need Iggy because they have Drew and Bogaerts.

    I don't see what you are upset about, if in fact you are.


    Then let me explain it to you. 

    This trade was not about Iggy OR Drew any more than it was about Iggy OR Middlebrooks or Iggy OR Bogarts.  It was about the future.  For this year the IF could very well have been Middy, Drew, Pedey and Napoli with Iggy as the UIF waiting in the wings.  That would have covered the team for days off or injuries at SS and/or 3b, and as athletic as he is I also believe Iggy would have been satisfactory at 2B. No, not Pedey, but who else IS Pedey??

     

    It also would have provided for an IF next year of Bogarts, Iggy, Pedy and Middlebrooks, all for short money, which would have freed up money to sign Ellsbury & Salty.

    As for Peavy, he's 3-1 in 7 games, not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy.  Yeah, big name, used to be good, but ... he was a "want" rather than a "need". This team NEEDED some BP help but instead what they got was a starter.  And the BP help could have been gotten without giving up Iggy. 

    Fast forward now to next year and the year after and the year after and the year after.  Bogarts (assuming he's as good as billed), Iggy, Pedey and Middy is a pretty formidable If for relatively cheap money, which would allow for money for a big power RH bat and some pitching to replace/extend/compliment Lester & Buch. 

    Combine that with Checchini and Marrero as IF prospects who can be stockpiled in Pawtucket in case they're needed and used as trade bait if they're not and al the bases were covered.  While some may make the argument that Checchini and Marrero may be good enough to play ML baseball I can just as well make the arguement that maybe they won't be.  But Iggy is.

    Now we have to either sign a SS using some of the money we could have used to sign Ellsbury or give the SS position to someone untested.  Or we could sign someone else for CF for less money than Ells would have gotten or give CF to someone else who's untested. 

    While I hope the Sox win the WS this year I also realize that whether they do or not they're going to be paying for this trade for years to come, both in terms of money and talent.

    NOW do you understand?

     

     

     



    No.

     

    Because the Red Sox needed Peavey this year for a shot at it all, and don't need Iggy at SS because they have Bogaerts for the future and Drew now.

    It was a good trade.

    For you to say Peavey is not much better than Workman?

    So its game 7 of the ALCS. Which one of those do you want starting it?  it doesn't matter much to you?

    Seriously...make a real argument.

    [/QUOTE]

    Did I say that Peavy isn't much better than Workman?  Because I read back through what I said and I didn't see that.  What I said was that the results from Peavy isn't much better than what the results were from what Farrel had cobbled together.  Workman was just one of the people in that "cobble".

    It's the 7th game of the WS, the Sox are in the field and have a one run lead with two outs and there's a runner or 3rd in the 9th inning.  There's a ball hit deep into the hole between 3rd & short.  Who do you want at SS?  Drew or Iggy? 

    My point of course is that my "what if" scenario makes no more sense than yours. 

    I made a real argument.  You just don't agree with it.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to lasitter's comment:

    I wish we'd worked the deal with Drew. At the same time, Drew has shown surprising power.

    I personally blame Buchholz for making the trade necessary. The Tigers get a fantastic player under control for a long time and cheap, and we got a good pitcher, but picked up his entire paycheck.

    That's a big difference.




    The Tigers gave up their prized OF prospect who is doing very well in Chicago right now. They had to give up some good talent in order to get Iggy.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from RSF4Life234. Show RSF4Life234's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    I think it has been pointed out several times that it is not a choice between Iglesias and Bogaerts. There is / was room for both of them and Middlebrooks as well. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     



    I think it has also been pointed out that Iggy was expendable because of Bogaerts and they Red Sox needed a starting pitcher.

     

     

    Iggy is good. Because he is good they got Peavey.  And the Red Sox don't need Iggy because they have Drew and Bogaerts.

    I don't see what you are upset about, if in fact you are.


    Then let me explain it to you. 

    This trade was not about Iggy OR Drew any more than it was about Iggy OR Middlebrooks or Iggy OR Bogarts.  It was about the future.  For this year the IF could very well have been Middy, Drew, Pedey and Napoli with Iggy as the UIF waiting in the wings.  That would have covered the team for days off or injuries at SS and/or 3b, and as athletic as he is I also believe Iggy would have been satisfactory at 2B. No, not Pedey, but who else IS Pedey??

     

    It also would have provided for an IF next year of Bogarts, Iggy, Pedy and Middlebrooks, all for short money, which would have freed up money to sign Ellsbury & Salty.

    As for Peavy, he's 3-1 in 7 games, not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy.  Yeah, big name, used to be good, but ... he was a "want" rather than a "need". This team NEEDED some BP help but instead what they got was a starter.  And the BP help could have been gotten without giving up Iggy. 

    Fast forward now to next year and the year after and the year after and the year after.  Bogarts (assuming he's as good as billed), Iggy, Pedey and Middy is a pretty formidable If for relatively cheap money, which would allow for money for a big power RH bat and some pitching to replace/extend/compliment Lester & Buch. 

    Combine that with Checchini and Marrero as IF prospects who can be stockpiled in Pawtucket in case they're needed and used as trade bait if they're not and al the bases were covered.  While some may make the argument that Checchini and Marrero may be good enough to play ML baseball I can just as well make the arguement that maybe they won't be.  But Iggy is.

    Now we have to either sign a SS using some of the money we could have used to sign Ellsbury or give the SS position to someone untested.  Or we could sign someone else for CF for less money than Ells would have gotten or give CF to someone else who's untested. 

    While I hope the Sox win the WS this year I also realize that whether they do or not they're going to be paying for this trade for years to come, both in terms of money and talent.

    NOW do you understand?

     

     

     

     



    No.

     

     

    Because the Red Sox needed Peavey this year for a shot at it all, and don't need Iggy at SS because they have Bogaerts for the future and Drew now.

    It was a good trade.

    For you to say Peavey is not much better than Workman?

    So its game 7 of the ALCS. Which one of those do you want starting it?  it doesn't matter much to you?

    Seriously...make a real argument.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Did I say that Peavy isn't much better than Workman?  Because I read back through what I said and I didn't see that.  What I said was that the results from Peavy isn't much better than what the results were from what Farrel had cobbled together.  Workman was just one of the people in that "cobble".

     

    It's the 7th game of the WS, the Sox are in the field and have a one run lead with two outs and there's a runner or 3rd in the 9th inning.  There's a ball hit deep into the hole between 3rd & short.  Who do you want at SS?  Drew or Iggy? 

    My point of course is that my "what if" scenario makes no more sense than yours. 

    I made a real argument.  You just don't agree with it.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Have you seen some of the plays drew has made this year in the hole. This os the real problem with your argument and the issue with all the others making the same argument. Drew is not some horrible defensive as. When he first came up he was above average. When he has that injury in 2011 into 12 he was a little below average. This year he appears to be back to his old self defensively and is on e again an above average shortstop.

    You realize that with drew in the game we are much more likely to have the lead going into that situation because drew has almost triple the rbis that Iglesias had.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to RSF4Life234's comment:

    In response to S5's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    I think it has been pointed out several times that it is not a choice between Iglesias and Bogaerts. There is / was room for both of them and Middlebrooks as well. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     



    I think it has also been pointed out that Iggy was expendable because of Bogaerts and they Red Sox needed a starting pitcher.

     

     

    Iggy is good. Because he is good they got Peavey.  And the Red Sox don't need Iggy because they have Drew and Bogaerts.

    I don't see what you are upset about, if in fact you are.


    Then let me explain it to you. 

    This trade was not about Iggy OR Drew any more than it was about Iggy OR Middlebrooks or Iggy OR Bogarts.  It was about the future.  For this year the IF could very well have been Middy, Drew, Pedey and Napoli with Iggy as the UIF waiting in the wings.  That would have covered the team for days off or injuries at SS and/or 3b, and as athletic as he is I also believe Iggy would have been satisfactory at 2B. No, not Pedey, but who else IS Pedey??

     

    It also would have provided for an IF next year of Bogarts, Iggy, Pedy and Middlebrooks, all for short money, which would have freed up money to sign Ellsbury & Salty.

    As for Peavy, he's 3-1 in 7 games, not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy.  Yeah, big name, used to be good, but ... he was a "want" rather than a "need". This team NEEDED some BP help but instead what they got was a starter.  And the BP help could have been gotten without giving up Iggy. 

    Fast forward now to next year and the year after and the year after and the year after.  Bogarts (assuming he's as good as billed), Iggy, Pedey and Middy is a pretty formidable If for relatively cheap money, which would allow for money for a big power RH bat and some pitching to replace/extend/compliment Lester & Buch. 

    Combine that with Checchini and Marrero as IF prospects who can be stockpiled in Pawtucket in case they're needed and used as trade bait if they're not and al the bases were covered.  While some may make the argument that Checchini and Marrero may be good enough to play ML baseball I can just as well make the arguement that maybe they won't be.  But Iggy is.

    Now we have to either sign a SS using some of the money we could have used to sign Ellsbury or give the SS position to someone untested.  Or we could sign someone else for CF for less money than Ells would have gotten or give CF to someone else who's untested. 

    While I hope the Sox win the WS this year I also realize that whether they do or not they're going to be paying for this trade for years to come, both in terms of money and talent.

    NOW do you understand?

     

     

     

     

     



    No.

     

     

     

    Because the Red Sox needed Peavey this year for a shot at it all, and don't need Iggy at SS because they have Bogaerts for the future and Drew now.

    It was a good trade.

    For you to say Peavey is not much better than Workman?

    So its game 7 of the ALCS. Which one of those do you want starting it?  it doesn't matter much to you?

    Seriously...make a real argument.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Did I say that Peavy isn't much better than Workman?  Because I read back through what I said and I didn't see that.  What I said was that the results from Peavy isn't much better than what the results were from what Farrel had cobbled together.  Workman was just one of the people in that "cobble".

     

     

    It's the 7th game of the WS, the Sox are in the field and have a one run lead with two outs and there's a runner or 3rd in the 9th inning.  There's a ball hit deep into the hole between 3rd & short.  Who do you want at SS?  Drew or Iggy? 

    My point of course is that my "what if" scenario makes no more sense than yours. 

    I made a real argument.  You just don't agree with it.  

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Have you seen some of the plays drew has made this year in the hole. This os the real problem with your argument and the issue with all the others making the same argument. Drew is not some horrible defensive as. When he first came up he was above average. When he has that injury in 2011 into 12 he was a little below average. This year he appears to be back to his old self defensively and is on e again an above average shortstop.

     

    You realize that with drew in the game we are much more likely to have the lead going into that situation because drew has almost triple the rbis that Iglesias had.

    [/QUOTE]
    PLEASE don't read more into this than what I'm saying.  I've never pitted Drew against Iggy as the starting SS this year and in fact in an earlier post I said that I saw Iggy as being the UIF for the remainder of the year while Drew was the FT SS.

    I'm not at all a Drew basher.  I LIKE Drew as the FT SS this year and I agree that he's done more than a serviceable job both offensively and defensively.  In fact, for this year I like him better than Iggy OR Bogarts.   

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 37stories. Show 37stories's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to S5's comment:

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to S5's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    In response to 37stories' comment:

     

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:

     

     

    I think it has been pointed out several times that it is not a choice between Iglesias and Bogaerts. There is / was room for both of them and Middlebrooks as well. 

    Stabbed by Foulke.

     

     



    I think it has also been pointed out that Iggy was expendable because of Bogaerts and they Red Sox needed a starting pitcher.

     

     

    Iggy is good. Because he is good they got Peavey.  And the Red Sox don't need Iggy because they have Drew and Bogaerts.

    I don't see what you are upset about, if in fact you are.


    Then let me explain it to you. 

    This trade was not about Iggy OR Drew any more than it was about Iggy OR Middlebrooks or Iggy OR Bogarts.  It was about the future.  For this year the IF could very well have been Middy, Drew, Pedey and Napoli with Iggy as the UIF waiting in the wings.  That would have covered the team for days off or injuries at SS and/or 3b, and as athletic as he is I also believe Iggy would have been satisfactory at 2B. No, not Pedey, but who else IS Pedey??

     

    It also would have provided for an IF next year of Bogarts, Iggy, Pedy and Middlebrooks, all for short money, which would have freed up money to sign Ellsbury & Salty.

    As for Peavy, he's 3-1 in 7 games, not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy.  Yeah, big name, used to be good, but ... he was a "want" rather than a "need". This team NEEDED some BP help but instead what they got was a starter.  And the BP help could have been gotten without giving up Iggy. 

    Fast forward now to next year and the year after and the year after and the year after.  Bogarts (assuming he's as good as billed), Iggy, Pedey and Middy is a pretty formidable If for relatively cheap money, which would allow for money for a big power RH bat and some pitching to replace/extend/compliment Lester & Buch. 

    Combine that with Checchini and Marrero as IF prospects who can be stockpiled in Pawtucket in case they're needed and used as trade bait if they're not and al the bases were covered.  While some may make the argument that Checchini and Marrero may be good enough to play ML baseball I can just as well make the arguement that maybe they won't be.  But Iggy is.

    Now we have to either sign a SS using some of the money we could have used to sign Ellsbury or give the SS position to someone untested.  Or we could sign someone else for CF for less money than Ells would have gotten or give CF to someone else who's untested. 

    While I hope the Sox win the WS this year I also realize that whether they do or not they're going to be paying for this trade for years to come, both in terms of money and talent.

    NOW do you understand?

     

     

     

     



    No.

     

     

    Because the Red Sox needed Peavey this year for a shot at it all, and don't need Iggy at SS because they have Bogaerts for the future and Drew now.

    It was a good trade.

    For you to say Peavey is not much better than Workman?

    So its game 7 of the ALCS. Which one of those do you want starting it?  it doesn't matter much to you?

    Seriously...make a real argument.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Did I say that Peavy isn't much better than Workman?  Because I read back through what I said and I didn't see that.  What I said was that the results from Peavy isn't much better than what the results were from what Farrel had cobbled together.  Workman was just one of the people in that "cobble".

     

    It's the 7th game of the WS, the Sox are in the field and have a one run lead with two outs and there's a runner or 3rd in the 9th inning.  There's a ball hit deep into the hole between 3rd & short.  Who do you want at SS?  Drew or Iggy? 

    My point of course is that my "what if" scenario makes no more sense than yours. 

    I made a real argument.  You just don't agree with it.  

    [/QUOTE]


    Ugh.  you said Peavey was "not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy. "

    So the implication is that Peavey is not better than Workman. 

    If you want to back off from that I am fine.

    A pitcher starting an entire game in the playoffs vesus a SS making one play in the hole? Come on.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Any day now

    In response to 37stories' comment:

    Ugh.  you said Peavey was "not appreciably better than what Farrel was cobbling together from spot starters like Workman, so I don't see where we gained much in getting Peavy. "

    So the implication is that Peavey is not better than Workman. 

    If you want to back off from that I am fine.

    A pitcher starting an entire game in the playoffs vesus a SS making one play in the hole? Come on.



    It wasn't my intent to imply that at all.  It was only a statement of fact that Peavy was 3-1 in 7 starts, which wasn't much better than what Farrel had been cobbling together.  Again, please don't read any more into that than what was said.  I actually LIKE having Peavy for this stretch run.  And I also LIKE having Drew @ SS.

    And there's about as much chance of Workman starting a 7th game of the WS as there is of Iggy being at SS and being in that situation.  Smile

     
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