Are the Sox rebuilding?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from GhostofTito. Show GhostofTito's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    I also think this team , which is the oldest in MLB, needs to get younger.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from chuchos. Show chuchos's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    Trades are being mentioned because the Sox need some pitching.  Both starting and relief.  

    Can Youk bounce back without injury this year?
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    Sounds like we're arguing semantic? Rebuild, retool, tweak, reshape all are applicable descriptors. Becasue we have needs at every level in the organization. Too include evaluating the competency of the entire organizations management teams from A ball to the big leaues, scouting and the front office support positions. The short term plan is to right what went wrong with organizational disiplines. In short they need to make a plan, work the plan, tweak the plan and instill a team first attitude for every player that pulls on a Jersey...

    It's incumbent on Luccino and Cherington to hire a new field management team at the big league level that understands how to implement and hold every player accountable to working within the frame of the the organization's phylosophy (See the plan). Within that definition lyes the answers to the short term clubhouse fix and also within that plan lyes the to-do list for player aquisitions.

    Once they feel that they have the right people in place they then need to access the farm system which is the life blood of entire organization and plays a key role in the 3 to 5 year manpower planning. Cleary we have needs at the big league level, but we also have needs at AAA. Where we currently don't have any projectable impact players. Then based on those evaluations and the current contracts of players at the big league level. they then need to address the roster construction based on projectable prospects (ie Ranaudo and Barnes), then aquire players that fit the needs of now with an eye on the 3 to 5 year plan...

    Starting Pitching: the nucleaus is Lester, Beckett and Buccholz. The need giiven the loss of both Lackey and Matsusak for all or most of 2012 is two proven major league starters to bolster the back end of the rotation and two at AAA to provide organizational depth. short term we have candidates in Doubront and Miller, Weiler, longer term they're Ranaundo, Barners and Britton...In my mind we need to aquire at least 1 guy that projects to be in the rotation through 2014 to bridge the gap and allow us to see exactly what we have in the above prospects and two or three veteran journeymen who have the postential to be this years Freddie Garcia and Bartolo Colon.

    Bullpen: the nucleaus is Bard, Morales, Aceves, Albers and Jenks. Need is to access whether Bard is the answer at closer or do they try to sign one of many available free agents. Once that question is answered. they can then access whether Jenks projects to be part of the 2012 plan and if they chose to pass on signing a closer then they'll need to sign at least 1 big arm to replace Bard in the 8th (BRoxton) and IMHO at least one other late innings type preferably lefthanded (Lopez)...We have a plethora of AAA arms, none of whom today projects to be anything more than a middle innings guys. Fields the playerwe aquired from the M's is a guy with the stuff to be a late innings type...

    Position players: the longer term nucleaus is Crawford, Gonzalez and Pedrioa, who are all signed through 2015. Ellsbury has 2 more season so CF in the short term is not a huge to-do and even Youk if healthy falls into the same catergory. Our needs for 2012 are SS, RF and DH all three fall into the short and long term need catergory and frankly the DH spot comes down to how the choses to utelize the 700 plate appearance and the moneys t will take to sign an impact bat to man the postion...The to-do in retooling the 2012 roster starts with Big Papi and Scutaro's contracts and based on what they do with either or both will serve to fill or open a need...RF is clearly on the list of to-do's and what they do with Papi and Scutaro along with RF will help to better define our needs on the bench. Catching is also a to-do more so what to do with Tek? I suspect that the starters job is Saltalamacchia to lose and they need to decide if Lavarnway has the tools to be an everyday catcher and does his bat play at the big league level where he showed flashes of his potential last year, but he also struggled to square up some balls against righties that commanded the ball away...In the 3 to 5 year plan critical our needs are RF, SS, C and 3B...Down on the farm we have some tradeable chips, but cleary we lack impact players to step in to fill our short term needs. Kalish and Reddick both could be compelntary players or used as chips to aquire a righthanded bat to man RF...Middlebrooks is the near term 3B prospect that could be seen as Youk heir and then we have the ever evolving SS position with Inglesias a ready for the big league talant with the glove that has yet to show that he has the plate disipline to compete at the next level, in fairnes to him he also hase been competing well above his league age and still has time at 21 to continue to develop...

    The Bench: Tek, Aviles, Lowrie, MacDonald and Reddick are the "holder overs" and much of what we do here will be dictated by the above...to me in a perfect world we'd look to upgrade the bench to compliment the starters...IE if we sign Scutaro, then we'd have a utiity infiedler that could be a late innings defensive replacement and preferably one that also has the tools to play 2nd and hit's lefthanded...Lowrie IMHO could be Ideal utility corner infielder, but he hasn't regained his stroke from the leftside since injuring his wrist in 2008 and lacks the range to man the SS position...Aviles is a poor mans Scurato, I like his bat and athleticism just not thrilled with the leather...The backup catcher is dependent on whether Wake is in the fold or not, if he is then cleary we need a someone that can handle him. based on our current need for starters my guess is that he will be given strong consideration..jsut not sure that Salty or Tek do him any favors. the BU Ofers will be dependent on whom we aquire to man RF...MacDonald and REddick are both in the mix forthe 4th and 5th OF spots and my guess is that after missing most of last year ideally they'd prefer to let Kalish play everyday at AAA if he's not moved in the interum...

    Call it what you will, cleary Cherington and Luccino certainly have thier work cut out for them. to address the short term needs with longer term solutions...should be a an intersting offseason...time to start cooking...fire up the hot stove and go get the groceries...
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from WesternOregon. Show WesternOregon's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]Sounds like we're arguing semantic? Rebuild, retool, tweak, reshape all are applicable descriptors. Becasue we have needs at every level in the organization. Too include evaluating the competency of the entire organizations management teams from A ball to the big leaues, scouting and the front office support positions. The short term plan is to right what went wrong with organizational disiplines. In short they need to make a plan, work the plan, tweak the plan and instill a team first attitude for every player that pulls on a Jersey... It's incumbent on Luccino and Cherington to hire a new field management team at the big league level that understands how to implement and hold every player accountable to working within the frame of the the organization's phylosophy (See the plan). Within that definition lyes the answers to the short term clubhouse fix and also within that plan lyes the to-do list for player aquisitions. Once they feel that they have the right people in place they then need to access the farm system which is the life blood of entire organization and plays a key role in the 3 to 5 year manpower planning. Cleary we have needs at the big league level, but we also have needs at AAA. Where we currently don't have any projectable impact players. Then based on those evaluations and the current contracts of players at the big league level. they then need to address the roster construction based on projectable prospects (ie Ranaudo and Barnes), then aquire players that fit the needs of now with an eye on the 3 to 5 year plan... Starting Pitching: the nucleaus is Lester, Beckett and Buchholz. The need giiven the loss of both Lackey and Matsusak for all or most of 2012 is two proven major league starters to bolster the back end of the rotation and two at AAA to provide organizational depth. short term we have candidates in Doubront and Miller, Weiler, longer term they're Ranaundo, Barners and Britton...In my mind we need to aquire at least 1 guy that projects to be in the rotation through 2014 to bridge the gap and allow us to see exactly what we have in the above prospects and two or three veteran journeymen who have the postential to be this years Freddie Garcia and Bartolo Colon. Bullpen: the nucleaus is Bard, Morales, Aceves, Albers and Jenks. Need is to access whether Bard is the answer at closer or do they try to sign one of many available free agents. Once that question is answered. they can then access whether Jenks projects to be part of the 2012 plan and if they chose to pass on signing a closer then they'll need to sign at least 1 big arm to replace Bard in the 8th (BRoxton) and IMHO at least one other late innings type preferably lefthanded (Lopez)...We have a plethora of AAA arms, none of whom today projects to be anything more than a middle innings guys. Fields the playerwe aquired from the M's is a guy with the stuff to be a late innings type... Position players: the longer term nucleaus is Crawford, Gonzalez and Pedrioa, who are all signed through 2015. Ellsbury has 2 more season so CF in the short term is not a huge to-do and even Youk if healthy falls into the same catergory. Our needs for 2012 are SS, RF and DH all three fall into the short and long term need catergory and frankly the DH spot comes down to how the choses to utelize the 700 plate appearance and the moneys t will take to sign an impact bat to man the postion...The to-do in retooling the 2012 roster starts with Big Papi and Scutaro's contracts and based on what they do with either or both will serve to fill or open a need...RF is clearly on the list of to-do's and what they do with Papi and Scutaro along with RF will help to better define our needs on the bench. Catching is also a to-do more so what to do with Tek? I suspect that the starters job is Saltalamacchia to lose and they need to decide if Lavarnway has the tools to be an everyday catcher and does his bat play at the big league level where he showed flashes of his potential last year, but he also struggled to square up some balls against righties that commanded the ball away...In the 3 to 5 year plan critical our needs are RF, SS, C and 3B...Down on the farm we have some tradeable chips, but cleary we lack impact players to step in to fill our short term needs. Kalish and Reddick both could be compelntary players or used as chips to aquire a righthanded bat to man RF...Middlebrooks is the near term 3B prospect that could be seen as Youk heir and then we have the ever evolving SS position with Inglesias a ready for the big league talant with the glove that has yet to show that he has the plate disipline to compete at the next level, in fairnes to him he also hase been competing well above his league age and still has time at 21 to continue to develop... The Bench: Tek, Aviles, Lowrie, MacDonald and Reddick are the "holder overs" and much of what we do here will be dictated by the above...to me in a perfect world we'd look to upgrade the bench to compliment the starters...IE if we sign Scutaro, then we'd have a utiity infiedler that could be a late innings defensive replacement and preferably one that also has the tools to play 2nd and hit's lefthanded...Lowrie IMHO could be Ideal utility corner infielder, but he hasn't regained his stroke from the leftside since injuring his wrist in 2008 and lacks the range to man the SS position...Aviles is a poor mans Scurato, I like his bat and athleticism just not thrilled with the leather...The backup catcher is dependent on whether Wake is in the fold or not, if he is then cleary we need a someone that can handle him. based on our current need for starters my guess is that he will be given strong consideration..jsut not sure that Salty or Tek do him any favors. the BU Ofers will be dependent on whom we aquire to man RF...MacDonald and REddick are both in the mix forthe 4th and 5th OF spots and my guess is that after missing most of last year ideally they'd prefer to let Kalish play everyday at AAA if he's not moved in the interum... Call it what you will, cleary Cherington and Luccino certainly have thier work cut out for them. to address the short term needs with longer term solutions...should be a an intersting offseason...time to start cooking...fire up the hot stove and go get the groceries...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Pick ONE of the three. All (in my mind) are rotten apples who need to be separated. Beckett has no work ethic, a bad attitude, injury issues and problems with his weight. Lester is a sour-puss lacking personality, and Buchholz is a punk.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from OnDeckCircle. Show OnDeckCircle's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]Trades are being mentioned because the Sox need some pitching.  Both starting and relief.   Can Youk bounce back without injury this year?
    Posted by chuchos[/QUOTE]


    The word "rebuilding" refers to the pitching.    In 2011, the Sox didn't count on injuries to Buchholz or Matsuzaka with no help coming from the farm system.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : Pick ONE of the three. All (in my mind) are rotten apples who need to be separated. Beckett has no work ethic, a bad attitude, injury issues and problems with his weight. Lester is a sour-puss lacking personality, and Buchholz is a punk.
    Posted by WesternOregon[/QUOTE]

    not sure I agree, new leadership can impact any real or percieved issues with any of the three...that said, if we could trade any of the three (Beckett) and get back another top of the rotation talant i'd be fine with that...
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : Pick ONE of the three. All (in my mind) are rotten apples who need to be separated. Beckett has no work ethic, a bad attitude, injury issues and problems with his weight. Lester is a sour-puss
    lacking personality, and Buchholz is a punk.



    Posted by WesternOregon[/QUOTE]
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ctredsoxfanhugh. Show ctredsoxfanhugh's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]I also think this team , which is the oldest in MLB, needs to get younger.
    Posted by GhostofTito[/QUOTE]


    True but remember a lot of the guys on our team who are older have either very low contracts that are up, or their contracts are up.

    e.g. Tim Wakefield/Jason varitek....and J.D. Drew/David Ortiz

    you take a team like NY who may be 1 year less by average.  but the duration of their contracts is weighted heavier on their older guys (Derek Jeter/ Alex Rodriguez/Mariona Rivera and soon to be C.C. Sabathia)  

    when it comes down to it we made good commitments to players when they were young (Pedrioa/Youkilis/Lester/Buccholz) and have some more fresh talent coming up as well.

    You are Absolutely 100% right though, we do need to get younger, I'm merely just trying to point out that we aren't committed to age as much as some would think right now. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : True but remember a lot of the guys on our team who are older have either very low contracts that are up, or their contracts are up. e.g. Tim Wakefield/Jason varitek....and J.D. Drew/David Ortiz you take a team like NY who may be 1 year less by average.  but the duration of their contracts is weighted heavier on their older guys (Derek Jeter/ Alex Rodriguez/Mariona Rivera and soon to be C.C. Sabathia)   when it comes down to it we made good commitments to players when they were young (Pedrioa/Youkilis/Lester/Buccholz) and have some more fresh talent coming up as well. You are Absolutely 100% right though, we do need to get younger, I'm merely just trying to point out that we aren't committed to age as much as some would think right now. 
    Posted by ctredsoxfanhugh[/QUOTE]

    ct...

    The Sox can go in a couple of different directions and look to build bridges to the future as well as filling needs for the future and the now...much depends on the readiness and projecablitily of our top prospects and what the market will bare...Free agency is always the easiest route to filling the needs of now and you can also find guys that profile as bridges too...
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from DirtyWaterLover. Show DirtyWaterLover's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    I don't see why they need to rebuild.  Starting Pitching was the problem, not the offense.

    Unless they need to trade away position players in an effort to pick up a #4 starter and some pitching prospects.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    Few thoughts:

    Subtract Wakefield, Drew, Cameron and Varitek this team gets "younger" in a hurry in terms of average age.

    Every team looks to see where they can improve every year. Every team is making major changes to their bullpen every year. The RS do have work to do with the bottom 2 in their rotation and that along with Ortiz and Paplebon tend to jump off of the page to me.

    The 7-20 finish and the stories of beer and Popeye's and teammates being grumpy with each other has clouded the fact that the RS were derailed by an unusual high number of serious injuries to their opening day starting 5. If you subtract the Lackey starts with hindsight of the severity of his elbow issues, the RS got just over 90 starts from their opening day starting 5.

    They will have some work to do but if they suffer the level of injury they did in 2010 to their starting position players or the injury level that had to starting pitchers in 2011 there isn't enough work to cover that and get a team to win much more than 90 games.


     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]The lead story in this site this morning says that Youk is a major bargaining chip as the Sox begin to rebuild. So my question is, are the Sox rebuilding?  To me, rebuilding means taking a step backward, scrapping most of what you've got because it didn't work and starting over.  What this team had was working but fell apart in September due to injuries, lack of conditioning, and a clubhouse malaise.   The talent was and is there.  Rather than rebuild I'd rather see the team recognize that they had the best record in baseball through August, recognize what wasn't working, tweak what wasn't working, and move forward.  Other opinions? 
    Posted by S5[/QUOTE]

    After watching the last few seasons how could anyone not think this is the perfect time to rebuild?

    Not every team has players like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Adrian, Lavarnway, Youk, Crawford, Lester, Buchholz, Beckett, Reddick, Aviles, Salty, Kalish, Bard, Aceves and a hopefull 21 year old in Igleasias to rebuild around.  Papi, Scuter and or Pap could also return.  With two SP's, a couple changes in the pen, a solid PC, RF and manager like Martinez we could be well on our way to another WS appearance.  I would keep Youk for now I don't see Lowrie, Aviles or Middlebrooks being viable replacements.

    Nows the time!


    Tek "40 in april"
    Wake "45"
    Drew "37 in Nov"
    McDon
    Theo
    Tito
    The entire coaching staff?
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]The lead story in this site this morning says that Youk is a major bargaining chip as the Sox begin to rebuild. So my question is, are the Sox rebuilding?  To me, rebuilding means taking a step backward, scrapping most of what you've got because it didn't work and starting over.  What this team had was working but fell apart in September due to injuries, lack of conditioning, and a clubhouse malaise.   The talent was and is there.  Rather than rebuild I'd rather see the team recognize that they had the best record in baseball through August, recognize what wasn't working, tweak what wasn't working, and move forward.  Other opinions? 
    Posted by S5[/QUOTE]

    It's not rebuilding if they bring in younger guys to replace guys like Varitek, Wakefield, Drew, possibly Ortiz, Wheeler.

    If those five guys are replaced by the following:
    Varitek - Lavarnway
    Wakefield - Doubront (age 24) to Wang (31)
    Drew - Kalish
    Ortiz - Cuddyer
    Wheeler - Madsen

    Those five moves alone will decrease the average 25 man roster age of the Boston Red Sox by a total of 58 years. Divide that by 25 and your average age
    goes down by over 2 years a man. With just the Varitek and Wakefield moves, the average age per man goes down by over a year a player.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Are the Sox rebuilding? : It's not rebuilding if they bring in younger guys to replace guys like Varitek, Wakefield, Drew, possibly Ortiz, Wheeler. If those five guys are replaced by the following: Varitek - Lavarnway Wakefield - Doubront (age 24) to Wang (31) Drew - Kalish Ortiz - Cuddyer Wheeler - Madsen Those five moves alone will decrease the average 25 man roster age of the Boston Red Sox by a total of 58 years. Divide that by 25 and your average age goes down by over 2 years a man. With just the Varitek and Wakefield moves, the average age per man goes down by over a year a player.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    A much needed start either way ADG.  LETSGETRDONE!
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    re·build (r-bld)
    tr.v. re·built (-blt), re·build·ing, re·builds
    1. To build again.
    2. To make extensive structural repairs on.
    3. To remodel or make extensive changes in: tried to rebuild society.

    rebuild [riːˈbɪld]
    vb -builds, -building, -built
    1. to make, construct, or form again the cost of rebuilding the house
    2. (tr) to restore (a system or situation) to a previous condition his struggle to rebuild his life
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tetonman50. Show tetonman50's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : not sure I agree, new leadership can impact any real or percieved issues with any of the three...that said, if we could trade any of the three (Beckett) and get back another top of the rotation talant i'd be fine with that...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

    Exactly!!!  I spent my entire working life in management and learned very early how much impact one way or another good or poor leadership can have. It's huge.

    I am not for one second letting any player who did not give a 100% effort off the hook..... That non sense has to be dealt with one way or another next year.   Having said that I would trade, kick in the butt, or get rid of anybody on this team in a heartbeat if I felt it would be best for the team.

     But it's not good enough for ownership and management to just assemble a bunch of various parts and hope for the best.  

     It almost seemed to me from day one this year our owners and management felt they had done their job by opening day.  They spent huge money, made glorious headlines with major FA signings, and established in the minds of us fans wonderful expectations.  Clearly it seems all that was left was for the players to just take it from there.

      But one by one as the wheels came off, from some players not delivering as expected, mounting key injures, or the huge day to day swings in our offensive capabilities it seemed to me that management felt that Francona re arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic was all that was needed to keep it from sinking, and on course. 

      IMHO what we saw this past year was primarily a huge failure of ownership and management from top to bottom to do the most essential part of their job.  Pay attention to details!!!    By time they realized there were serious problems it was far to late to address them effectively.

      The big question is has that lesson been learned?  If it has not been learned then no matter who we get, and who we get rid of, this off season the results next year will be no better then this year.   The good news is I believe it's clear that a lot of lessons were learned this year and issues that sunk us this year will be better addressed.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenapplesplatters. Show greenapplesplatters's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]The lead story in this site this morning says that Youk is a major bargaining chip as the Sox begin to rebuild. So my question is, are the Sox rebuilding?  To me, rebuilding means taking a step backward, scrapping most of what you've got because it didn't work and starting over.  What this team had was working but fell apart in September due to injuries, lack of conditioning, and a clubhouse malaise.   The talent was and is there.  Rather than rebuild I'd rather see the team recognize that they had the best record in baseball through August, recognize what wasn't working, tweak what wasn't working, and move forward.  Other opinions? 
    Posted by S5[/QUOTE]


    I think everyone would agree to a point--that point being about what it's going to take to turn the clubhouse around. It might not be that easy. Lackey's abesnce is a good start. And needless to say both Wakefield and Varitek should be shown the door--they both failed miserably at injecting any veteran leadership when it's clear that's all either really has to offer at this point in time. IMO Clay and Lester 'get it' that they're on notice. But Beckett, Youkilis and Ortiz (if he's back) I'm not so sure about.

    The Jack McKeon stories about Beckett doing the same thing back in 2003 clearly indicate that he knows what's right and wrong, yet has no intentions of changing a damn thing. He's stubborn ontop of it, and I'm not going to be surprised to see him give the finger to everyone. And Youkilis?..well poor Kevin just isn't bright enough to know when to shut his mouth. Same goes for Ortiz when he throws his tantrums 2-3 times a year. But maybe the right manager can get to those two. So both Cherington and whoever the new manager is have got their work cut out for them.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from greenapplesplatters. Show greenapplesplatters's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : Exactly!!!  I spent my entire working life in management and learned very early how much impact one way or another good or poor leadership can have. It's huge. I am not for one second letting any player who did not give a 100% effort off the hook..... That non sense has to be dealt with one way or another next year.   Having said that I would trade, kick in the butt, or get rid of anybody on this team in a heartbeat if I felt it would be best for the team.  But it's not good enough for ownership and management to just assemble a bunch of various parts and hope for the best.    It almost seemed to me from day one this year our owners and management felt they had done their job by opening day.  They spent huge money, made glorious headlines with major FA signings, and established in the minds of us fans wonderful expectations.  Clearly it seems all that was left was for the players to just take it from there.   But one by one as the wheels came off, from some players not delivering as expected, mounting key injures, or the huge day to day swings in our offensive capabilities it seemed to me that management felt that Francona re arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic was all that was needed to keep it from sinking, and on course.    IMHO what we saw this past year was primarily a huge failure of ownership and management from top to bottom to do the most essential part of their job.  Pay attention to details!!!    By time they realized there were serious problems it was far to late to address them effectively.   The big question is has that lesson been learned?  If it has not been learned then no matter who we get, and who we get rid of, this off season the results next year will be no better then this year.   The good news is I believe it's clear that a lot of lessons were learned this year and issues that sunk us this year will be better addressed.
    Posted by tetonman50[/QUOTE]


    Great post, and right on the money. People forget that nothing involving this organization happens by accident. It's all very well planned, every step calculated. So when that "Best Team Ever" campaign hit the streets before the season---it came from within. As ill-conceived as it turned out to be, that marketing campaign came from the marketing dept. and was signed off on by Henry, et al. And that's scary that they thought that was a good idea. Talk about arrogance. Talk about not 'getting it.'

    I fully agree that ownership is the biggest problem we have right now. And sadly, nothing is really going to change as long as they're still here.

     
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    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : Exactly!!!  I spent my entire working life in management and learned very early how much impact one way or another good or poor leadership can have. It's huge. I am not for one second letting any player who did not give a 100% effort off the hook..... That non sense has to be dealt with one way or another next year.   Having said that I would trade, kick in the butt, or get rid of anybody on this team in a heartbeat if I felt it would be best for the team.  But it's not good enough for ownership and management to just assemble a bunch of various parts and hope for the best.    It almost seemed to me from day one this year our owners and management felt they had done their job by opening day.  They spent huge money, made glorious headlines with major FA signings, and established in the minds of us fans wonderful expectations.  Clearly it seems all that was left was for the players to just take it from there.   But one by one as the wheels came off, from some players not delivering as expected, mounting key injures, or the huge day to day swings in our offensive capabilities it seemed to me that management felt that Francona re arranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic was all that was needed to keep it from sinking, and on course.    IMHO what we saw this past year was primarily a huge failure of ownership and management from top to bottom to do the most essential part of their job.  Pay attention to details!!!    By time they realized there were serious problems it was far to late to address them effectively.   The big question is has that lesson been learned?  If it has not been learned then no matter who we get, and who we get rid of, this off season the results next year will be no better then this year.   The good news is I believe it's clear that a lot of lessons were learned this year and issues that sunk us this year will be better addressed.
    Posted by tetonman50[/QUOTE]

    tetonman,
    I agree with most of your above opin. I also fee lthat all of the off the field stuff is really being overstated were there issues absolutely but the played a minor role in the collapse IMHO....

    Truly what was at the heart of our demise was two fold. One was lack of organizational depth with impact tradeable ready for the the big league position prospects to use as chips to bolster the team and provide us with quality reinforcments and frankly they got nothing out of Doubront who was seen as a viable 5th or 6th starter entering the spring who reportedly (Gammons) showed up to camp out of shape and subsequently injured himself....Miller and Weiland didn't step up either both of whom were seen as, at minimum, guys that could gives us quality innings out of the pen. 

    That said, I am pretty certain that the Sox upper management new full well that they were thin in the upper levels and frankly that was secondary to the injuries to Matsusaka & Buccholz and today as we've learned that Lackey also pitched with a bad wing all year (not sure that was news)...Losing 2/5th of your opening day starting rotation is tough to overcome, add to that a guy that was counted on at worst to give us 33 starts, 200 innings and sub 4 era and that's tough to overcome...just asked the Braves who shared the same fate as the Sox getting run down after opeing a commanding 10 game lead late in August....

    So while I do think they could've reacted sooner and by all reports they did try to obtain Kuroda who invoked his no trade to block the deal as well as Bedard. Who they went after when the Harden for Anderson and a player to be named deal fell through because the fine print which stated the if Harden made all of his starts the Sox would ahve to then give the A's a top 10 guy which was way too much for an oftinjured player like Harden...

    That said just not sure that they realistically could have drawn up a contigency to address the sheer volume of quality innings they lost from the rotation and that's not even factoring in the cause and effect that losing Jenks and the season long underperfromance of Wheeler had on the pen. what is often also overlooked was we also had key position players go down starting with Kalish in the spring then Drew and in the second half Youk and Gonzalez both limped to the finish line.

    In closing, I think that there were many issue that led to the teams demise but truly is Texas in the hunt had they lost Harrison & Holland and then rolled Lewis out with a bad wing...doubtful...St Louis lost Wainwright early on and didn't truly take off until they added Jackson to stabilize thier rotation and Like the Rays were fortunate that the team (Braves) they were chasing also lost 2/5th of their rotation (Hansen & Jurggens) and had an underperforming veteran who didn't give them QS (Lowe) and then saw thier once fromidable bullpen implode from overuse...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : Great post, and right on the money. People forget that nothing involving this organization happens by accident. It's all very well planned, every step calculated. So when that "Best Team Ever" campaign hit the streets before the season---it came from within. As ill-conceived as it turned out to be, that marketing campaign came from the marketing dept. and was signed off on by Henry, et al. And that's scary that they thought that was a good idea. Talk about arrogance. Talk about not 'getting it.' I fully agree that ownership is the biggest problem we have right now. And sadly, nothing is really going to change as long as they're still here.
    Posted by greenapplesplatters[/QUOTE]The "campaign" went a little deeper than the RS PR department. The consensus in the industry was that the Phillies and the RS were head and shoulders above all other competitors with the RS having a more robust offense and the Phils the better starting rotation.

    The reasons for the projections were obvious, the starting 5 pitcher were in aggregate a very good staff. The bullpen appeared deep and the back two guys in the bullpen about as good a one two punch as there was in MLB.

    Keep staring at fried chicken and beer if you must. The RS got just over 90 starts from their opening day starting 5. The NYY over 130, the Rays just under 150.

    IMO the RS will have there eye on the ball on all the issues. The management changes will clean up the noise factors and they are going to focus on the annual problems every team has. Youk being annoying, others saying nothing and three pitchers having brews and Popeye's won't be a player personnel focus IMO. 
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are the Sox rebuilding? : The "campaign" went a little deeper than the RS PR department. The consensus in the industry was that the Phillies and the RS were head and shoulders above all other competitors with the RS having a more robust offense and the Phils the better starting rotation. The reasons for the projections were obvious, the starting 5 pitcher were in aggregate a very good staff. The bullpen appeared deep and the back two guys in the bullpen about as good a one two punch as there was in MLB. Keep staring at fried chicken and beer if you must. The RS got just over 90 starts from their opening day starting 5. The NYY over 130, the Rays just under 150. IMO the RS will have there eye on the ball on all the issues. The management changes will clean up the noise factors and they are going to focus on the annual problems every team has. Youk being annoying, others saying nothing and three pitchers having brews and Popeye's won't be a player personnel focus IMO. 
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    agreed...the devils in the details...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from tetonman50. Show tetonman50's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    I think basically these last half dozen posts here are all in general agreement.....  The final meltdown this year was from a accumulation of far more factors then just beer and chicken.

    But in the end management must accept the responsibility for failure.  Management sets the tone, and expectations.  Management is also responsible to find back up plans, and most of all to pay attention to details.   Bottom line it's management's job to find ways to deal with whatever needs to be dealt with no matter how hard it is to find solutions. 
    When I say this, in no way am I suggesting that management can always find those solutions..... But to me there were a lot of red flags all year, from opening day that this team was not as advertised. I honestly feel that the owners and upper management managed to believe their own hype and convince themselves that playing the regular season was just a formality for this team ahead of the post season. 

      
    No doubt that mistake will not be repeated next year.  

    What is the responsibility of the players?  IMHO to act as professionals, adults, and put team ahead of self.  As well as give 100% .......  Also to come to spring training in top shape ready to play ball on the professional level.   If they don't then it's managements job to deal with them.  I would be very surprised if that is not made clear long before spring training begins next year.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    Pitching on paper looked great indeed, and it will look very good again in April. 

    Hard to argue against a staff on paper that has Beckett, Lester, and Bucholz.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from SoxFanInIL. Show SoxFanInIL's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    The Red Sox have exactly 10 players under contract, including Lackey, Matsuzaka and Jenks.

    They have a GM whose been on the job 2 days. They have no Manager. They have no pitching coach.

    They have gaping holes at RF, SS, C, SP and no closer or DH.

    They absolutely, definitely are rebuilding.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rutland76. Show Rutland76's posts

    Re: Are the Sox rebuilding?

    All excellent posts above except for Mr. Diarrhea. Why would anyone name themselves with GreenAppleSplatters or GickChum? The monikers do indeed give you a warning that they are trolls spewing crap.
     

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