Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Call it "voodoo" luck. Call it anything you want, but the Sox win with V'Tek and struggle with other catchers.

    Sox record in 2011:
    w/V'tek: 42-22  66%
    w/Salty: 47-49  49%
    w/Lava:  1-1     50%

    Even if we take away Beckett's 20-10 record and we're still left with this:
    w/Vtek: 22-12   65%

    Sox record in April and September:
    w/V'tek: 9-11    45%
    w/Salty: 9-23    28%

    Sox record in 2010:
    w/Vtek:    21-9    70%
    w/VMart:  59-49  55%
    w/Cash:    9-10   47%
    w/Brown: 0-3       0%
    w/Molina: 0-2      0%


    When looking at the Opponent's OPS and CERA numbers when V'tek or Salty and V'tek or VMart were catching:

    Red: better with VTek
    Purple: about even
    Blue: better with Salty

    Starters:
    Lester: better with VTek by about .150 in OPS & about 1.50 ERA 
    ('11-Salty & '10-VMart combined)

    Beckett: better with V'Tek by about .150 OPS and 2.00 ERA when combining VMart and Salty over 2010-2011 (although VMart was better in 2010). (Salty's sample size is very small.)

    Lackey: about a tie between V'Tek and Salty, but V'Tek better than VMart.

    Buchholtzbest with VMart, 2nd/3rd about a tie  V'tek/Salty
    (small sample sizes)

    Wakefield: V'Tek did not catch him in 2010, but in a small sample size this year did VTek better than Salty.

    Dice-K: better with V'Tek by about .200 in OPS and 4.00 in ERA. (Combining VMart & Salty's 2010-2011 numbers-Salty's numbers on 2 IP)

    Miller: better with Salty by about .350 OPS and 3.00 ERA. (Both had under 36 IP with Miller this year) 

    Bedard and Weiland: both very small sample sizes (V'Tek slightly better with Bedard but way worse with Weiland.) 

    Relievers:
    Aceves: better with V'Tek by about 0.50 OPS and 0.50 ERA. 
    (pretty balanced IP)

    Bard: much better with V'Tek by about about .100 OPS and 3.00 ERA. (Better vs VMart by about .350 OPS/2.00 ERA) (pretty balanced IP)

    Papelbon: about even with Salty in '11 and VMart in '10. 
    (pretty balanced IP)

    Albers: better with V'Tek by about .100 OPS and 1.50 ERA.
    (pretty balanced IP)

    Wheeler: better with Salty by about .100 OPS and 1.00 ERA.
    (VTek only 15 IP sample size.)

    Morales: better with VTek by .200 OPS and 1.00 ERA.
    (Balanced IP, but small samples sizes for both)

    2011:
    Better with V'Tek: 9
    About tied: 3
    Better with Salty: 3 
    (with the 3 pitchers that Salty did better, V'Tek had these IP: 30, 15, 4)

    Nobody is arguing that V'tek should be the FT catcher. Those days are long gone. However, when looking at V'Tek as a back-up catcher (or maybe 40% catcher like 2011), many like to point out what an awful hitter Vtek is. I think some posters are missing an intersting point. Out of the 33 MLB catchers with 250+ PAs this season, VTek placed number 17 in OPS at .723. 

    Our back-up catcher placed #17 out of 33!  
    In a sense, V'Tek is equal to the average STARTING CATCHER in MLB in OPS. 

    V'Tek's salary will likely be between $1M and $2M. 

    Are you guys really so sure you don't want him back?




     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Here are the specific 2010 and 2011 numbers:

    Red denotes better numbers in sample sizes larger than 30 IP.
    Blue denotes better numbers in sample sizes with at least one pitcher between 13-29 IP. 

              (IP)  OPS  CERA

    Jon Lester:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .577  2.48  -1.29

    Salty   (146) .717  3.77

    Lava     (6)   .783  3.00

    ‘10

    VTek    (38)  .492  1.88   -1.76

    VMart (136) .656  3.64

    Cash    (27)  .649  3.38

    Brown   (7)  .693  2.57

     

    Josh Beckett:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (182) .587  2.62   -4.84

    Salty     (11)  .916  7.36

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (36)  .851  7.18

    Vmart  (74) .823  5.11  -2.07

    Cash    (10) .947  6.97

    Salty     (7) .936  3.86

     

    John Lackey:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (33)   .769  6.82

    Salty   (127) .874  6.31  -0.51

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (41)  .724  3.29  -1.52

    VMart (123) .805  4.81

    Salty     (22)  .646 2.86

    Cash     (18)  .627  3.93

    Molina  (12) .883  7.50

     

    Clay Buchholtz:

    ‘11

    V’Tek    (18)  .841  3.38  -0.14

    Salty     (64)  .662  3.52

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (4)   .429  2.25

    VMart (165) .603 2.13

    Brown   (4) 1.041 11.25

     

    Tim Wakefield:

    ’11

    V’Tek   (13) .634  4.15  -1.06

    Salty   (142) .808  5.21

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (0)    n/a

    VMart (108)  .783  5.27  -0.66

    Cash    (30)   .741  5.93

     

    Daisuke Matsusaka:

    ‘11

    V’Tek (35)  .545   3.82

    Salty   (2)  1.768  31.50

    ‘10

    V’Tek (50) .622  3.81   -2.09

    VMart (69) .784 5.90

    Cash    (23) .670 3.57

    Salty    (7)  .703  5.40

    Brown (6)  .584  1.50

     

    Andrew Miller:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (30)  1.034  7.28

    Salty   (35)   .681  4.08  -3.20

     

    Erik Bedard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (16)  .636  3.38  -0.48

    Salty    (19)  .686  3.86

     

    Kyle Weiland:

    ‘11

    V’Tek (4)  1.323 13.50

    Salty   (18)  .865  7.64

    Lava      (3)  .200  0.00

     

    Alfredo Aceves:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (42)  .580  2.34   -0.48

    Salty    (67)  .642  2.82

    Lava    (5)    .675  1.93

     

    Daniel Bard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .472  1.44   -3.10

    Salty    (31)  .579  4.54

    Lava      (2)  .889  9.00

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (19)  .304  0.48   -2.16

    VMart  (44) .651  2.64

    Cash     (7)   .247  0.00

    Career:

    V’Tek  (80)  .523  1.79     -2.75 vs Salty/ -1.37 vs VMart

    Salty    (43)  .597  4.54

    VMart  (51)  .669  3.16

     

    Jonathan Papelbon

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (26)  .536  2.45    -0.30

    Salty    (36)  .516  2.75

    Lava     (2)   .923 10.12

    ‘10

    V”Tek  (15)  .790  4.11

    VMart  (40)  .629  4.02  -0.09

    Cash     (9)   .572  1.00

     

    Matt Albers:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (36)  .686  4.00   -1.53

    Salty    (29)  .782  5.53

    Lava     (1)   .900  9.00

     

    Dan Wheeler:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (15)  .771  5.40

    Salty    (34)  .662  4.19  -1.21

     

    Franklin Morales:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (14)  .671  3.14    -1.10

    Salty    (17)  .871  4.24

     

    I think it is easy to see that VTek's influence is at least between 0.25 and 0.50 in ERA. The trend goes back way before 2010, as harness documented on his earlier thread. A case could be made that it is more like 0.75 to 1.25, but I won't go there.

    Although team CERA is not an accurate way to compare catchers, since each catcher has differing innings with differing pitchers, here is the final Sox numbers:

    VTek:  (575) .662  3.57

    Salty  (856) .746  4.62

    Lava  (27)   .760  4.39

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    You lost me at "Call it voodoo," can you break itdown in laymens terms?
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter1. Show parhunter1's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Problem is, Varitek will never be the full-time catcher, so the Sox cannot take advantage of the intangibles you suggest he offers.  And, he's got to be replaced someday...someone has got to learn to catch the pitching staff and have a winning record, and it has to be soon!

    That said, I would like to see Varitek and Lavarnway as the tandem next year.  I saw no evidence that he was any worse a defender than Salty.  I also think he will be a better hitter, and that Salty might have some trade value in a apckage for a RH right-fielder, or a few young prospects to fill out a rather thin minor league system.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    parhunter1 is right, if Tek only catches 1/3 of the games that means the other 2/3 we are getting our rears kicked? Well then its all the more important to get a younger better CERA catcher who can catch 75% of the time... 

    parhunter1 is wrong on trading Salty. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BOSOX1941. Show BOSOX1941's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    parhunter1  is right, if Tek only catches 1/3 of the games that means the other 2/3 we are getting our rears kicked? Well then its all the more important to get a younger better CERA catcher who can catch 75% of the time...  parhunter1 is wrong on trading Salty. 
    Posted by BurritoT


    Don't you mean that you disagree with him on trading Salty?
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Varitek caught (started) 40% of the 162 games.
    His impact in team wins/losses was huge.

    It has been for over a decade.

    Moon, terrific work. It's appreciated. I never bought into minimizing the disparity to .25 - .50 because the W/L record says otherwise.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Yes, but to what end? Until he's 45 like Wakefield.

    How much of an impact did he have as captain? After what went on in the clubhouse, his captainship needs to be stripped.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    As a change up, why wouldn't the Reds Sox sign Ramon Hernandez?
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from bosoxmal. Show bosoxmal's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    He should be named Manager, right now! Bobby Valentine? How many other stiffs will be mentioned before they get serious.

    Durocher, Boudreau, Cronin; all did just fine as playing managers. Tek could catch
    20 or 30 games. Lester and Beckett can stop being mound-divas, and pitch the catcher's game no matter who catches. Too many spoiled prima donnas, here.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from soxnewmex. Show soxnewmex's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Data gave me pause; anyway, really want Lavarnway as my #1 catcher--like a poster above said, didn't look any worse than Salty defensively, and I believe that dude is going to be a serious hitter--Salty looked good for awhile but finished really poorly on both sides of the coin.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    parhunter1  is right, if Tek only catches 1/3 of the games that means the other 2/3 we are getting our rears kicked? Well then its all the more important to get a younger better CERA catcher who can catch 75% of the time...  parhunter1 is wrong on trading Salty. 
    Posted by BurritoT

    The biggest issue against VTek is that an serious injury to the other catcher would force VTek to catch more than he should, or force the Sox to deal out of desperation midseason.

    If we are talking about the back-up or 40% catcher here, the 60% catcher should have no effect on whether it is worth keeping Vtek or not. Either he is a value in that role or he is not. At $1-2M, he clearly is, unless you eblieve the above numbers are "voodoo".

    The  presence of Lavarnway alleviates the injury to Salty issue in my eyes, but I would have no problem bringing in another established catcher who has a great and proven CERA and catcher intangible skillset as the 60% guy. 

    A Lavarnway 50-60%/ V'tek 40-50% tandem would be fine with me as well. I think salty might still have options left, but we could also deal him with his stock pretty high.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    The bottom line is the bottom line with any company or organization:
     
                               Wins & losses.

    The team was a below .500 team with Salty. That has to improve in his second FT season in Boston, because .500 is unacceptable and easily replaceable.

    The real question isn't Tek's return. The team wins with Tek, he gets the best out of the pitchers and is inexpensive. The "C" is honorary. Pathetic posters are using it to further their witch-hunt mentality. No one person can stop the rushing waters once the dam has broke.

    The real question is Salty. Will he improve? Or do they go with a veteran presence, with Lavernway in reserve if injuries occur.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_4413657. Show user_4413657's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Sign Varitek and carry all three through the year.  Sign Cuddyer to platoon with Reddick in right.  Don't sign Ortiz and let Cuddyer DH when he's not in rightfield and Lavarnway DH when he is.  It adds one or two RH bats depending on matchups and gives Lavarnway valuable experience.  And, Ortiz's salary towards pitching.  Cuddyer has backup potential at first and second, too.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from gareman2. Show gareman2's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    Call it "voodoo" luck. Call it anything you want, but the Sox win with V'Tek and struggle with other catchers. Sox record in 2011: w/V'tek: 42-22  66% w/Salty: 47-49  49% w/Lava:  1-1     50% Even if we take away Beckett's 20-10 record and we're still left with this: w/Vtek: 22-12   65% Sox record in April and September: w/V'tek: 9-11    45% w/Salty: 9-23    
    Posted by moonslav59



    Well, for argument's sake, was the entire month of September Salty's fault or did the team collectively spit the bit?  My thinking is that for the entire season, Ellsbury, A-Gon, and Papi performed at or exceeded expectations.  Pedroia got going from June on.  Others had their shining moments or shining periods but all in all underperformed (see Crawford, Lackey, etc). 
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    Call it "voodoo" luck. Call it anything you want, but the Sox win with V'Tek and struggle with other catchers. Sox record in 2011: w/V'tek: 42-22  66% w/Salty: 47-49  49% w/Lava:  1-1     50% Even if we take away Beckett's 20-10 record and we're still left with this: w/Vtek: 22-12   65% Sox record in April and September: w/V'tek: 9-11    45% w/Salty: 9-23    28% Sox record in 2010: w/Vtek:    21-9    70% w/VMart:  59-49  55% w/Cash:    9-10   47% w/Brown: 0-3       0% w/Molina: 0-2      0% When looking at the Opponent's OPS and CERA numbers when V'tek or Salty and V'tek or VMart were catching: Red : better with VTek Purple : about even Blue : better with Salty Starters: Lester: better with VTek  by about .150 in OPS & about 1.50 ERA  ('11-Salty & '10-VMart combined) Beckett: better with V'Tek  by about .150 OPS and 2.00 ERA when combining VMart and Salty over 2010-2011 (although VMart was better in 2010). (Salty's sample size is very small.) Lackey: about a tie between V'Tek and Salty , but  V'Tek better than VMart . Buchholtz :  best with VMart , 2nd/3rd about a  tie  V'tek/Salty .  (small sample sizes) Wakefield : V'Tek did not catch him in 2010, but in a small sample size this year did  VTek better than Salty . Dice-K: better with V'Tek  by about .200 in OPS and 4.00 in ERA. (Combining VMart & Salty's 2010-2011 numbers-Salty's numbers on 2 IP) Miller: better with Salty  by about .350 OPS and 3.00 ERA. (Both had under 36 IP with Miller this year)  Bedard  and  Weiland : both very small sample sizes (V'Tek slightly better with Bedard but way worse with Weiland.)  Relievers: Aceves: better with V'Tek  by about 0.50 OPS and 0.50 ERA.  (pretty balanced IP) Bard: much better with V'Tek  by about about .100 OPS and 3.00 ERA. (Better vs VMart by about .350 OPS/2.00 ERA) (pretty balanced IP) Papelbon: about even  with Salty in '11 and VMart in '10.  (pretty balanced IP) Albers: better with V'Tek  by about .100 OPS and 1.50 ERA. (pretty balanced IP) Wheeler: better with Salty  by about .100 OPS and 1.00 ERA. (VTek only 15 IP sample size.) Morales: better with VTek  by .200 OPS and 1.00 ERA. (Balanced IP, but small samples sizes for both) 2011: Better with V'Tek: 9 About tied: 3 Better with Salty: 3  (with the 3 pitchers that Salty did better, V'Tek had these IP: 30, 15, 4) Nobody is arguing that V'tek should be the FT catcher. Those days are long gone. However, when looking at V'Tek as a back-up catcher (or maybe 40% catcher like 2011), many like to point out what an awful hitter Vtek is. I think some posters are missing an intersting point. Out of the 33 MLB catchers with 250+ PAs this season, VTek placed number 17 in OPS at .723.  Our back-up catcher placed #17 out of 33!   In a sense, V'Tek is equal to the average STARTING CATCHER in MLB in OPS.  V'Tek's salary will likely be between $1M and $2M.  Are you guys really so sure you don't want him back?
    Posted by moonslav59


    yes
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    Problem is, Varitek will never be the full-time catcher, so the Sox cannot take advantage of the intangibles you suggest he offers.  And, he's got to be replaced someday...someone has got to learn to catch the pitching staff and have a winning record, and it has to be soon! That said, I would like to see Varitek and Lavarnway as the tandem next year.  I saw no evidence that he was any worse a defender than Salty.  I also think he will be a better hitter, and that Salty might have some trade value in a apckage for a RH right-fielder, or a few young prospects to fill out a rather thin minor league system.
    Posted by parhunter1


    Here are a couple of reasons to keep Salty and Lavarnway. 

    #1 Tek only had a 710 OPS against RHP with a 200 BA, while Salty had A 786 OBO, 247 BA against RHP.  Salty also throws out more runners and only had 2 more errors than Tek after playing 50 more games.  Salty gets the nod against RHP

    #2 We dont need anyone to hit lefties because Lavarnway hits better than Tek or Salty against them.  A small sample this season shows Ryan had a 295 BA and 980 OPS against lefties.  This was even evident in the minors which I don't expect to change.with Ryan.  Ryan also has a better arm than Tek or Salty.  Lavarnawy gets the nod against LHP, and throwing out runners over Salty and Tek.

    So for the team to improve it makes sense to use Lavarnway against lefties while Salty hits righties. 
    They are also the two with the best arms and age adavantage over Tek.  Even if Tek calls a good game in half the games he plays, he can't do what Salty and Ryan could do collectively to help our team in most crucial areas.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    harness, here's how I felt about Saltaralphmacchio at different stages of his career
    1. When the Sox acquired him, I heard the stories about his Mackey Sasser throwing issues to pitchers and his vast "talent."
    2. I did not think the Sox were in a position to bring in a raw catcher at the MLB level who had difficulty in short stints. It looked like a cheap way of trying to fill an important position--reminding me somewhat of how the Sox have looked at SS for the last several years, not really know what they wanted there.
    3. After VMART left, realizing the Sox would go with Salty I started to embrace at least the idea that Salty might become a better catcher.
    4. I liked what I saw early on, he was hitting, he seemed to catch all types of pitchers with some ability. He threw out a few runners.
    5. I defended him midway point, feeling the tandem of him and Tek were "working" and was as good offensively combined as any out there.
    6. He started slumping badly at the plate, and it coincided with a remarkable dropoff on defense. He was not only not throwing runners out, he was throwing balls into CF or down the LF line at 3b. Even using Wakefield as an excuse, he was botching pitches into passed balls or "wild pitches" at a frequent rate. By the last few weeks of the season, he'd become a liability. If possible worse than VMART was graded at as a catcher. Too much pressure? Maybe. Too much fatigue? Maybe because he had played more games than at any other time going back to the minors.
    .....The question here is do we want Varitek back...maybe the better question is do we really want Salty back...I don't. If that means Lavarnway learns on the job just like Salty go to this year, then so be it. I don't think anyone has been as atrocious defensively behind the Sox plate, or even as lazy as Salty. Catching in Boston should be a premium position just like Shortstop. Yet, both positions are not on the team's importance list when it comes to filling those spots. They used to be important--Fisk,Tek....Burleson,Nomar,Cabrera....now they are merely positions for the Sox to fill with lower priced talent. Defense is not a priority for either spot. It's part of why the Sox are not in the playoffs.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from summerof67. Show summerof67's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    I want Teck back so he and Gary Tuck can bring Lavarnway into the fold.

    I am beginning to wonder if Salty is a placeholder - and an inexpensive one - until that happens.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Well, for argument's sake, was the entire month of September Salty's fault or did the team collectively spit the bit?  My thinking is that for the entire season, Ellsbury, A-Gon, and Papi performed at or exceeded expectations.  Pedroia got going from June on.  Others had their shining moments or shining periods but all in all underperformed (see Crawford, Lackey, etc). 
    Posted by gareman2

    Of course it was not Salty's fault. Almsot the whole team played worse.

    The team lost with VTek as well (3-6) in September. Who knows if we lose less if tito had used VTek more down the stretch.



     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Here are a couple of reasons to keep Salty and Lavarnway.  #1 Tek only had a 710 OPS against RHP with a 200 BA, while Salty had A 786 OBO, 247 BA against RHP.  Salty also throws out more runners and only had 2 more errors than Tek after playing 50 more games.  Salty gets the nod against RHP #2 We dont need anyone to hit lefties because Lavarnway hits better than Tek or Salty against them.  A small sample this season shows Ryan had a 295 BA and 980 OPS against lefties.  This was even evident in the minors which I don't expect to change.with Ryan.  Ryan also has a better arm than Tek or Salty.   Lavarnawy gets the nod against LHP, and throwing out runners over Salty and Tek . So for the team to improve it makes sense to use Lavarnway against lefties while Salty hits righties.  They are also the two with the best arms and age adavantage over Tek.  Even if Tek calls a good game in half the games he plays, he can't do what Salty and Ryan could do collectively to help our team in most crucial areas.
    Posted by craze4sox

    Tell me why a higher CS% and OPS does not translate into more wins.
    Tell me how Salty is going to improve with our staff.
    Tell me why you think Lavarnway is going to get the best out of our staff.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    ....The question here is do we want Varitek back...maybe the better question is do we really want Salty back...I don't. If that means Lavarnway learns on the job just like Salty go to this year, then so be it. I don't think anyone has been as atrocious defensively behind the Sox plate, or even as lazy as Salty. Catching in Boston should be a premium position just like Shortstop. Yet, both positions are not on the team's importance list when it comes to filling those spots. They used to be important--Fisk,Tek....Burleson,Nomar,Cabrera....now they are merely positions for the Sox to fill with lower priced talent. Defense is not a priority for either spot. It's part of why the Sox are not in the playoffs.

    Well said, danny.

    I'dlike to add that I'm not sure how good VTek is as a teacher. 
    We hoped VMart would leaarn from the "master".
    We hoped Salty would learn quickly from the "master".

    VMart got no better after 1.5 years.
    Salty got worse.

    I also think Lavarnway can be no worse than Salty behind the plate.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Look it's hard for me to dump on Salty, I mean as a new to MLB catcher, and there were/are things I did like about him. But I did sour on him as well for some of the reasons I believe Texas had no confidence in him. I liked George Kottaras, I didn't get to see much of Kelly Shoppach, and I was indifferent on Kevin Cash, maybe didn't really care for him much either. Either way, we know Lavarnway is a capable hitter, something the Sox obviously like in their catcher, so letting him catch more next year whether a tandem or even thrown into the fire more like Salty (65 percent of the starts? or what was the breakdown?), I'm fine with that. Good point, moon, on Tek and I have to wonder if he's just ready to call it quits anyway. I don't think he showed an iota of leadership in that clubhouse in 2011. Not a thing, and if that was his way of saying "fine, go with the youngster over the Great Tek, the WS, No-Hitter Catcher" and he just did his job quietly, then his Captaincy was a bigger joke than I can imagine. To me, it's a sad way for Tek to end his career, but it appears Wakefield will get a similar fate, ending maybe on a poor note.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    If the Sox overall record was .500 or under with Salty this year, what does that say about his catching ability? This was supposed to be a superior staff with Beckett, Lester, Lackey (cough), and the great pen of Bard, Wheeler, Jenks, Aceves (superstar), and Papelbon. Under .500? And the offense was the best in baseball?Yikes. No I'm not into repeats on this one. Bye-bye, Salty, nice knowing you as a Sox. Now move on.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : The biggest issue against VTek is that an serious injury to the other catcher would force VTek to catch more than he should, or force the Sox to deal out of desperation midseason. If we are talking about the back-up or 40% catcher here, the 60% catcher should have no effect on whether it is worth keeping Vtek or not. Either he is a value in that role or he is not. At $1-2M, he clearly is, unless you eblieve the above numbers are "voodoo". The  presence of Lavarnway alleviates the injury to Salty issue in my eyes, but I would have no problem bringing in another established catcher who has a great and proven CERA and catcher intangible skillset as the 60% guy.  A Lavarnway 50-60%/ V'tek 40-50% tandem would be fine with me as well. I think salty might still have options left, but we could also deal him with his stock pretty high.
    Posted by moonslav59
    That's the biggest issue. It isn't if the opening day roster held true over 162 games.

    Any question about Tek's body at age 39 IMO were answered as his knees locked up in the 16 inning marathon in Tampa this summer and two days later it was obvious they still bothered him.

    I ask again, unless the Reds get him signed before he hits FA, why not Ramon Hernandez. Outside of Boston he thought to be every bit the pitcher's catcher that Tek is, he can hit better tha Tek, could catch 4 out of 5 starts for a 20-25 game stretch with ease and he is much better at controlling the running game.

    He costs the RS maybe $1M more. He's 5 years younger than Tek (which in baseball years is huge). He can play 1B which is a plus and probably means he could catch Wakefield (the other lingering long tiime RS). And a new manager can start without a captain (Dick Williams is somewhere smiling).

    I am not in a twist about Tek as a back-up and haven't been like some when he exercised his option for 2010. In a world where everything goes right he is more than a league average back-up.

    But IMO Hernandez is a very attractive option and far more likely to be able to catch 50-60% of the starts if that's the way the RS went. Tek can't do that IMO, his body will betray him. It doesn't make Tek a bad guy, just in baseball years and in particular catcher years a very old guy.


     
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