Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    On the whole personal catcher thing, Beckett would and eventual will find a new preference. It isn't rare for a pitcher to get comfortable with one catcher and it isn't a reflection by itself on the other catcher(s). Carlton preffered McCarver. Boone was the main guy in Philly at the time and was widley acknowledged as the best in game guy of his era. Maddux loved Eddie Perez but he found other guys but he always had a the preference of always being caught by one guy.

    And the chemistry was not over night with Tek. Those guys did not make a great tandem in 2006. And to this day, Beckett shakes off Tek a lot. But he clearly loves how Tek reacts to his pace, how Tek sets targets and frames pitches.

    Over the years of watching the RS almost every pitcher does. Of the current RS I would say only Buch really isn't crazy about working with Tek and it is just my opinion but Papelbon just does not care.

    Same argument seems to rage about Tek.

    I am not as dead against Salty as some others. he like almost everybody but Aceves, Aviles, Mac, Scoot, Pedey and most of all Ellsbury had a bad September. Salty has some work to do on his pitch blocking but he certainly solved his throwing issues to a satisfactory point and he can hit at this level for his position.

    He caught more games than Tek and therefore he caught more stinkers too. Catchers relevance has it's limits, look no further than Miller, some other outliers and of course September. Catching Wake is a royal PITA and has to wear on a catcher. i used to think that is why he was isolated off of Tek when Tek was the primary guy.

    My belief is the biggest argument against Tek as a back-up is he could not hold up under being pressed into starting duty. But the RS are better prepared to do a call-up to cover 15 - 20 game DL trip. rather than send Salty back to AAA or just trade him, if we think he could bust, why not sign a back up who can hold up catching more than 2 games a week?  Just a counter point not a stake in the ground.
     
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : He would have been catcher this year and then DH next year.  He's someone who can catch, DH or play first base.  I wanted to go with Salty andVmart.  Let Tek go.
    Posted by cpjohn1[/QUOTE]

    That means VMART would have played first base. or DH.
    Salty would have caught the bulk of the games. Team played .500 ball with Salty catching.
    How Beckett would have done with Saklty is anybody's guess. He's 11-16 w/o Tek.
    73-31 with Tek.

    It also means the team would have no spot for AGONE or Papi, both of whom were more productive than VMART.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    Same argument seems to rage about Tek.

    Same argument because the same numbers with the pitchers back him up, year in and year out.



    Salty has...caught more games than Tek and therefore he caught more stinkers too. 

    Catcher's relevance is not measured number of games, but ratio. Who each catcher catches is far more relevant.


    why not sign a back up who can hold up catching more than 2 games a week? 
    Posted by fivekatz[/QUOTE]

    Then he wouldn't be a back-up.

    I have no issues with a catching tandem. Tek/Salty hit 27 dingers/92 RBI's. Both stay fresher. If you are advocating a Hernendez/Salty tandem (which is possible), then for it to work, Hernendez has to replace what Tek gets out of the pitching staff.

    It's that simple.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]Sending Salty to AAA (last option) and going with Hernandez and Vtek makes soem sense, depeding on what RH gets for a salary. I don't think Lava is ready for major duty as a MLB catcher for 2012.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Not happening moon. Salty will not be in AAA. 
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Same argument seems to rage about Tek . Same argument because the same numbers with the pitchers back him up, year in and year out. Salty has... caught more games than Tek and therefore he caught more stinkers too.   Catcher's relevance is not measured number of games, but ratio. Who each catcher catches is far more relevant. why not sign a back up who can hold up catching more than 2 games a week?   Posted by fivekatz [/QUOTE] Then he wouldn't be a back-up. I have no issues with a catching tandem. Tek/Salty hit 27 dingers/92 RBI's. Both stay fresher. If you are advocating a Hernendez/Salty tandem (which is possible), then for it to work, Hernendez has to replace what Tek gets out of the pitching staff. It's that simple.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    How much did he do with the pitching staff when they imploded down the stretch?  And how did Beckett do with his binky? 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    How much did he do with the pitching staff when they imploded down the stretch?  And how did Beckett do with his binky? 

    Tek caught 6 games after Sept 8th. Do you really want to discount his success for years and years over 6 games?

    Besides the Sox went 3-6 with Vtek in Sept and something like 4-13 with Salty.

    If you are going to use Sept records to discount VTk'e value, then at least use the same criteria to judge Salty.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Not happening moon. Salty will not be in AAA. 
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    If Lava looks great in ST and VTek is back next year, there's nothing Salty can do to stop it.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Varitek needs to go, period!

    Hernandez needs to be signed. Salty and Lavarnway need to battle for backup spot. If all equal, start Lavarway in AAA.

    Offer Varitek a minor league contract. If he agrees, start Varitek in AAA. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Ramon is a good catcher by all I have read - he does not get to start a lot but when he did he did quite well offensively.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    He would be 36 years old however.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    The very fact Softlaw advocates his signing is a certain kiss of ...disaster.
    He'll probably bust his leg bordering the plane.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_4416657. Show user_4416657's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Varitek should start his career as a manager on some level.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : If Lava looks great in ST and VTek is back next year, there's nothing Salty can do to stop it.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Varitek probably won't be back. Unless they strip the 'C' off his chest.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichFan. Show MichFan's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    As a captain and senior member of the Sox I am as dissapointed in Vtech as I am Wakefield for allowing all the BS to go on in the clubhouse.  It's Francona's job to manage it but guys like Vtech and Wake have to stand up. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from cpjohn1. Show cpjohn1's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : That means VMART would have played first base. or DH. Salty would have caught the bulk of the games. Team played .500 ball with Salty catching. How Beckett would have done with Saklty is anybody's guess. He's 11-16 w/o Tek. 73-31 with Tek. It also means the team would have no spot for AGONE or Papi, both of whom were more productive than VMART.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    Why would that mean he plays first base or DH?  He would be the starting catcher with Salty backing him up.  He would be the DH when Ortiz was gone.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Why would that mean he plays first base or DH?  He would be the starting catcher with Salty backing him up.  He would be the DH when Ortiz was gone.
    Posted by cpjohn1[/QUOTE]

    The choice was to go with Youk at first, Beltre at third, and VMART as catcher
    with no upgrade in LF. That means no AGONE, and a DH wearing catcher's cloths.

    Or no Beltre, VMART catching, with Youk at 3rd and AGONE. No Crawford. Who plays LF? Nava? CAM? Reddick wasn't realistically in the picture then.
    Still have a DH catching with Salty as back-up. Both VMART and Salty have lousy numbers with pitching staffs compared to Tek. And Salty is too young to back-up.
    No amount of hitting from a catcher can compensate for compromising a pitching staff by that much.

    VMART is a DH for a reason.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ADG. Show ADG's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    No reason to bring Varitek back. Read Silverman in Herald today:

    1. .077 in September.
    2. .176 in 2nd half.
    3. Threw out 14% of runners.
    4. 40 years old.
    5. Where were the leadership qualities?
    6. Do you want him as your captain?
    7. Prevents Salty/Lavarnway or someone else from playing time.

    DO NOT RE-SIGN HIM.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]No reason to bring Varitek back. Read Silverman in Herald today:
    1. .077 in September. Tiny sample size and not much worse than Salty.
    2. .176 in 2nd half. He's a back-up catcher. look at MLb back-up C's.
    3. Threw out 14% of runners. Not entirely his fault & over-rated stat.
    4. 40 years old. So?
    5. Where were the leadership qualities? Do you know what he did or did not do?
    6. Do you want him as your captain? It doesn't matter. The "C" means nothing.
    7. Prevents Salty/Lavarnway or someone else from playing time.
    Look at Salty's September numbers. look at our W-L record when he caught in Sept and all year. If you really want more of that next year, defend your reasoning. Salty look4ed exhausted by year's end. Yeah, let's give him more games next year!

    DO NOT RE-SIGN HIM.

    Fine, but when the staff takes a nosedive with Salty/Lava behind the plate, I know you'll find other excuses for why it is happeneing and you'll deny it had anything to do with the loss of VTek (42-22 and 22-10 in non-Beckett games.)
    It's not a fluke. The numbers go back through all these years that VTek was a poor hitter (and not as poor as many of you imagine when compared to MLB catchers these days.)
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Time4Theo2Go. Show Time4Theo2Go's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]No reason to bring Varitek back. Read Silverman in Herald today: 1. .077 in September. 2. .176 in 2nd half. 3. Threw out 14% of runners. 4. 40 years old. 5. Where were the leadership qualities? 6. Do you want him as your captain? 7. Prevents Salty/Lavarnway or someone else from playing time. DO NOT RE-SIGN HIM.
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    Jason Varitek has been a liability for the Red Sox at the dish and behind it for 4 years in a row. Moonscrub wants Varitek, Wakefield, Timlin, Wade Miller, Julio Lugo, Bill Hall back on the Sox 2012 roster because he can cook up enough sabermetrics rotisserie fantasy baseball nonsense to justify it.

    Meanwhile the sound you just heard were the Detroit Tigers replacing the Red Sox on the list of elite AL teams.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? :
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon - You want to use stats?

    WAR Numbers:

    Salty   2.5
    Varitek 0.5
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]Here are the specific 2010 and 2011 numbers: Red denotes better numbers in sample sizes larger than 30 IP. Blue denotes better numbers in sample sizes with at least one pitcher between 13-29 IP.            (IP)    OPS    CERA Jon Lester: ‘11 V’Tek    (40)     .577    2.48  -1.29 Salty     (146) .717    3.77 Lava       (6)     .783    3.00 ‘10 VTek      (38)     .492    1.88   -1.76 VMart (136) .656    3.64 Cash      (27)    .649    3.38 Brown     (7)    .693    2.57   Josh Beckett: ‘11 V’Tek    (182)  .587    2.62   -4.84 Salty       (11)    .916    7.36 ‘10 V’Tek    (36)    .851    7.18 Vmart    (74)  .823    5.11  -2.07 Cash      (10) .947    6.97 Salty       (7) .936    3.86   John Lackey: ‘11 V’Tek    (33)     .769    6.82 Salty     (127) .874    6.31  -0.51 ‘10 V’Tek     (41)     .724    3.29  -1.52 VMart (123) .805    4.81 Salty       (22)    .646 2.86 Cash       (18)    .627    3.93 Molina    (12) .883    7.50   Clay Buchholtz: ‘11 V’Tek      (18)    .841     3.38  -0.14 Salty       (64)     .662     3.52 ‘10 V’Tek     (4)     .429    2.25 VMart (165) .603 2.13 Brown     (4) 1.041 11.25   Tim Wakefield: ’11 V’Tek     (13)  .634    4.15  -1.06 Salty     (142) .808    5.21 ‘10 V’Tek    (0)      n/a VMart (108)    .783    5.27  -0.66 Cash      (30)      .741    5.93   Daisuke Matsusaka: ‘11 V’Tek (35)    .545      3.82 Salty     (2)    1.768    31.50 ‘10 V’Tek (50)  .622    3.81   -2.09 VMart (69) .784 5.90 Cash      (23) .670 3.57 Salty      (7)    .703    5.40 Brown (6)    .584    1.50   Andrew Miller: ‘11 V’Tek    (30)    1.034    7.28 Salty    ( 35)     .681    4.08  -3.20   Erik Bedard: ‘11 V’Tek    (16)    .636    3.38  -0.48 Salty      (19)    .686    3.86   Kyle Weiland: ‘11 V’Tek (4)    1.323 13.50 Salty     (18)    .865    7.64 Lava        (3)    .200    0.00   Alfredo Aceves: ‘11 V’Tek    (42)    .580    2.34   -0.48 Salty      (67)    .642    2.82 Lava      (5)      .675    1.93   Daniel Bard: ‘11 V’Tek    (40)    .472    1.44   -3.10 Salty      (31)    .579    4.54 Lava        (2)    .889    9.00 ‘10 V’Tek    (19)    .304    0.48   -2.16 VMart    (44) .651    2.64 Cash       (7)     .247    0.00 Career: V’Tek    (80)    .523    1.79     -2.75 vs Salty/ -1.37 vs VMart Salty      (43)    .597    4.54 VMart    (51)    .669    3.16   Jonathan Papelbon ‘11 V’Tek    (26)    .536    2.45    -0.30 Salty      (36)     .516    2.75 Lava       (2)     .923 10.12 ‘10 V”Tek    (15)    .790    4.11 VMart    (40)    .629    4.02  -0.09 Cash       (9)     .572    1.00   Matt Albers: ‘11 V’Tek    (36)    .686    4.00   -1.53 Salty      (29)    .782    5.53 Lava       (1)     .900    9.00   Dan Wheeler: ‘11 V’Tek    (15)    .771    5.40 Salty      (34)    .662    4.19  -1.21   Franklin Morales: ‘11 V’Tek    (14)    .671    3.14    -1.10 Salty      (17)    .871    4.24   I think it is easy to see that VTek's influence is at least between 0.25 and 0.50 in ERA. The trend goes back way before 2010, as harness documented on his earlier thread. A case could be made that it is more like 0.75 to 1.25, but I won't go there. Although team CERA is not an accurate way to compare catchers, since each catcher has differing innings with differing pitchers, here is the final Sox numbers: VTek:  (575) .662  3.57 Salty  (856) .746  4.62 Lava  (27)   .760  4.39  
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Teks time is done, we either go with Lavarnway and what Salty has leaned.  Or make Lavarnway our DH, let Papi walk and bring in Y. Molina who has the all round game to help Salty learn even more.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : moon - You want to use stats? WAR Numbers: Salty   2.5 Varitek 0.5
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]


    YOU WANT STATS? I'LL GIVE YOU STATS! U CAN'T HANDLE THE STATS! or something like that.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from cpjohn1. Show cpjohn1's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Tek can't play forever.  It's time to let him go.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : moon - You want to use stats? WAR Numbers: Salty   2.5 Varitek 0.5
    Posted by ADG[/QUOTE]

    ADG: This stat shows that VTek is a very good "back-up". Thanks for providing further evidence to keep him... as THE BACK-UP!

    Nobody here has ever said VTek should be the full-timer over Salty. I ahppen to think we could trade salty for something good, and either get Ramon Hernandez and use VTek as the sub, or go with lavarnway and Vtek with Salty traded or starting in AAA.

    Sox: 42-22 with VTek- losing record with Salty.

    Take away beckett: Sox 22-12 in non-Beckett games. A trend that has continued through all of Vtek's horrible hitting years.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]Tek can't play forever.  It's time to let him go.
    Posted by cpjohn1[/QUOTE]

    Of course there are better catchers than Vtek out there. However, we need to spend every penny on upgrading our starting pitching, relief pitching (maybe closer), RF, and maybe DH & SS. With Salty and lavarnway, i doubt Theo will spend anything more than $1M to get a vet catcher on the roster. That's why VTek is so appealing to me...than and his success recently and over his whole career here. 
     
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