Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Hall of Fame voters would compare Varitek's offensive numbers to the numbers for other catchers.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Guys I know you love Tek and believe the team and staff could never do as well without him.  Just look at Texas "Napoli" and Detroit "Avila" both teams have new catchers who have more than one skill and look where they are.  Tek has had a great career but he is not a make or break decision as to whether our team will be successful.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    You are right: having a good or great catcher in the "intangibles" area is not the be all end all, but we should avoid knee jerk reations based on 2 successful teams this year. Yes, they prove you can win without it, but it does not mean it is not important for our team, who seems to need all the help it can get in the area of pitching. Plus, Salty & Lava are not yet close to the offensive machines that Napoli and Avila have been. They don't "make up ground" anywhere... yet.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Tek doesn't have HOF numbers but you never know.
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    It might be because you are looking at only afew numbers: CS% and offense. Catching goes way beyond the surface.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]Hall of Fame voters would compare Varitek's offensive numbers to the numbers for other catchers.
    Posted by Hfxsoxnut[/QUOTE]

    Exactly, and when you see posters comparing VTek's offense to Richie Allen and others, you can see why they look at VTek's numbers with disdain. 

    80% or more of catchers never even have one year like Harold Baines or Allen average year. 

    Look at some of the SSs who made it... why not compare Vtek's numbers to them?
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : It might be because you are looking at only afew numbers: CS% and offense. Catching goes way beyond the surface.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    moon,

    I stated those were only "some" of the more important stats. 
    The HOF standards and monitor are two areas that currently rank a player in comparison to the average player that gets inducted.  Tek will be judged on many things including the fact he has "never hit 300" his overall ranking compared to retired and active catchers, Clutch Stats, hits with runners in scoring position along with other defensive areas.  Teks done a lot of good things for Boston and had a good career I was simply telling "bobbysu" he doesn't have HOF numbers.

    Detroit brought in two new catchers in Victor and Avila.  Napoli also didn't have any problem adapting to the Texas staff.  What I'm saying is Salty and Lav aren't any different, just less experienced which comes in time.

    How do you know taking Tek out of the equation won't help our team?  It's all we have seen for 15 years, a change could be just what we need.  Catching isn't just about being experienced, or saving 1/2 to a run a game.  Our problem is, since around 2007 when Tek began to decline, we have had mostly game calling and experience out of Tek.  I'm not saying all teams have a multi talented catcher but it certainly helps.  In 04 we won the WS and Tek had a solid year hitting 296.  In 07 he began to decline but still managed to help our offense with a 255 BA and some clutch hits.  From 2008 to present we have had little support and players brought in have had mediocre talent.  Until we find that "in the prime" Tek it won't help our club much.  Hopefully with a lot of hard work Lavarnway or Salty can be that guy.  Tek can't save our staff, our staff needs to be chosen correctly and perform up to their own standards regardless who catches them.. 

    I wouldn't mind seeing Tek in some sort of coaching role but I don't feel we shouldn't bring him back as a player. 
    Let the youngsters fight it out, with the correct staff they should be just fine.  We shouldn't be comparing Salty and Lavarnways CERA stats to Tek, he has been in the league 15 years but unfortunately now has limited skills in other areas and should move on. 
     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Time4Theo2Go. Show Time4Theo2Go's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]Get rid of him
    Posted by jackbu[/QUOTE]

    Get rid of Varitek?
    Or in other words, what Law said in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011.

    Theo Epstein: Worst GM in MLB.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    harness, I'm curious about your take on this: which stat or metric best reflects who you think were the best pitchers last year and over the last 3 years?

    WAR or ERA?

    2011 
    WAR top 10:     ERA top 10
    Halliday           Kershaw
    Sabathia          Halliday
    Verlander         CLee
    Kershaw           Verlander
    C.Lee                Weaver
    D Haren            Lincecum
    CJ Wilson         Hamels
    J Weaver          Vogelsong
    Hernandez       Shields
    Bumgarner      Fister

    2009-2011 
    WAR                     ERA
    Halliday         Wainwright
    Verlander      Halliday
    CLee               Kershaw
    Sabathia        Hernandez
    Hernandez    Vogelson
    Greinke          Lincecum
    Lincecum      CLee
    Haren            Cain
    Jimenez        Carpenter
    Lester            Weaver
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : moon, I stated those were only "some" of the more important stats.  The HOF standards and monitor are two areas that currently rank a player in comparison to the average player that gets inducted.  Tek will be judged on many things including the fact he has "never hit 300" his overall ranking compared to retired and active catchers, Clutch Stats, hits with runners in scoring position along with other defensive areas.  Teks done a lot of good things for Boston and had a good career I was simply telling "bobbysu" he doesn't have HOF numbers. Detroit brought in two new catchers in Victor and Avila.  Napoli also didn't have any problem adapting to the Texas staff.  What I'm saying is Salty and Lav aren't any different, just less experienced which comes in time. How do you know taking Tek out of the equation won't help our team?  It's all we have seen for 15 years, a change could be just what we need.  Catching isn't just about being experienced, or saving 1/2 to a run a game.   Our problem is, since around 2007 when Tek began to decline, we have had mostly game calling and experience out of Tek.  I'm not saying all teams have a multi talented catcher but it certainly helps.  In 04 we won the WS and Tek had a solid year hitting 296.  In 07 he began to decline but still managed to help our offense with a 255 BA and some clutch hits.  From 2008 to present we have had little support and players brought in have had mediocre talent.  Until we find that "in the prime" Tek it won't help our club much.  Hopefully with a lot of hard work Lavarnway or Salty can be that guy.  Tek can't save our staff, our staff needs to be chosen correctly and perform up to their own standards regardless who catches them..  I wouldn't mind seeing Tek in some sort of coaching role but I don't feel we shouldn't bring him back as a player.  Let the youngsters fight it out, with the correct staff they should be just fine.  We shouldn't be comparing Salty and Lavarnways CERA stats to Tek, he has been in the league 15 years but unfortunately now has limited skills in other areas and should move on. 
    Posted by craze4sox[/QUOTE]

    These two statements are contradicting themselves.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]harness, I'm curious about your take on this: which stat or metric best reflects who you think were the best pitchers last year and over the last 3 years? WAR or ERA? 2011  WAR top 10:     ERA top 10 Halliday           Kershaw Sabathia          Halliday Verlander         CLee Kershaw           Verlander C.Lee                Weaver D Haren            Lincecum CJ Wilson         Hamels J Weaver          Vogelsong Hernandez       Shields Bumgarner      Fister 2009-2011  WAR                     ERA Halliday         Wainwright Verlander      Halliday CLee               Kershaw Sabathia        Hernandez Hernandez    Vogelson Greinke          Lincecum Lincecum      CLee Haren            Cain Jimenez        Carpenter Lester            Weaver
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Too close to call.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Too close to call.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    So, maybe WAR is not as flawed as you thought  or ERA is more flawed than you thought?

    ERA needs to be adjusted for venue as you have been saying for a while now.

    ERA needs to be adjusted for defense behind the starter.

    ERA is greatly effected by the catcher, as we both have been saying for a long time

    ERA has several flaws, and so does WAR. 

    I think we both know that several stats (and metrics) can and should be used to judge pitchers. None by themselves tell the whole story.

    When I look at the 2009-2011 top 10. I think the WAR list is closer to who I think is better than the ERA list that favors NL pitchers in big home parks.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : So, maybe WAR is not as flawed as you thought  or ERA is more flawed than you thought? ERA needs to be adjusted for venue as you have been saying for a while now. ERA needs to be adjusted for defense behind the starter. ERA is greatly effected by the catcher, as we both have been saying for a long time ERA has several flaws, and so does WAR.  I think we both know that several stats (and metrics) can and should be used to judge pitchers. None by themselves tell the whole story. When I look at the 2009-2011 top 10. I think the WAR list is closer to who I think is better than the ERA list that favors NL pitchers in big home parks.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Yes. All stats are flawed, just as all humans are.
    When I here someone make an outlandish statement, I have to question the source.
    And when I see a stat - any stat - take Lackey over Buch last year, I have to question that source as well.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Get rid of him                     

    Yes, we are sure! Are you off the wagon again, or back into the HGH.........................
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Yes . I'm sure ..  We dont want Varitek back 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Yes. All stats are flawed, just as all humans are.
    When I here someone make an outlandish statement, I have to question the source.
    And when I see a stat - any stat - take Lackey over Buch last year, I have to question that source as well


    I agree. While I do think Lackey's 2010 was not as bad as many thought it was, and maybe Buch was not as good as his ERA said he was, there's no way Lackey was better than Buchholtz in '10.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 1958lesspaul. Show 1958lesspaul's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Timmy T-Ball is worse than his ERA says he was. 
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Yes. All stats are flawed, just as all humans are. When I here someone make an outlandish statement, I have to question the source. And when I see a stat - any stat - take Lackey over Buch last year, I have to question that source as well.
    Posted by harness[/QUOTE]

    There's some interesting stats coming into fashon, such as tERA and SIERA. Here's a look at the Sox starters...

             tERA  SIERA
    Beck 3.82   3.43
    Lest  3.93   3.59
    Buch 3.78   4.23
    Wake 4.92  4.61
    Lack  5.41  4.50
    Miller 6.18  4.91

     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : There's some interesting stats coming into fashon, such as tERA and SIERA. Here's a look at the Sox starters...          tERA  SIERABeck 3.82   3.43 Lest  3.93   3.59 Buch 3.78   4.23 Wake 4.92  4.61 Lack  5.41  4.50 Miller 6.18  4.91
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    Caution: You are now entering 791 territory.
    Please roll the windows up and shut off your radios...
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]Timmy T-Ball is worse than his ERA says he was. 
    Posted by 1958lesspaul[/QUOTE]

    ERA can talk? Do you say this about Lackey? Or is it ok for a guy 14 years Wake's junior to be the most terrible SP in all of baseball. I guess as long as you aren't old and aren't a knuckleballer, it's ok by you that a pitcher throw in the high 6s, and not get through 4 or 5 innings. Bedard couldn't go 5, Miller had how many starts where he imploded before 5? How did the rookies that Wake "got in the way of" do? Doubront? Weiland? Aceves did how well in a SP role for Sox? Maybe Tim stiffed you for an autograph or something, but it's time you shut the fck up about him. He's not the problem, never was.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Caution: You are now entering 791 territory.
    Please roll the windows up and shut off your radios...

    LOL!
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : There's some interesting stats coming into fashon, such as tERA and SIERA. Here's a look at the Sox starters...          tERA  SIERA Beck 3.82   3.43 Lest  3.93   3.59 Buch 3.78   4.23 Wake 4.92  4.61 Lack  5.41  4.50 Miller 6.18  4.91
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]

    All this talk about Ruben Sierra and Rod Meatball Beck?
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    We could have used those two (in their prime).
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Of course it was not Salty's fault. Almsot the whole team played worse. The team lost with VTek as well (3-6) in September. Who knows if we lose less if tito had used VTek more down the stretch.
    Posted by moonslav59[/QUOTE]



    I never want to see this useless, greedy bum in a Sox uniform again. And if they have a night for him, I hope it rains cats and dogs.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from beavis. Show beavis's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Ask Crawford, he knows about the "Captain"...
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from craze4sox. Show craze4sox's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : I never want to see this useless, greedy bum in a Sox uniform again. And if they have a night for him, I hope it rains cats and dogs.
    Posted by greenapplesplatters[/QUOTE]

    Both Wake and Tek deserve a huge fairwell ceremony for all their years of service.  15 years for Tek and 19 for Wake is something to be proud of in itself but I would just love to see some fresh new faces to replace Drew, Wake and Tek.  Our team lacks veteran leadership like we once had. 

    It will be interesting to see how well we do without Tek so we can finally put some of these debates to rest with CERA vs more offensive production, a higher CS% and whatever defense the two youngsters mature into the next couple of years, if given the opportunity.


    My ultimate goal would be to see a little better defense than Victor which we had in Tek, with some nice offense and a good arm.  Hard to find?  Yup, but possible and Lavarnway seems to have a good chance unless he becomes our DH.  Even Tek didn't start hitting well until his 2nd or 3rd year in the league so anything is possible with Salty as well.
     

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