Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
     The staff fell apart this year on the captain's watch. I'll take my chances---and give my support---to whomever takes his place. All ballplayers get old and their time to leave the game comes. That happened to Varitek a few years ago but he didn't get the message.
    Posted by trouts



    If 42-22 is "falling apart", I'll take 3 V'Teks to split duty next year.

    The staff fell apart under Salty's watch (47-49).

    I think the "message" has been missed by you.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : Moon - So how did the staff do this year when it counted under Jason 'C' Varitek? You can present all the stats you want, but how did September go?
    Posted by ADG


    V'Tek sat on the bench for most of it after a very good August offensively. He played only 6 games after September 8th. If you want to blame the collapse on our back-up catcher, I can't stop you. The Sox went 3-6 with VT'ek in September. I'm not saying we make the playoffs if VTek plays more, but I certainly don't blame him any more than others. 

    By the way, if you want to get technical and play the small sample size game, the Sox were 4-13 when Salty caught in September. If we had had V'Teks .333 Spt winning percent in Salty's games, we're in.

    Why aren't you calling for Salty's release or trade. I won't even get into all his PBs, WPs allowed and bad throws in September.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from hambonawilliams. Show hambonawilliams's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Look...if not for the fact that Tek's ex took him to the cleaners in a divorce settlement, he wouldn't even be playing anymore...get real..screw the stats, and who is and isn't catching...pitchers get the catcher the manager says will catch, period...too many spoiled tittibabies pitching on this team are getting their own way and that's why this team is a miserable collection of drek right now....Tek HAS to go...he's a team captain who doesn't LEAD, in the open, out front...he shouldn't BE a team captain...if not, why is he on the team at all....Theo got Salty, and guess what, another failure (quell surprise!)....while they have a dearth of backstops, Tek ain't the answer....time for new blood...

    GET RID OF THE BROKEN DOWN OLD MAN MILLSTONE CALLED TEK!!!!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from hambonawilliams. Show hambonawilliams's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Moon...you have a bloody mancrush on TEK...dangerous stuff...LMAO!
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikezep61. Show mikezep61's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : If 42-22 is "falling apart", I'll take 3 V'Teks to split duty next year. The staff fell apart under Salty's watch (47-49). I think the "message" has been missed by you.
    Posted by moonslav59


    We'll geez Moon, after all, Tek is the personal caddie for our ace and also caught quite a few of Lesters starts.  They leave Wakey to Salty (since Tek wouldn't catch the knuckler if his life depended on it), as well as all the other slugs on our starting pitching staff (who blow regardless of who is catching).  Whoever is catching the #1 & #2 the most should have a better record, no?

    Salty caught over 85% of Lackey & Wakefield's innings.  The comparison is ridiculous.  Now I'm not defending Salty because I KNOW he is not the answer, but your record comparison is absurd -- let's have Tek catch 85% of Lackey & Wakefield's innings next year and see if the team has a better record with the other catcher (whoever it may be).  I'll put my hard-earned cash on that one.

    It's about the PITCHER --- not the catcher. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : I'm a big fan of Tek's and I would be fine with him returning as our B/U...The reality is whenever we try to arrive at his impact on the club the sample is skewed by two facts. Varitek always catches Beckett and never catches Wake. Also with the pennent on the line, with Varitek behind the plate, Beckett lost twice to the O's when we needed a W and Lester with the rookie behind the dish gave us a quality start...During the month of Septmeber when we needed our pitching staff to step up...Varitek had little positive effect, that's a fact...
    Posted by Beantowne



    Hey Bean:

    I crunched the numbers about a month ago and even with Beckett and Wake taken out of the equation, the numbers still favored Tek.

    The reason his impact was small in Sept. was because he only caught 9 games, and the rotation was in free-fall from injuries and poor form due to coming back (too soon?) from injuries.

    Tek's career body of work with pitchers speaks for itself.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Red Sox record with Tek catching in September: 3-6

    Miller -   2 starts - 17 earned runs in games (WHERE WAS TEK'S VALUE???)
    Lester - 1 start -    9 earned runs in game   (WHERE WAS TEK'S VALUE???)
    Lackey - 3 starts - 17 earned runs in games (Now Tek knows how Salty feels)

    Beckett - 3 starts - 1-2 record w/ 4.24 ERA) 

    So not only was Tek's hitting non-existent in September, but his alleged influence on the pitchers was non-existent as well (despite being the catcher in 4 starts from our number one and number two pitchers).

    Ok, 6 game sample size. Why not disect Salty's 4-13 record in September (that counts his 8 innings in our 14 inning win)?

    Besides Jon Lester and Josh Beckett who was a great pitcher before he came to the Sox, which Red Sox starting pitchers have progressed under Jason Varitek's tutelage over the past few years???  

    I'm not asking if Tek was better than an even more inferior 2nd or 3rd string catcher, but I'm asking how many starting pitchers over the past few years have actually benefitted from pitching to Tek?  Certainly not Dice-K.  Certainly not Lackey.  Certainly not Brad Penny.  Certainly not John Smoltz.  Certainly not Miller.  So who?  

    Umm, just about everyone, except Miller and Buch (and they have had small sample sizes with V'Tek).

    Catcher's don't make bad pitchers great, they just help get the best out of them more often than not.

    1) Why bypass Lester? He clearly has done way better with V'Tek.
    '11  2.48 to 3.77 (Salty)
    '10  1.88 to 3.64 (VMart)

    2) Dice-K?
    career:
    V'Tek   4.00
    VMart   5.47
    Salty  11.42 

    3) Lackey
    '11 w VTek  6.82 (.760 opp's OPS) in just 33 IP/ w Salty  6.31  (.874 opp's OPS)
    '10 w VTek  3.29 (.724) in 41 IP/ w VMart 4.81 (.805) in 122 IP

    4) Penny
    VTek  5.01/ VMart 9.90

    5) Smoltz was 42 coming off an injury in his last MLB season:
    VTek  6.54  (31.2)/ Kottaras 10.80 (5)/ VMart 18.90 (3.1)

    6) Aceves
    VTek 2.34 (.580 in 42.1 IP/ Salty 2.82 (.642) in 67 IP

    7) Matt Albers
    VTek 4.00 (.686) in 36 IP/ Salty 5.53 (.782) in 27.2 IP

    8) Masterson
    career in Boston:
    Vtek 3.52 (.695) in 127.2 IP/ Kottaras 6.52 (.839) in 9.2 IP/K.Cash 3.15 (.732) in 20 IP

    9) Okajima
    '10 VTek  5.27 (.669)/ VMart 4.91 (.973)
    '09 VTek  2.53 (.357)/ VMart 4.00 (.400)/ Kottaras 6.75 (.524)
    '08 VTek  1.30 (.492)/ KCash 8.49 (1.058)
    '07 VTek  2.68 (.590) in 57 IP/ Mirabelli 0.00 (.373) in 11 IP 

    How about Daniel Bard with a much more balanced sample sizes?
    '11 VTek  1.44 (31.1 IP)/ Salty 4.54  (39.2 IP)
    '10 VTek  0.48 (18.2 IP)/ VMart 2.64 (44.1 IP)
    '09 VTek  2.97 (30.1 IP)/ VMart 6.43 (7.0)/ Kottaras 4.15 (8.2) 
    career:
    VTek  1.79 (80.1)
    VMart 3.16 (51.1)
    Salty  4.54 (41.2)

    You can't say Buchholz since he's preferred to pitch to Victor Martinez and Salty (and done quite well).  Proof positive:  over his last 8 starts in 2011, Salty started every one of Buchholz's starts (the Red Sox went 7-1, and Buchholz gave up 0, 2, 0, 2, 3, 5, 1, & 1 earned run).  

    Yes, Buch has done very very well with both Salty and VMart. He hasn't pitched much with VTek since 2009. 

    Proof positive of what? As with any stat, there are always sample sizes that go the other way.

    So how come Tek can only succeed with horses like Lester & Beckett?  If he's as good as his press clippings, how come he hasn't been able to have a positive impact over any other starting pitcher besides Lester & Beckett in the past few years?  In fact, a very easy argument can be made that Beckett has underachieved and not fulfilled his potential as a starting pitcher for the Sox.

    He was a bit inconsistent with Florida as well, but he's been amazingly consistent with Beckett.(VTek 3.68 (.670)/ VMart 5.48 (862)/ Salty 6.00 (.924)/Kottaras 10.32 (1.059)/ Cash 6.97 (.947)

    Out of the top 15 pitchers this year by IP, 9 did better with VTek, 3 did about even, and 3 did better with Salty (in those 3, VTek caught those guys 30 IP, 14 Ip and 4 IP)

    Please check your facts before you go off like this.

    It's a pretty easy argument to make that Beckett is going to have to lose his binky and become a professional by pitching to someone other than his buddy (who he wants to keep gainfully employed in this tough economy).  Lester will bounce back and have a great year regardless of who's catching his pitches. 

    More like 9 guys will have to drop their "binky".
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    We'll geez Moon, after all, Tek is the personal caddie for our ace and also caught quite a few of Lesters starts.  They leave Wakey to Salty (since Tek wouldn't catch the knuckler if his life depended on it), as well as all the other slugs on our starting pitching staff (who blow regardless of who is catching).  Whoever is catching the #1 & #2 the most should have a better record, no?

    Salty caught over 85% of Lackey & Wakefield's innings.  The comparison is ridiculous.  Now I'm not defending Salty because I KNOW he is not the answer, but your record comparison is absurd -- let's have Tek catch 85% of Lackey & Wakefield's innings next year and see if the team has a better record with the other catcher (whoever it may be).  I'll put my hard-earned cash on that one.

    You don't get it. Compare pitcher by pitcher and see how many do better when Vtek or Salty catches them.

    Last year, VMart was Buch's exclusive caddy. The year before, VTek caught almost all of Penny, Smoltz and Byrd.

    This year Salty caught almost all of Lester as well...how'd that work out? (We won about as much as we lost when Lester pitched)..hmm...

    We were 22-12 in VTek games with pitchers not named Beckett.

    Look again:

     (IP)  OPS  CERA

    Jon Lester:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .577  2.48  -1.29

    Salty   (146) .717  3.77

    Lava     (6)   .783  3.00

    ‘10

    VTek    (38)  .492  1.88   -1.76

    VMart (136) .656  3.64

    Cash    (27)  .649  3.38

    Brown   (7)  .693  2.57

     

    Josh Beckett:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (182) .587  2.62   -4.84

    Salty     (11)  .916  7.36

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (36)  .851  7.18

    Vmart  (74) .823  5.11  -2.07

    Cash    (10) .947  6.97

    Salty     (7) .936  3.86

     

    John Lackey:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (33)   .769  6.82

    Salty   (127) .874  6.31  -0.51

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (41)  .724  3.29  -1.52

    VMart (123) .805  4.81

    Salty     (22)  .646 2.86

    Cash     (18)  .627  3.93

    Molina  (12) .883  7.50

     

    Clay Buchholtz:

    ‘11

    V’Tek    (18)  .841  3.38  -0.14

    Salty     (64)  .662  3.52

    ‘10

    V’Tek   (4)   .429  2.25

    VMart (165) .603 2.13

    Brown   (4) 1.041 11.25

     

    Tim Wakefield:

    ’11

    V’Tek   (13) .634  4.15  -1.06

    Salty   (142) .808  5.21

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (0)    n/a

    VMart (108)  .783  5.27  -0.66

    Cash    (30)   .741  5.93

     

    Daisuke Matsusaka:

    ‘11

    V’Tek (35)  .545   3.82

    Salty   (2)  1.768  31.50

    ‘10

    V’Tek (50) .622  3.81   -2.09

    VMart (69) .784 5.90

    Cash    (23) .670 3.57

    Salty    (7)  .703  5.40

    Brown (6)  .584  1.50

     

    Andrew Miller:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (30)  1.034  7.28

    Salty   (35)   .681  4.08  -3.20

     

    Erik Bedard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (16)  .636  3.38  -0.48

    Salty    (19)  .686  3.86

     

    Kyle Weiland:

    ‘11

    V’Tek (4)  1.323 13.50

    Salty   (18)  .865  7.64

    Lava      (3)  .200  0.00

     

    Alfredo Aceves:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (42)  .580  2.34   -0.48

    Salty    (67)  .642  2.82

    Lava    (5)    .675  1.93

     

    Daniel Bard:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (40)  .472  1.44   -3.10

    Salty    (31)  .579  4.54

    Lava      (2)  .889  9.00

    ‘10

    V’Tek  (19)  .304  0.48   -2.16

    VMart  (44) .651  2.64

    Cash     (7)   .247  0.00

    Career:

    V’Tek  (80)  .523  1.79     -2.75 vs Salty/ -1.37 vs VMart

    Salty    (43)  .597  4.54

    VMart  (51)  .669  3.16

     

    Jonathan Papelbon

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (26)  .536  2.45    -0.30

    Salty    (36)  .516  2.75

    Lava     (2)   .923 10.12

    ‘10

    V”Tek  (15)  .790  4.11

    VMart  (40)  .629  4.02  -0.09

    Cash     (9)   .572  1.00

     

    Matt Albers:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (36)  .686  4.00   -1.53

    Salty    (29)  .782  5.53

    Lava     (1)   .900  9.00

     

    Dan Wheeler:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (15)  .771  5.40

    Salty    (34)  .662  4.19  -1.21

     

    Franklin Morales:

    ‘11

    V’Tek  (14)  .671  3.14    -1.10

    Salty    (17)  .871  4.24

     


     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    good gosh man get a hold of yourself. If Tek mattered that much they would have had him catch a heck of a lot more in September, will you guys stop with the numbers already.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BeaconHill19. Show BeaconHill19's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Burrito and Harness are the same poster. I just wanted to alert everyone. They enjoy putting on their charade and fooling everyone.
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Damn Moon, ya beat me to it!
    But you won't top that youtube. I've been saving it for "Mikey".

    To prevent Burrito from having a future statizoid,and to save time, Tek bashers will not acknowledge the data anyway. And surely not after this year. So, these threads are no longer informative to the closed-minds. Never were. We learned that.

    All the past balls and weak throws don't negate the team playing .667 ball with Tek, and below .500 without him. But you'll be pissing in the wind before any of it will sink in.

    Can't get logic across to an angry mob. No way.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from fivekatz. Show fivekatz's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Few US cities could generate this long a thread about a back-up catcher who will be 40 at the start of the 2012 season.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    If u2 have not made your points by now then the issue lies with you... have you not made your point?

    If Tek cannot hit the ball after August 1st every year, and cannot catch even 50% of the games, and now cannot be a difference maker with a pitcher if that pitcher has recently stubbed his toe or sprained his ankle than please realize how little his value really is.

    Most of what you say only comes to pass if the world is perfect, and it is not perfect.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from harness. Show harness's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Well Katz, that's because Tek/Wake have over 27 years playing in front of the same fans. The discussion is more about that...compared to tomorrow's question marks.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mikezep61. Show mikezep61's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    Red Sox record with Tek catching in September: 3-6 Miller -   2 starts - 17 earned runs in games (WHERE WAS TEK'S VALUE???) Lester - 1 start -    9 earned runs in game   (WHERE WAS TEK'S VALUE???) Lackey - 3 starts - 17 earned runs in games (Now Tek knows how Salty feels) Beckett - 3 starts - 1-2 record w/ 4.24 ERA)  So not only was Tek's hitting non-existent in September, but his alleged influence on the pitchers was non-existent as well (despite being the catcher in 4 starts from our number one and number two pitchers). Ok, 6 game sample size. Why not disect Salty's 4-13 record in September (that counts his 8 innings in our 14 inning win)? Besides Jon Lester and Josh Beckett who was a great pitcher before he came to the Sox, which Red Sox starting pitchers have progressed under Jason Varitek's tutelage over the past few years???   I'm not asking if Tek was better than an even more inferior 2nd or 3rd string catcher, but I'm asking how many starting pitchers over the past few years have actually benefitted from pitching to Tek?  Certainly not Dice-K.  Certainly not Lackey.  Certainly not Brad Penny.  Certainly not John Smoltz.  Certainly not Miller.  So who?   Umm, just about everyone, except Miller and Buch (and they have had small sample sizes with V'Tek). Catcher's don't make bad pitchers great, they just help get the best out of them more often than not. 1) Why bypass Lester? He clearly has done way better with V'Tek. '11  2.48 to 3.77 (Salty) '10  1.88 to 3.64 (VMart) 2) Dice-K? career: V'Tek   4.00 VMart   5.47 Salty  11.42  3) Lackey '11 w VTek  6.82 (.760 opp's OPS) in just 33 IP/ w Salty  6.31  (.874 opp's OPS) '10 w VTek  3.29 (.724) in 41 IP/ w VMart 4.81 (.805) in 122 IP 4) Penny VTek  5.01/ VMart 9.90 5) Smoltz was 42 coming off an injury in his last MLB season: VTek  6.54  (31.2)/ Kottaras 10.80 (5)/ VMart 18.90 (3.1) 6) Aceves VTek 2.34 (.580 in 42.1 IP/ Salty 2.82 (.642) in 67 IP 7) Matt Albers VTek 4.00 (.686) in 36 IP/ Salty 5.53 (.782) in 27.2 IP 8) Masterson career in Boston: Vtek 3.52 (.695) in 127.2 IP/ Kottaras 6.52 (.839) in 9.2 IP/K.Cash 3.15 (.732) in 20 IP 9) Okajima '10 VTek  5.27 (.669)/ VMart 4.91 (.973) '09 VTek  2.53 (.357)/ VMart 4.00 (.400)/ Kottaras 6.75 (.524) '08 VTek  1.30 (.492)/ KCash 8.49 (1.058) '07 VTek  2.68 (.590) in 57 IP/ Mirabelli 0.00 (.373) in 11 IP  How about Daniel Bard with a much more balanced sample sizes? '11 VTek  1.44 (31.1 IP)/ Salty 4.54  (39.2 IP) '10 VTek  0.48 (18.2 IP)/ VMart 2.64 (44.1 IP) '09 VTek  2.97 (30.1 IP)/ VMart 6.43 (7.0)/ Kottaras 4.15 (8.2)  career: VTek  1.79 (80.1) VMart 3.16 (51.1) Salty  4.54 (41.2) You can't say Buchholz since he's preferred to pitch to Victor Martinez and Salty (and done quite well).  Proof positive:  over his last 8 starts in 2011, Salty started every one of Buchholz's starts (the Red Sox went 7-1, and Buchholz gave up 0, 2, 0, 2, 3, 5, 1, & 1 earned run).   Yes, Buch has done very very well with both Salty and VMart. He hasn't pitched much with VTek since 2009.  Proof positive of what? As with any stat, there are always sample sizes that go the other way. So how come Tek can only succeed with horses like Lester & Beckett?  If he's as good as his press clippings, how come he hasn't been able to have a positive impact over any other starting pitcher besides Lester & Beckett in the past few years?  In fact, a very easy argument can be made that Beckett has underachieved and not fulfilled his potential as a starting pitcher for the Sox. He was a bit inconsistent with Florida as well, but he's been amazingly consistent with Beckett.(VTek 3.68 (.670)/ VMart 5.48 (862)/ Salty 6.00 (.924)/Kottaras 10.32 (1.059)/ Cash 6.97 (.947) Out of the top 15 pitchers this year by IP, 9 did better with VTek, 3 did about even, and 3 did better with Salty (in those 3, VTek caught those guys 30 IP, 14 Ip and 4 IP) Please check your facts before you go off like this. It's a pretty easy argument to make that Beckett is going to have to lose his binky and become a professional by pitching to someone other than his buddy (who he wants to keep gainfully employed in this tough economy).  Lester will bounce back and have a great year regardless of who's catching his pitches.  More like 9 guys will have to drop their "binky".
    Posted by moonslav59


    As I clearly mentioned in my post, I did not want to compare Varitek to Salty or other backups we had in the past, because I don't believe they're the answer either.  Saying V-Tek is worthwile because Salty stinks worse is not going to improve the Red Sox.

    Given his inability to hit after the All-Star break and his inability to throw anyone out, I honestly believe that anyone who defends Varitek probably is either a family member or friend (or friend of a friend - or Tek signed an autograph for someone - it's obvious that there's a personal connection - some connection).  I don't know Tek, nor have I ever met him.  I just know the guy needs to go. 

    Why should an organization that has a $160 million+ payroll and sells out every game for 8 years keep a guy that has hit .157 over the past three seasons after the All-Star break, .129 in September over the past FOUR seasons, and .174 in September over the past SEVEN seasons?  Why should an organization settle for such an incredibly mind-blowing display of pure inepitude?  Where is the accountability for being such a TERRIBLE hitter (especially in the clutch) and thrower?  Should the bar really be set that low for a "marquee" organization that a good hitting pitcher in the NL can blow away those stats?

    Tek only started in 34 non-Josh Beckett games this year anyway.  The Sox were 8-7 in Tek games started by our other current starting rotation (Lester, Wakefield, Lackey, and Bedard).

    I'm POSITIVE I don't want Tek back  --- and I don't want Salty back either.  Excluding our beloved captain, have you ever seen a player swing and miss more than Salty?  It's amazing.

    The organization has had many, many years to develop/trade for a good catcher.  Once again, Theo's incompetence shines through.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Go ahead and take away Beckett's numbers from VTek and keep lester's with Salty. This are the adjusted numbers:
    (Warning: this is not how CERA is supposed to be used)

    VTek  4.01 CERA
    Salty  4.62 CERA


    Here are the PAs with each catcher
               Salty  VTek
    Beck     52     715
    Lest    610    147
    Lack    591   135
    Wake  624      53
    Buch   265      88
    Acev   282    173
    Bard   140     115
    Paps   139     103
    Miller  156     154
    Whee 142        59
    Alber  127     156
    Atch     91        31
    Weil     86         22
    Beda    84        67
    Mora    74        57


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    [QUOTE]good gosh man get a hold of yourself. If Tek mattered that much they would have had him catch a heck of a lot more in September...

    That's only if you think the the wise Tito pays attention to these types of things. He benched VTek in the playoffs in 2008 for the better hitter.

    He neglected to do anything about the fact that Salty was falling apart in every aspect of catching skills.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? :
    good gosh man get a hold of yourself. If Tek mattered that much they would have had him catch a heck of a lot more in September... That's only if you think the the wise Tito pays attention to these types of things. He benched VTek in the playoffs in 2008 for the better hitter. He neglected to do anything about the fact that Salty was falling apart in every aspect of catching skills.
    Posted by moonslav59


    I think you mean 2009.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Mike, you made two telling points:

    We haven't won a single playoff game in three years with Captain Tek on the roster despite having one of the highest payrolls in MLB.

    V'Tek hasn't caught one playoff inning the last 3 years. Tito didn't allow V'Tek to catch in 2009.

    Besides Jon Lester and Josh Beckett who was a great pitcher before he came to the Sox, which Red Sox starting pitchers have progressed under Jason Varitek's tutelage over the past few years???  

    Did you expect a 42 year old Smoltz to "progress" with any catcher?
    Did you expect Penny to "progress"?
    Miller, Weiland, Bedard, Doubront and the few others have tiny sample sizes.
    Dice-K progressed well, before getting hurt.

    I know you said starters, but several relievers have done amazingly well with VTek.

    No catcher can turn a mediocre or bad pitcher into a good one. They can, however, get the most out of them or let them go astray.

     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Moon - thanks for staying on topic.  We may have a difference of opinion here, but that's what the board is all about.  Respectful discourse.

    When I mentioned that we hadn't won a single playoff game in three years, I was also making reference to the fact that we hadn't even made the playoffs the past two seasons with a HUGE payroll and Tek on the roster.

    I'm also not saying that the starting pitchers necessarily would have progressed with anyone else, but given Tek's rep in the game you would think that someone other than Beckett or Lester would have had some decent success over the past few seasons with Tek. Needless to say, Theo certainly holds a lot of that bag as well.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Moon, when ya do the tango with this fool for 600 posts covering three threads, like I stupidly did in 2009, you'll shake UR head and say to me: "Why didn't you warn me!".

    It's all about a catcher's hitting with him. Save time and show how much a catcher has to hit to compensate for minimal "CERA": difference. You may cut it down by 300 posts.

    But I doubt it.
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    Moon - thanks for staying on topic.  We may have a difference of opinion here, but that's what the board is all about.  Respectful discourse. When I mentioned that we hadn't won a single playoff game in three years, I was also making reference to the fact that we hadn't even made the playoffs the past two seasons with a HUGE payroll and Tek on the roster. I'm also not saying that the starting pitchers necessarily would have progressed with anyone else, but given Tek's rep in the game you would think that someone other than Beckett or Lester would have had some decent success over the past few seasons with Tek. Needless to say, Theo certainly holds a lot of that bag as well.
    Posted by mikezep61

    Name a good pitcher who should have, but didn't "progress" with VTek. Theo has provided this team with guys like Smoltz, Penny, Byrd, Bedard, and eratic kids like Miller. Some of these and the rest have been tiny sample sizes. I thought VTek did a very good job with Dice-K. I don't blame Vtek for Dice-K's injuries. Buch did poorly with VTek a few years back, and Vtek hasn't really had a chance to catch him the last 2 years. It's fair to bring up his name, but I think it doesn't prove much except that no stat or data is perfect and follows the trend with every pitcher, every year.

    I get what you mean about us not making the playoffs for 2 of the last 3 years (and an early exit in the 3rd), but I really don't see it as being V'Tek's fault at all. He's been our back-up catcher for 2.5 years. When he catches, we win way more than when he doesn't (even in non-Beckett games). V'Tek has not kept any great catching prospects down. His contract cost has not restricted Theo from upgrading other areas at all. 

    I guess I just don't get all the hoopla about dumping our back-up catcher, as if that is a major reason we are failing.

     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    Moon , when ya do the tango with this fool for 600 posts covering three threads, like I stupidly did in 2009, you'll shake UR head and say to me: "Why didn't you warn me!". It's all about a catcher's hitting with him. Save time and show how much a catcher has to hit to compensate for minimal "CERA": difference. You may cut it down by 300 posts. But I doubt it.
    Posted by harness

    I like to give people the benefit of doubt, but I'll be vigilant.

    As for the hitting catcher argument. I've shown that is lame as well.

    VTek would place about #16 among FULL TIME CATCHERS this year in OPS. I even did a study of 2009-2011 top 30 catchers in PAs: VTek is 23rd. (The list includes VMart and Napoli, who really are not FT catchers).

    23rd out of the 30 FT MLB catchers...in OFFENSE!  Since 2009!

    The fact is, there just aren't many good hitting catchers.

    I'll take the 23rd best offensive catcher and one of the best handlers of pitchers in MLB as my back-up anyday. It's really that simple.


     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?:
    In Response to Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back? : As I clearly mentioned in my post, I did not want to compare Varitek to Salty or other backups we had in the past, because I don't believe they're the answer either.  Saying V-Tek is worthwile because Salty stinks worse is not going to improve the Red Sox. Given his inability to hit after the All-Star break and his inability to throw anyone out, I honestly believe that anyone who defends Varitek probably is either a family member or friend (or friend of a friend - or Tek signed an autograph for someone - it's obvious that there's a personal connection - some connection).  I don't know Tek, nor have I ever met him.  I just know the guy needs to go.  Why should an organization that has a $160 million+ payroll and sells out every game for 8 years keep a guy that has hit .157 over the past three seasons after the All-Star break, .129 in September over the past FOUR seasons, and .174 in September over the past SEVEN seasons?  Why should an organization settle for such an incredibly mind-blowing display of pure inepitude?  Where is the accountability for being such a TERRIBLE hitter (especially in the clutch) and thrower?  Should the bar really be set that low for a "marquee" organization that a good hitting pitcher in the NL can blow away those stats? Tek only started in 34 non-Josh Beckett games this year anyway.  The Sox were 8-7 in Tek games started by our other current starting rotation (Lester, Wakefield, Lackey, and Bedard).I'm POSITIVE I don't want Tek back  --- and I don't want Salty back either.  Excluding our beloved captain, have you ever seen a player swing and miss more than Salty?  It's amazing. The organization has had many, many years to develop/trade for a good catcher.  Once again, Theo's incompetence shines through.
    Posted by mikezep61


    And how did the team do with Salty catching these same four pitchers?
    Little Mikey - always telling only half the story - the half that make his position look good.

    Everything is relative. Like team record w/each catcher in April.
    Like how the staff tanked in April with Salty. Then Tek became primary catcher and the pitching "coincidently" went on one of it's best runs.

    Nice job getting "B*tch is back" video removed. Did tears accompany the request?
     
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    Re: Are You Sure You Don't Want Varitek Back?

    Let it be known that it was I, not Katz, who said to sign Hernandez as a FA.

    I notice September somehow isn't part of the bring Varitek back narrative. Varitek is a joke, as is Wastefield.
     
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