Aren't we smarter than this?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    But again, the point of this thread wasn't to make Drew out to be the next coming of Ozzie Smith any more than it was to bash Derek Jeter.  It was to ask why as knowledgeable baseball fans do we insist on putting so much more emphasis on offense than on defense?


    Even now in this discussion I keep hearing about Drew's BA, OPS, and slugging percentage.  Those are offensive statistics (in more ways than one!) and that's what he keeps getting bashed for.  Why is it that nobody wants to focus on the fact that he's the best fielding SS on this team and his defense is keeping the team in games and giving them a chance to win?


     That's kind of my point though, S5.


    Most people (I hope) recognize that Drew does a good job defensively...it's not that this isn't important, or is less important than offense, it's that you still have to hit enough to justify a spot in the lineup, because both are important.


    I've been a big supporter and defender of Bradley, whose defensive contributions do justify keeping his (so far) weak bat in the lineup, IMO...but it's a lot more difficult to make that argument about a guy who's hitting .120.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from dannycater. Show dannycater's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    S5, no

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to slasher9's comment:

    i think people hate:

    his brother

    his paycheck

    his agent

    so they hate him too.

     

    other names i have posted under:  none



    I think most fans just hate his performance. Last year in the playoffs we could tolerate his problems at the plate because the team was otherwise sound offensively; this year he is part of the problem. We cannot afford Drew and JBJ and Ross and AJ and WMB and Gomes and Bogey and and and.....there are just too many guys in the same boat as Drew, and that is why the team is last in the league in runs scored and out of the playoff picture.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     



    wait....what??  besides god ortiz, who?

    FTR - the point of my post was to point out that some (many?) sox fans have other reasons why they dislike drew.  him not hitting a lick just adds to the vitriol.....

    other names i have posted under:  none

     



    Almost no team hits as well in the playoffs as during the regular season. However, the Sox were third in OPS among all ten playoff teams last year. We also scored 72 runs in the playoffs, 16 more than the closest competitor, the Cards. They could afford to keep a guy like Drew around for defense. Relatively speaking, we mashed the ball. This year its completely different. Drew is part of the problem.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    No, a lot of posters aren't smarter than that.  That's just the way it is.  Some of the posters simply don't understand small sample sizes.  They don't understand peripheral statistics that might indicate when a player might be better or worse than they look.  They have no understanding of prospect development.

    That's just like real life.

     



    Have you ever seen a player whose OPS+ was 13 who lasted in the majors? I can handle a player who is borderline in terms of his offensive skills if his defense is very good, but 13? We discussed this before in relation to JBJ, who is also very good defensively but borderline offensively. His OPS+ is 69. Small sample size or not, Drew is part of the problem for the Red Sox this year, which is a lack of offensive punch. 

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     




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    The question was 'aren't we smarter than this?'.  I don't mean this in a bad way, but some posters aren't.  Like someone else said, posters have still been ripping on JBJ, and he's been playing great.  Some of them ripped on Drew all thru last year, even as we were winning the WS.  They ripped on Crisp and he was great.

    There are some very opinionated posters in here that know little more than the stats on the back of a BB card, and some that know less than that.  And that's fine.  I enjoy FB without being able to diagram a play or figuring out who to draft.  The difference between me and some of the posters in here is that I recognize my limitations.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    There are some very opinionated posters in here that know little more than the stats on the back of a BB card, and some that know less than that.  



    There are some that will disregard the back of the BB card when it suits them, too, as with Drew's slump.

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pumpsie-green. Show pumpsie-green's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    In response to pumpsie-green's comment:

    In response to Joebreidey's comment:

    No, a lot of posters aren't smarter than that.  That's just the way it is.  Some of the posters simply don't understand small sample sizes.  They don't understand peripheral statistics that might indicate when a player might be better or worse than they look.  They have no understanding of prospect development.

    That's just like real life.

     



    Have you ever seen a player whose OPS+ was 13 who lasted in the majors? I can handle a player who is borderline in terms of his offensive skills if his defense is very good, but 13? We discussed this before in relation to JBJ, who is also very good defensively but borderline offensively. His OPS+ is 69. Small sample size or not, Drew is part of the problem for the Red Sox this year, which is a lack of offensive punch. 

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     




    [object HTMLDivElement]

    The question was 'aren't we smarter than this?'.  I don't mean this in a bad way, but some posters aren't.  Like someone else said, posters have still been ripping on JBJ, and he's been playing great.  Some of them ripped on Drew all thru last year, even as we were winning the WS.  They ripped on Crisp and he was great.

    There are some very opinionated posters in here that know little more than the stats on the back of a BB card, and some that know less than that.  And that's fine.  I enjoy FB without being able to diagram a play or figuring out who to draft.  The difference between me and some of the posters in here is that I recognize my limitations.



    I guess the question is: who is "we". I think Drews lack of value to THIS YEAR's team is easy to support with statistics. His WAR alone indicates that he is COSTING the team games, small sample size or not. I agree that some posters like to bash him without supporting their argument with statistics, but with a little effort, that could easily be done. This year's team and Drew are not a match. He fit better last year when we had the ancillary offense to support his lack of hitting in the playoffs.

    WE ARE ALL JUST POPPYSEEDS IN THE BAKERY OF LIFE

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BogieAt12oclock. Show BogieAt12oclock's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    If we were smarter, we wouldn't be wasting so much time posting about millionaire mercenaries. So, to answer your question-NO. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?


    Apparently you aren't"

    -Sox HAD Iggy, best defensive SS ever...but needed 'more offense'...so they brought in Drew.

    -Drew has an all time awful post season, and while fans go after Salty for having a less bad postseason, Drew gets credited for his 'defense', even though he was brought in to IMPROVE offense, which he didn't do.

    -Xander takes over. After about a month, management decides to bring Drew Back...this time for his DEFENSE!

    The funny thing is, when he was coming here, he was an offensive SS with a decent glove.

    Now people try and paint him like fking Ozzie Smith.

    I don't like hypocrisy...hate it, in fact. I never wanted Drew. Didn't want him back, now want him gone. It's a fairly simple timeline to follow.

    Add to that his brother...who I was never a fan of, and fans gave far too much credit for what was a meaningless grand slam. A LOT of fans thought he was playing for a new contract his final season in Boston! HAHAHAHAHAHA. 

    Drew being on this team, to me, is a smack in the face. It's management, yet again, proving how they're smarter than everyone else...in their own minds. It was an utter joke to pay him what they did, and displace a blue chip prospect for him.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    Add to that his brother...who I was never a fan of, and fans gave far too much credit for what was a meaningless grand slam. A LOT of fans thought he was playing for a new contract his final season in Boston! HAHAHAHAHAHA. 



    The grand slam was far from meaningless.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from southpaw777. Show southpaw777's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    I didnt agree with signing Drew. seemed a little desperate to me. I was Drews biggest supporter last year, but to me, he wasnt a good fit this year. If he does stay Im sure he will go on one of his offensive tears like he always does, but its all for not this year IMHO. I told folks to not pay attention to his poor defensive numbers after he signed before 2013. Hes much better than the stats say.

    Hes a solid MLB SS with good (streaky) offense and solid defense. Cant knock a guy who usually ends up with a .760-.800OPS and solid D. besides his broken ankle years, theres no reason to bash this guy one bit offensively.

    all that said, Id rather have Xander at SS. He was starting to look better and mashing the ball before the move. Hes a terrible 3b. Couldnt understand why people thought hed be better at a position that requires very good quick twitch reflexes when Xander himself has a not-so-fast first move. SS allows for a little slower of a 1st move. More room to move on a ball.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    I understood why they signed Drew.  It wouldn't have happened if Middlebrooks hadn't got injured.  Certainly with the benefit of hindsight it looks like the wrong move.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    Add to that his brother...who I was never a fan of, and fans gave far too much credit for what was a meaningless grand slam. A LOT of fans thought he was playing for a new contract his final season in Boston! HAHAHAHAHAHA. 



    The grand slam was far from meaningless.

     




    It was off Roberto Hernandez, who was AWFUL in that game, lasting 2+ while surrendering 7 earned.

    Ok, it was in the first inning...of what ended up being a 12-2 final. Does that all happen BECAUSE of Drew's GS? I mean, maybe. Do the Sox still score 6 in the 3rd without it? Again, maybe. 

    Fact is, you can remove 4 runs from that total, and 8-2 is still a beating. Hernandez was likely going to get shelled that game, period. Drew had 1 hr, and 6 RBI in that entire series, and you'd think he was the MVP by how fans love him for it. He hit a HR of the worst starting pitcher that series...not that impressive to me.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:

    It was off Roberto Hernandez, who was AWFUL in that game, lasting 2+ while surrendering 7 earned.

    Ok, it was in the first inning...of what ended up being a 12-2 final. Does that all happen BECAUSE of Drew's GS? I mean, maybe. Do the Sox still score 6 in the 3rd without it? Again, maybe. 

    Fact is, you can remove 4 runs from that total, and 8-2 is still a beating. Hernandez was likely going to get shelled that game, period. Drew had 1 hr, and 6 RBI in that entire series, and you'd think he was the MVP by how fans love him for it. He hit a HR of the worst starting pitcher that series...not that impressive to me.



    All conjecture, man.  At the time he hit it, it was huge.  That's the only way you can judge these things.  It's nopt fair to do the revisionist thing looking back.

    I always say, if Drew's granny was meaningless, then so was Damon's in 2004.  And we all know that's a little ridiculous.

    Drew, BTW, also drove in the first run we scored in the 3rd inning of that Game 6, triggering the 6-run rally that blew open the game. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to southpaw777's comment:

    I didnt agree with signing Drew. seemed a little desperate to me. I was Drews biggest supporter last year, but to me, he wasnt a good fit this year. If he does stay Im sure he will go on one of his offensive tears like he always does, but its all for not this year IMHO. I told folks to not pay attention to his poor defensive numbers after he signed before 2013. Hes much better than the stats say.

    Hes a solid MLB SS with good (streaky) offense and solid defense. Cant knock a guy who usually ends up with a .760-.800OPS and solid D. besides his broken ankle years, theres no reason to bash this guy one bit offensively.

    all that said, Id rather have Xander at SS. He was starting to look better and mashing the ball before the move. Hes a terrible 3b. Couldnt understand why people thought hed be better at a position that requires very good quick twitch reflexes when Xander himself has a not-so-fast first move. SS allows for a little slower of a 1st move. More room to move on a ball.




    This is more or less where I land. I like Drew, probably more than most here, but after he sat out spring training and the beginning of the season I'd have moved on for good. Rushing him back in June was a recipe for trouble. (As it happens, Morales is struggling in Minnesota as well...maybe the vaunted "Scott Boras training facility" is not all it's cracked up to be?) I understand why they did it, but I wouldn't have.

    The team needs to make up its mind on whether Bogaerts is the shortstop of the future or not. If he belongs at third base or elsewhere, fine, but proclaiming him the shortstop and then giving up on it 2 months into his rookie season made little sense to me.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I understood why they signed Drew.  It wouldn't have happened if Middlebrooks hadn't got injured.  Certainly with the benefit of hindsight it looks like the wrong move.



     If/when Drew starts to hit, he can be traded. Never know the dividends it can bring in return, long term, with the right deal. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from J-BAY. Show J-BAY's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:


    In response to southpaw777's comment:


    I didnt agree with signing Drew. seemed a little desperate to me. I was Drews biggest supporter last year, but to me, he wasnt a good fit this year. If he does stay Im sure he will go on one of his offensive tears like he always does, but its all for not this year IMHO. I told folks to not pay attention to his poor defensive numbers after he signed before 2013. Hes much better than the stats say.


    Hes a solid MLB SS with good (streaky) offense and solid defense. Cant knock a guy who usually ends up with a .760-.800OPS and solid D. besides his broken ankle years, theres no reason to bash this guy one bit offensively.


    all that said, Id rather have Xander at SS. He was starting to look better and mashing the ball before the move. Hes a terrible 3b. Couldnt understand why people thought hed be better at a position that requires very good quick twitch reflexes when Xander himself has a not-so-fast first move. SS allows for a little slower of a 1st move. More room to move on a ball.





    This is more or less where I land. I like Drew, probably more than most here, but after he sat out spring training and the beginning of the season I'd have moved on for good. Rushing him back in June was a recipe for trouble. (As it happens, Morales is struggling in Minnesota as well...maybe the vaunted "Scott Boras training facility" is not all it's cracked up to be?) I understand why they did it, but I wouldn't have.


    The team needs to make up its mind on whether Bogaerts is the shortstop of the future or not. If he belongs at third base or elsewhere, fine, but proclaiming him the shortstop and then giving up on it 2 months into his rookie season made little sense to me.




    Nick Cafardo reported yesterday, they would prefer Bogaerts remain at 3rd. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from S5. Show S5's posts

    Re: Aren't we smarter than this?

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:

    The team needs to make up its mind on whether Bogaerts is the shortstop of the future or not. If he belongs at third base or elsewhere, fine, but proclaiming him the shortstop and then giving up on it 2 months into his rookie season made little sense to me.



    The first part of this I agree with.  The second part not so much.

    The FO seems to be in limbo regarding a SS.  Drew isn't the long term plan - that's pretty obvious.  And since they've moved Bogaerts to 3B it seems that he isn't the long term plan either.  It seems that they don't even HAVE a long term plan for SS - unless it's SS of the Future #3, Deven Marrero - who, like Bogaerts last year at this time, hasn't played an inning of SS at the ML level.  IMHO it was ridiculous to trade Iggy assuming XB could play SS without having seen him there and equally as ridiculous to not sign Drew after Iggy was traded.  That left the defending WS champions with only one, untried, SS going into the 2014 season.  A FO boondoggle if I ever saw one.

    When Bogaerts was moved to 3B the Sox still had hopes of righting the ship and contending and it was pretty obvious that XB had defensive issues that would make that difficult so I have no problem with the timing of moving  him.  

    As things now stand it's going to take a lot of breaks and a Herculean effort for the Sox to get back into the race in a meaningful way and the FO realizes it.  That's why essentially everyone is on the block. With THAT in mind it doesn't matter if this team loses 80 games or 95 games so put XBO back there and see what he can do.  But at some point if it becomes apparent that it's not going to work the FO has to be willing to recognize it.

     

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