Athletes and religion

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    Re: Athletes and religion

    The Message Remix 2.0, The Bible in Comtemporary Language
    is a translation that is more readable than the 16th century versions of the Bible. It reads more like a novel in the English that is used today instead of the prose and poetry found in the St. James and Revised Standard editions.

    The New Testament does not dwell on the history of the Jewish people but comcentrates on the sermons and teaching of Jesus as he traveled the countryside. It tells how we should love each other and forgive. There are also some new recent well done movies that chronicle the life of Jesus.

    There isn't one author of the Bible. There are many and it was written over a period of hundreds of years. If parts of it aren't credible to you that is fine since you need not swallow the whole package or nothing. One does not need to read the Old Testament at all or find most of it to be relevant or credible. Why many do like about the Old Testament is the the coming of Jesus was predicted by the prophets of the time with great accuracy.

    Very few sermons that are given today mention the boring minutia of the Old Testament. Instead they focus of what Jesus taught and preached about how we should live our life and treat others and love your God. Review his teachings like you would review those of Ghandi or other great teachers. The history of India is not relevant in order to evaluate Ghandi.
     
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    [QUOTE]I on the other hand have lived a completely different life, filled with things that one only sees in the movies. If you had looked up the word decadent between 1978 - 2008, you would have seen my photo next to it. That being said, I have never killed anyone, inflicted purposeful pain on anyone (except an enemy) and have never turned my back on someone because they were different or their views were diffferent. I believe in charity and helping those who need it. I have even walked little old ladies across the street. I have walked into churches and bowed my head out of respect for those around me who do believe. I learned this from growing up with two wonderful parents, not because some book told me to. There's nothing wrong there.  Been there, done that. But here's the thing.  That doesn't work for everyone. It's like alcohol.  I probably drank more beer in my 20s than 99.9% of the population.  TG, I'm okay.  But others didn't have the same experience.  My ex-roommate is a recovering alcoholic.  One of my old co-workers is a Born Again.  He embraced being Bron Again because his lifestyle of alcohol, drugs and women was putting everything else in his life at risk. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that do fine without going to Mass.  But there are probably a lot more out there that need a certain amount of grounding in their lives.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    Agreed Joe.
     
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    [QUOTE]Incidently, I also have no tolerance for proselytisers at my door, either....interrupting my life, my time with my family, friends and self, to selfishly push their personal beliefs at me.  I'm not a big fan of having my personal space violated either, and could live without anyone ever knocking on my door. However, I do remember one young couple that knocked.  They seemed very nice and sincere, looking to help others.  I'm sure that knocking on strangers' doors wasn't all that fun for them, and they could've stayed home and played video games.  But just as I was giving them the cold shoulder, they handed me a piece of paper and asked me to think about it. After I thought about it, their appearance bothered me less, and I came to beleive that they might be right. FWIW, their belief was that the minimum wage law in NYS was too low.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    I was eating dinner with the girls last week when the door rang and it was the local councillor running for re-election.  I told him it was a bad time, he asked for some feedback and later that night I wrote him a long, detailed email with my views on the council's performance (largely good, btw).  I buy cleaning crap we don't need from the young people selling it door to door because they are trying to help themselves.  I don't get mad at telephone sales people because it's crappy job they have to do.  But I draw the line at people pushing their beliefs at me.  I find it offensive, and selfish.  If they have all that free time why don't they spend on something tangible instead of bothering innocents?

     
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    [QUOTE]The point is what makes the writing of the New Testament more truthful than that of the Old? Where do you draw the line in what is real and what is not. Free will.  That's for you to decide.  Everything you need to know about God is already inside of you.  Just for the fun of it, buy a small Bible.  Read the new Testament.  Specifically, read what Christ said. Clear your mind before you read it.  No pre-conceived notions.  Don't think about whether or not God exists.  And if you are on the fence, don't think about whether Jesus is God or not.  I believe He is, but I don't know for certain.  So if it makes you feel more confortable, just think of Him as a philosopher. After that, either like what He has to say, or you don't.  I don't think it's much more complicated than that.  I'm also not sure why people that don't believe in God don't refer to Jesus as a great philosopher, like they would anyone else.
    Posted by Joebreidey[/QUOTE]

    Joe - my conversation at that point had nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. It had to do with arguments being presented to me. As I said earlier, I absolutely believe in the historical Jesus of Nazareth. Whether we call him philosopher, teacher or rabbi is fine with me. I think he was very cool and had very important things to say. I think his teachings as to how one should conduct themselves are very righteous. The Father as he teaches could well be the Universe itself. The Kingdom he preaches could be a dimensional area which his beliefs took him to. I think he was a man ahead of his time. It is the trappings that followed the death of Jesus of Nazareth that threw it all away for me. As for this Free Will, I think it is just too easy to throw that out there. Maybe a free mind is better suited.

    FTR - The truth is that none of us no for sure what he actually said and taught. We base it all on texts which were written several generations after he died. I have never come across a story that could remain the same within a three day span as it is told from one person to the next. Why would it be possible for his story to have remained true to form and without serious embellishment over the course of a 50 year period. It is most likely that Peter, Paul and the rest of them went on with his teachings but they put their own spin on things. If they didn't, all four gospels would basically read exactly the same.


    As for my opinion, God as defined by the masses (nice old man sitting on a cloud does not exist). I do not believe in the Virgin Birth as there is something that creeps me out about that. Not to mention that it does take somewhat from the stories of Zeus.

    I am a firm believer that their are other life forms within the Universe that could very well of had an effect on how life on ths planet progressed. Now this may make me into a crackpot, but what can I say.

    Although I have yet to do so, I do wish to read the Gnostic Bible. Has anyone read this yet?
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : This works for you and I for one and so happy to read that. It is your life to live and live it the best way you can. I on the other hand have lived a completely different life, filled with things that one only sees in the movies. If you had looked up the word decadent between 1978 - 2008, you would have seen my photo next to it. That being said, I have never killed anyone, inflicted purposeful pain on anyone (except an enemy) and have never turned my back on someone because they were different or their views were diffferent. I believe in charity and helping those who need it. I have even walked little old ladies across the street. I have walked into churches and bowed my head out of respect for those around me who do believe. I learned this from growing up with two wonderful parents, not because some book told me to. Every story in both the old and new testament & Qu'ran, as far as I am concerned, is a complete falsehood or an embellishment on something else.

    Fact - The birthdate of the historical Jesus is not December 25th. He is either a March or August child. Christians stole the holiday as part of their weeding out the pagan rituals. And although I am sure all our esteemed members are aware of this, but just in case - Jesus of Nazareth did not look like a Rock Star with flowing locks and blue eyes. He was a short, dark skinned man just like all the rest from that place and time in the world. 




       Yup.  I know,  and have sent out Christmas cards in April.  The reality of the scene of the traditional  Christmas creche is probably inaccurate.  The wise men (magi) were looking for almost two years. So the shepherds weren't there at the same time as the wisemen... 

        Jesus was probably quite a strongly built man, of the coloration you mention or at least similar.  He was a carpenter of some reknown before He began His ministry.  Scripture says He grew in favor with God and man ... he would not have found favor with man if he were not a good craftsman.  The "power tools" of the day were muscle and sinew....

    Fact - Adam and Eve is a fairytale. How do I know this - fossils. Dinosaurs and such were on this planet long before man. Those who think the Flintstones is a documentary have allowed their faith to take over too much of their lives. 



         The comment that they are a fairy tale is not quite true.  I know many take the 6 days of creation as literal. I, on the other hand, don't think that is the case. After all, God didn't form things concerning the earth until several "days" into the creation epoc. If we are to measure the days by the earthly 24 hours, they weren't set up yet. In several places in the Old Testament the reference to time as God sees it relate to terms that were understood as immense or endless. 

        The non-creation story of hominid development includes a singular "Eve" as well.  The Leakey family - as they searched the Rift region of Africa -  so well known as those who discovered evidences of the early/earliest predecessors, made claim after claim of finding the "first" this or that.  The "Eve" of their discoveries was openly proclaimed the mother of all things human ... ALL things human.

       Interesting thought here is, what did "Eve" mate with to bring about the human family?  What ...

       The philosophical question of what comes first, the chicken or the egg, is never satisfied in evolution.  It really isn't a laughing matter.  When "mother nature" decides something needs to change, how does it happen?  Most things that don't work in an environment die if they can't live there. 

      Why haven't raccoons learned to stay out of the headlights of cars?

      Haven't they been facing cars long enough? Haven't they lost thousands and thousands of individuals to cars? When does mother nature say, "Hey, 'coons, time to adapt!"?




    Fact - The great flood and Noah. If this were actually real, then God would have been condoning incest. Now there were large floods, but not in the Biblical sense that we were raised with (I call this taking liberty with truth - much like Hollywood does) 
            
         


          Always a question of how Noah could get twos of everything ... and surely one can see there is room for the understanding of what "the world" meant.  For instance, our children are still being taught that Athens and Rome were the birthplace and epitome(s?) of civilization. We might include Egypt - or even Babilon and other places in the Mideast.  But ...  our western minded teaching has almost completely left out the realities of civilization in China, the Indian sub-continent and southeastern Asia.  Time and time again we are taught Athens is the birthplace of culture.   

        I'm a student of - well, quasi-student - of world civilizations.  As much as I love this country, we teach our children woefully limited "truths" about days gone by.   

        In the days of the oral and then finally the written histories of the Old Testament certainly had the insight the "world" was dealing with the area they lived in.

        Heck, even some American Natives taught that they were "The People" ....
    and even still the Yannomami of the deep forests of Venezuala call themselves "human" and all others are sub-human....





    . Not to mention that it would mean God had one h*ll of a sense of dry humor. 


       Dry sense of humor when dealing with a flood?   :o)



    Fact - During the time of Jesus of Nazareth, there were 4 other men claiming to also be the messiah. This is according to texts which I cannot prove or disprove, but the same texts which most of the new testament is taken. 




       Fact is there were almost countless claims of messianic office. Not just four ... and not just during the time Christ Jesus was alive. During the times that the Hebrews were under the thumb of foreign oppressors, messiahs popped up here and there in efforts - most of the time - to try to overthrow the oppressors.

      During the time of the Maccabees, messianic claims helped stir the revolt against the oppressors.  

       Of course, we still see people making the claim.

       Fact is .... none of the rest of them were the authentic one. If they were, they would still be in the game with Jesus of Nazareth.  But ...

     

    Fact - The Council of Nicea decided what to put into the New Testament, not God. They decided what worked best for them to keep, control and increase their powers over those who believed.


    The Council of Nicea did not decide what the Old Testament books were.

    However, the Council was formed to deal with EXACTLY the issues that so many think of as

    Here are some old testament goodies for you: I dedicate this to W.O. who likes to give us different passages from the Bible. Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death to Followers of Other Religions Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night) , and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) I think God was into Snuff movies. And there are a hundred others, believe me. The old testament reads like a Stephen King novel.

    Wish I had use this bold print before,

      Let me simply say that to pick and choose references out of context is as big an error as to take parts of my scuba diving lessons or life -saving/water safety  out of context.  
       For instance, in a life-saving move, I was taught to (dive well out of reach of the drowning victim) "climb up the body" of the victim. From ankles all the way up to the torso ... so one's hands would be all over the victim. When taken out of context ... that could easily be sexual harrassment/assault.      


    First time I read it, it scared the cr*p out me. I ask all who believe to hold tight to your faith. It belongs to you and no one has the right to take it away from you. But please do not preach about things which you have no clue about. I cannot believe the conversation regarding Gays, the Gay gene and the 7% of the population of man being gay where no other living creature shows this tendency. I did like the response though about LHer's. The one thing about those like me is we have science to back up so much of our beliefs. I know that not seeing is the whole point of faith. But I don't think love, peace, kindness and respect require a God. It just requires common sense and belief in yourself. Now I am going to leave this computer before I am struck down. Afterall, this is the Sabbath of the Jewish faith and they are the chosen ones. I don't wish to tempt faith.   Regards jessey  
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]


    Jess,

      We've always had a respectful, if not a bit whacky, relationship.  Take care ....
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    BTW, the reason the left hand is labelled "sinister" is not because left (sinister in Latin) is bad but because the left hand in many ancient places - and even some now - is that the left hand did the "dirty work" while the right hand did the clean stuff.

      Dirty work????  Like wiping one's backside after going to the bathroom.  That is why "The left should not know what the right is doing."

       Sanitation.  Health.  Left hand for doo-doo, right hand for food.

       Simple enough?

       I was born in a place where they were still using their hands in that fashion.  Very strict rules for sanitation and health!
     
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    When "mother nature" decides something needs to change, how does it happen? 
    ----------------
    The environment changes (say, colder), certain characteristics of an existing species become more important (thicker fur, more fat), existing and future individuals of that species with less of those now-important characteristics will be less viable and less attractive to mate with.

     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]BTW, the reason the left hand is labelled "sinister" is not because left (sinister in Latin) is bad but because the left hand in many ancient places - and even some now - is that the left hand did the "dirty work" while the right hand did the clean stuff.   Dirty work????  Like wiping one's backside after going to the bathroom.  That is why "The left should not know what the right is doing."    Sanitation.  Health.  Left hand for doo-doo, right hand for food.    Simple enough?    I was born in a place where they were still using their hands in that fashion.  Very strict rules for sanitation and health!
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]

    Sinister means the following:

    1. In heraldry, the side of an escutcheon or coat of arms that is to the left of the bearer (opposed to dexter)
    2. In the Middle Ages it was believed that when a person was writing with their left hand they were possessed by the Devil. (This was uncommon, particularly as there were fewer literate people). Left-handed people were therefore considered to be evil. Hence, the most common present-day meanings:
      1. Threatening or portending evil, harm, or trouble; ominous: a sinister remark
      2. Bad, evil, base, or wicked; fell: his sinister purposes
      3. Unfortunate; disastrous; unfavorable: a sinister accident
    3. Comes from the Latin Sinistra meaning lefthand

     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Jess,   We've always had a respectful, if not a bit whacky, relationship.  Take care ....
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]

    I will not copy/paste each response, but I will say that what you highlighted was basically saying the same thing. I said the council of Nicea was regarding the New Testament only (Didn't I?). I bring up the four only as a point of reference. In fact, everything I bring up is just a point of reference in that there are so many questions that have yet to be answered. And those which have been lead to most of my beliefs. But I leave my mind open if something changes. The good thing about breathing is I am still alive to look at something I have seen a thousand times before but then see something new in it on the thousand and first time I look at it.

    Which all leads me to what I have said at least a dozen times in this thread. I have great respect for those who hold their faith true and close. It is what you believe and it should be respected by all. My issues have more to do with those who want to thump me on the head with the Bible. As it is those same people who tend to refuse at actual historic discoveries.
     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]When "mother nature" decides something needs to change, how does it happen?  ---------------- The environment changes (say, colder), certain characteristics of an existing species become more important (thicker fur, more fat), existing and future individuals of that species with less of those now-important characteristics will be less viable and less attractive to mate with.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]


    I understand the concept as taught, Chili.  I was going to be a marine biologist before the call to ministry.  I'm not unaware of the proposed process. 

    But my question is how does something that takes a signification period of time happen without the specie in specific die out first?

    It seems a contradiction in realities to me ... Like when whales "decided" go "back" into the seas. I undersand there was a supposed need that drove them to it. But how did they not die out first before the mutations/changes took place?

    How did they develop the deep diving traights of the Sperm and Blue?  Why did some go baleen and some go toothed?       

     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    FTR - The truth is that none of us no for sure what he actually said and taught. We base it all on texts which were written several generations after he died. I have never come across a story that could remain the same within a three day span as it is told from one person to the next. Why would it be possible for his story to have remained true to form and without serious embellishment over the course of a 50 year period. It is most likely that Peter, Paul and the rest of them went on with his teachings but they put their own spin on things. If they didn't, all four gospels would basically read exactly the same.

    Heard this before from the doubters or the devil's advocates. Some say that persons from that part of the world had fantastic memories and passed the details on with accuracy from generation to generation.. Which details are you referring to that you say were distorted. Sure there are some differences in the narratives but how relevant are they in the whole picture? Many others are surprised at the similarities. If you want to nitpick and disprove the credibility of those scriptures I guess that is up to you if you wish. Is it imperative that all four Gospels read exactly the same? Why is that? Please list the inconsistencies that ruin the whole story for you?
     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : I will not copy/paste each response, but I will say that what you highlighted was basically saying the same thing. I said the council of Nicea was regarding the New Testament only (Didn't I?).  
      If you did, my bad.  

      

    I bring up the four only as a point of reference. In fact, everything I bring up is just a point of reference in that there are so many questions that have yet to be answered. And those which have been lead to most of my beliefs. But I leave my mind open if something changes. The good thing about breathing is I am still alive to look at something I have seen a thousand times before but then see something new in it on the thousand and first time I look at it. Which all leads me to what I have said at least a dozen times in this thread. I have great respect for those who hold their faith true and close. It is what you believe and it should be respected by all. My issues have more to do with those who want to thump me on the head with the Bible. As it is those same people who tend to refuse at actual historic discoveries.
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    I actually love history.  And science.

    I am addicted to the History Channel, Discovery, Nat Geo, and like Naked Science and Nova.

    I just happen to believe there is a Great Scientist ....   :o)

          And now I HAVE to stop ... I haven't been to sleep yet and I worked all night. Poor little me.
     
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    The deep-thinking , pseudo-intellectual , atheists mock the scriptures , but like to quote from the Bill Mahers , George Carlins and various other pop culture figures. This smug , " I know better " attitude is very prominent in our universities. "There is no God. God is dead. It is a myth. Anything goes. If it feels good , do it." The end result is the crime , decadence , drug abuse , out-of-wedlock births and general sense of apathy and hopelessness that is slowly destroying our society.  We need to get back to the belief in a Supreme Being. One far wiser than any college professor or philosopher could ever be.  We need to realize that we are here for a reason. Our intelligence is a gift. Don't abuse it by doubting things that cannot be proven to you.  Keep the faith.
     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : I understand the concept as taught, Chili.  I was going to be a marine biologist before the call to ministry.  I'm not unaware of the proposed process.  But my question is how does something that takes a signification period of time happen without the specie in specific die out first? It seems a contradiction in realities to me ... Like when whales "decided" go "back" into the seas. I undersand there was a supposed need that drove them to it. But how did they not die out first before the mutations/changes took place? How did they develop the deep diving traights of the Sperm and Blue?  Why did some go baleen and some go toothed?       
    Posted by SinceYaz[/QUOTE]

    Sorry Yaz....I did think it was odd that you would post such a simple question and should have assumed it wasn't the "real" question. 

    I don't have much knowledge on the subject.  On the simplest level, maybe many species do die out before the mutation occurs?
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    Joe - my conversation at that point had nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. It had to do with arguments being presented to me. As I said earlier, I absolutely believe in the historical Jesus of Nazareth. Whether we call him philosopher, teacher or rabbi is fine with me. I think he was very cool and had very important things to say. I think his teachings as to how one should conduct themselves are very righteous. The Father as he teaches could well be the Universe itself. The Kingdom he preaches could be a dimensional area which his beliefs took him to. I think he was a man ahead of his time. It is the trappings that followed the death of Jesus of Nazareth that threw it all away for me. As for this Free Will, I think it is just too easy to throw that out there. Maybe a free mind is better suited.

    Yeah, I don't disagree.  While I'm a Christian, I really tend to think that Christ doesn't overly care if people 2,000 years later care if he is the Son of God or not.

    IRT the trappings, they were created by humans, and subject to our weaknesses.  And bear in mind, for every Spanish Inquisition, there are 1,000 people working in Africa on behalf of the poor.  While I disagree with their stance re gays, I think the Catholic hospital system caters to more AIDS patients than do the public hospitals.

    And for all the arguments about separation of church and state, the religious schools in NY probably save NY about $1B a year teaching our kids.

    And if the religious schools (including Jewish and all else) were to receive even half the funding that the public schools do, every single public school in NYC would be empty tomorrow morning.
     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]The deep-thinking , pseudo-intellectual , atheists mock the scriptures , but like to quote from the Bill Mahers , George Carlins and various other pop culture figures. This smug , " I know better " attitude is very prominent in our universities. "There is no God. God is dead. It is a myth. Anything goes. If it feels good , do it." The end result is the crime , decadence , drug abuse , out-of-wedlock births and general sense of apathy and hopelessness that is slowly destroying our society.  We need to get back to the belief in a Supreme Being. One far wiser than any college professor or philosopher could ever be.  We need to realize that we are here for a reason. Our intelligence is a gift. Don't abuse it by doubting things that cannot be proven to you.  Keep the faith.
    Posted by dgalehouse[/QUOTE]

    I don't need gods to tell me what's right and wrong.  Why can't people just take personal responsibility for their actions?  Perhaps the answer is some can, and some can't....or won't.
     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Sorry Yaz....I did think it was odd that you would post such a simple question and should have assumed it wasn't the "real" question.  I don't have much knowledge on the subject.  On the simplest level, maybe many species do die out before the mutation occurs?
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]

    LOL  sorry to have nailed you with so many typos in that last post.  I must be more tired than thought ...

    I is tired, boss ... I be going to sleep now.


    GO SOX!  :o)
     
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    So I didn't read a single post on this thread.  Yet the fact that it has over 400 comments compelled me to just write one thought.

    I could care less whether athletes are religious or not, or whether they talk about it or not.  they are athletes not philosophers.  Seriously.  Who cares?
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : I don't need gods to tell me what's right and wrong.  Why can't people just take personal responsibility for their actions?  Perhaps the answer is some can, and some can't....or won't.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]

    Suppose you lived in Somalia where there is no government and no rules and it is every person for himself, who would you be accountable to? If you are not accountable to anyone there and don't believe in any God then what is your morality based on? Wouldn't it be logical and completely reasonable for you to steal, and murder in order to make your life as secure, confortable, and happy as possible. It would be idiotic to do anything else. You could pirate those ships off the coast with a completely clear conscience.
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Joe - my conversation at that point had nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. It had to do with arguments being presented to me. As I said earlier, I absolutely believe in the historical Jesus of Nazareth. Whether we call him philosopher, teacher or rabbi is fine with me. I think he was very cool and had very important things to say. I think his teachings as to how one should conduct themselves are very righteous. The Father as he teaches could well be the Universe itself. The Kingdom he preaches could be a dimensional area which his beliefs took him to. I think he was a man ahead of his time. It is the trappings that followed the death of Jesus of Nazareth that threw it all away for me. As for this Free Will, I think it is just too easy to throw that out there. Maybe a free mind is better suited. FTR - The truth is that none of us no for sure what he actually said and taught. We base it all on texts which were written several generations after he died. I have never come across a story that could remain the same within a three day span as it is told from one person to the next. Why would it be possible for his story to have remained true to form and without serious embellishment over the course of a 50 year period. It is most likely that Peter, Paul and the rest of them went on with his teachings but they put their own spin on things. If they didn't, all four gospels would basically read exactly the same. As for my opinion, God as defined by the masses (nice old man sitting on a cloud does not exist). I do not believe in the Virgin Birth as there is something that creeps me out about that. Not to mention that it does take somewhat from the stories of Zeus. I am a firm believer that their are other life forms within the Universe that could very well of had an effect on how life on ths planet progressed. Now this may make me into a crackpot, but what can I say. Although I have yet to do so, I do wish to read the Gnostic Bible. Has anyone read this yet?
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]




    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Joe - my conversation at that point had nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth. It had to do with arguments being presented to me. As I said earlier, I absolutely believe in the historical Jesus of Nazareth. Whether we call him philosopher, teacher or rabbi is fine with me. I think he was very cool and had very important things to say. I think his teachings as to how one should conduct themselves are very righteous. 



    Jesus said He was the son of God.  Either He is or He was a madman. 

    Sorry, just had to put my two cents in.Laughing
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Chilliwings. Show Chilliwings's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Suppose you lived in Somalia where there is no government and no rules and it is every person for himself, who would you be accountable to? If you are not accountable to anyone there and don't believe in any God then what is your morality based on? Wouldn't it be logical and completely reasonable for you to steal, and murder in order to make your life as secure, confortable, and happy as possible. It would be idiotic to do anything else. You could pirate those ships off the coast with a completely clear conscience.
    Posted by lowelll[/QUOTE]

    It's outrageous to say that without believing in gods one can't have morality, you can't really believe that, can you?  In your example, I would accountable to my own conscious as I am now.  Luckily for me, I believe my parents instilled in my siblings and myself a strong value system that I have passed on to my children (well, passed on to one, passing on to another).

    Why would I need a government, church, police officer, you or anyone else to tell me not to steal?  Or lie?  Or cheat?  Or not to call people unlike me "sinners" or "perverts"?

    Of course, an infant has no value system so it must be taught....but some infants have no parents, others parents that themselves were not given a good value system so are ill-equiped to provide one.  Therefore a substitute is required, but what's so special about religion?  It's just another thing that some people believe in, right?  And which one?  Whose god?  I'm sure we all know people with (and without) religion that commit terrible crimes....and we all know about the many terrible abuses by certain clergy (and by others, of course, I'm not fingerpointing).  How good are their morals?  What did religion do for them?

    You and I clearly agree that a good moral values system is important.  And I'd bet that we would have broad agreement on which such values are important.  The difference is, I think and correct me if I've got your position wrong, you seem think it can only come from religion while I think it's the values not the source that matters.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : I appreciate the thought you put into your responses! I think your own experience proves that pregnancy, while a natural state, is not without its danger.  Really, even illness and death are natural states - they are just not preferred states, and they are states that health care should aim to prevent.  If you think about it, any medication that reduces blood pressure, or glucose levels or cholestorol is not really addressing a current condition, but the prevention of a potentially dangerous condition in the future.  Is that so different from contraception?  


    Women have been giving birth for thousands and thousands of years.  Why now do you believe they have to put un-natural chemicals in their bodies to stop it?

    Women can die from taking the pill.  The pill contains chemical hormones, that both suppress ovulation and prevent the uterus from accepting  a child who has been conceived. These hormones can cause blood clots.

    I was put on natural hormones like the chemical ones found in the pill after female surgery. I developed a blot clot in my leg, ended up in the emergency room, and could have died.

    My doctor said he had a patient with the a blood clot in her leg and she was dead for 20 minutes.



    Eventually, most women will want to take that risk because the reward is so great, but should they be asked to take that risk continuously throughout their lives when there is a medical means to prevent it?  


    As I've already stated women have been doing this from the beginning of time so I think you are overstating your cause a bit.



    The risks increase with age, for the both the mother and the child - should age factor into the decision?  Is it less of a sin for a woman in her forties to use contraception than a woman in her twenties?  

    My grandmother gave birth to my dad when she was 42 then gave birth to my aunt a year or so latter. Women in europe don't think childbirth in their latter years is any big deal, we make a fuss about it here but it's not such a big deal elsewhere.

    If you want to eliminate risk in your life don't drive a car, take a plane or train, don't have surgery or even your teeth extracted.  I read a story about a teenager who died having her wisdom teeth removed.  When I mentioned it to my dental hygienist she said it happens.  She died from the anesthesia.


     But again, in my mind, the debate is not about contraception itself, but how much power you want to give to a church that is acting as a business.  

    I find it interesting that you brought this point up.  I believe the feds have overstepped their authority by ignoring the constitution.  Never before in the history of our nation have the feds infringed on religious rights.



    My analogy to veiling women is fair, because it is expressly described in the Quran, and many Muslim Clerics have decreed that it is demanded in the practice of their faith.  

    I disagree.  No one is telling these women they can't purchase birth control and if they do they can't work in catholic institutions. The church is saying they won't pay for it.

    Your position on contraception stems from Humanae Vitae, a Papal decree.  If there were a Papal decree requiring all women to wear crucifixes, wouldn't you feel that it should apply to the students of Catholic schools, and the employees of Catholic hospitals?  

    Even though the church views birth control as an evil they are not saying you must not use birth control of you want to work in a catholic institution.

    In your analogy the church is making women do something.  In reality the church isn't making their employees do anything catholic.  They are saying because there is freedom of religion in this country they should not be forced to pay for something they consider evil.


    As we all know health insurance doesn't cover everything.  Elective surgery is not cover so elective sterilization shouldn't be cover but it is part of this bill.

     Maybe that's a bit of a 'slippery slope' argument, but the direct analogy is that Christian Scientists would not be required to provide any health care to their employees, and Scientologists would not be required to provide mental health care.
    As for the Christian College, I think I'd need more information before forming an opinion.  If the students were promised a place of worship, then the college should remove the crucifix - if there was no such expectation established, then the students should either deal with it or find another place to worship.
    Posted by slomag[/QUOTE]
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from teilhardian. Show teilhardian's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : This works for you and I for one and so happy to read that. It is your life to live and live it the best way you can. I on the other hand have lived a completely different life, filled with things that one only sees in the movies. If you had looked up the word decadent between 1978 - 2008, you would have seen my photo next to it. That being said, I have never killed anyone, inflicted purposeful pain on anyone (except an enemy) and have never turned my back on someone because they were different or their views were diffferent. I believe in charity and helping those who need it. I have even walked little old ladies across the street. I have walked into churches and bowed my head out of respect for those around me who do believe. I learned this from growing up with two wonderful parents, not because some book told me to. Every story in both the old and new testament & Qu'ran, as far as I am concerned, is a complete falsehood or an embellishment on something else. Fact - The birthdate of the historical Jesus is not December 25th. He is either a March or August child. Christians stole the holiday as part of their weeding out the pagan rituals. And although I am sure all our esteemed members are aware of this, but just in case - Jesus of Nazareth did not look like a Rock Star with flowing locks and blue eyes. He was a short, dark skinned man just like all the rest from that place and time in the world. Fact - Adam and Eve is a fairytale. How do I know this - fossils. Dinosaurs and such were on this planet long before man. Those who think the Flintstones is a documentary have allowed their faith to take over too much of their lives. Fact - The great flood and Noah. If this were actually real, then God would have been condoning incest. Now there were large floods, but not in the Biblical sense that we were raised with (I call this taking liberty with truth - much like Hollywood does) Fact - Moses did not live to a ripe old age of 120 + years, 40 of which were wandering the desert and then dieing just before he enters Israel. Historical and new archeology is slowly uncovering the evidence to prove this falacy. Not to mention that it would mean God had one h*ll of a sense of dry humor. Fact - During the time of Jesus of Nazareth, there were 4 other men claiming to also be the messiah. This is according to texts which I cannot prove or disprove, but the same texts which most of the new testament is taken. Fact - The Council of Nicea decided what to put into the New Testament, not God. They decided what worked best for them to keep, control and increase their powers over those who believed. Here are some old testament goodies for you: I dedicate this to W.O. who likes to give us different passages from the Bible. Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT) Kill Fortunetellers A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB) Death for Cursing Parents 1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB) 2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT) Death to Followers of Other Religions Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB) Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night) , and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB) Kill People for Working on the Sabbath The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT) I think God was into Snuff movies. And there are a hundred others, believe me. The old testament reads like a Stephen King novel. First time I read it, it scared the cr*p out of me. I ask all who believe to hold tight to your faith. It belongs to you and no one has the right to take it away from you. But please do not preach about things which you have no clue about. I cannot believe the conversation regarding Gays, the Gay gene and the 7% of the population of man being gay where no other living creature shows this tendency. I did like the response though about LHer's. The one thing about those like me is we have science to back up so much of our beliefs. I know that not seeing is the whole point of faith. But I don't think love, peace, kindness and respect require a God. It just requires common sense and belief in yourself. Now I am going to leave this computer before I am struck down. Afterall, this is the Sabbath of the Jewish faith and they are the chosen ones. I don't wish to tempt faith.   Regards jessey  
    Posted by jesseyeric[/QUOTE]

    Nice job, jessey....A truly disturbing example of the reality of accepted barbaric practice being embraced by Yahweh is the passage from Deuteronomy where he declares that the Israelites need to follow holy war practices with their most idolatrous enemies, but are allowed to spare the women and children with less egregious enemies (Deuteronomy 20:10-18):  "When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby. 16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God."

    A less disturbing instance in which the realities of history impact the Old Testament concerns Samuel, Books 1 and 2.  Biblical scholars have long demonstrated that there are two separate strands.  One strand is pro-monarchical and was written in the court of Solomon.  It presents the development of Israelite kingship as a good thing and part of God's plan (the "son of David" etc.).  Another harkens back to the tribal league and condems it, such as when Samuel refuses the request of the people's demand for a king and prays to Yahweh: "But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. "And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you." (1 Samuel 8:7-8)

    There are also examples in the New Testament, such as one of the synoptic sources which has Jesus giving us his "Render unto Caesar" dictum, designed by the writer who put these words into the mouth of the real historical Jesus to show that the growing Christian community was NOT a threat to the Roman Empire. The Bible is a document that was, I believe, divinely inspired, as many other religious texts throughout the ages have been.  But is is also a historical document, written by real human beings and, as such, it is impacted by the cultural assumptions, attitudes, beliefs and even strategic needs of its time.  I understand that many people were brought up with the fundamentalist notion that everything in both the Old and New Testament is "the Word of God".  The problem with that view is that "the Word of God" sometimes embraces diametrically opposed positions or, worse, gives legitimacy to some of the most barbaric practices of the day (we are talking Old Testament, here, of course).  For those on this board who are of a fundamentalist persuasion, I realize that posts such as this are not going to sway you.  But my only point is that reason and faith can work together, and do not need to be mutually exclusive....


     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from lowelll. Show lowelll's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : It's outrageous to say that without believing in gods one can't have morality, you can't really believe that, can you?  In your example, I would accountable to my own conscious as I am now.  Luckily for me, I believe my parents instilled in my siblings and myself a strong value system that I have passed on to my children (well, one passed on, one passing on). Why would I need a government, church, police officer, you or anyone else to tell me not to steal?  Or lie?  Or cheat?  Or not to call people unlike me "sinners" or "perverts"? Of course, an infant has no value system so it must be taught....some infants have no parents, others parents that themselves were not given a good value system so are ill-equiped to pass one on.  Therefore a substitute is required, but what's so special about religion?  It's just another thing that some people believe in, right?  I'm sure we all know people with (and without) religion that commit terrible crimes....and we all know about the many terrible abuses by certain clergy (and by others, of course, I'm not fingerpointing).  How good are their morals?  What did religion do for them? You and I clearly agree that a good moral values system is important.  And I'd bet that we would have broad agreement on which such values are important.  The difference is, I think and correct me if I've got your position wrong, you seem think it can only come from religion while I think it's the values not the source that matters.
    Posted by Chilliwings[/QUOTE]

    Are you telling me that the moral code of atheists is the same as that of religious people. Over the generations a good moral code has been passed down to you by your ancestors who were themselves religious, they did not become moral through randomness. You tell me what is the moral code of secularists / atheists and tell me what is the moral code of those who fill our prisons. Why do religious people do more good, are more charitable, did not follow Hitler and the Nazis, beat and rape their slaves, follow Sadam Hussein, torture and kill demonsrators, and hold blacks as slaves. Why are more religious people outside of prisons instead of inside them? Why are more atheists inside of prisons. Why are the most despicable of persons in history atheists?

    If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist.

    But we know that objective moral values do exist.

    Therefore, God does exist.

    The moral atheist is simply hanging in midair on this issue, without any solid footing. Christians, on the other hand, have a rock solid foundation on which to build their beliefs and to live their lives. Our universe is morally good, and it's good because a transcendant and good God created it that way.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Are you telling me that the moral code of atheists is the same as that of religious people. Over the generations a good moral code has been passed down to you by your ancestors who were themselves religious, they did not become moral through randomness. You tell me what is the moral code of secularists / atheists and tell me what is the moral code of those who fill our prisons. Why do religious people do more good, are more charitable, did not follow Hitler and the Nazis, beat and rape their slaves, follow Sadam Hussein, torture and kill demonsrators, and hold blacks as slaves. Why are more religious people outside of prisons instead of inside them? Why are more atheists inside of prisons. Why are the most despicable of persons in history atheists? If God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. But we know that objective moral values do exist. Therefore, God does exist. The moral atheist is simply hanging in midair on this issue, without any solid footing. Christians, on the other hand, have a rock solid foundation on which to build their beliefs and to live their lives. Our universe is morally good, and it's good because a transcendant and good God created it that way.
    Posted by lowelll[/QUOTE]

    Hey Skippy - would happen to have proof to back all this up? If not, please get a shovel and remove your own manure. Yaz and 67 must be cringing when reading your points of view on this subject.
     
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