Athletes and religion

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    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Actually, I do not ascribe to any such scientific assumption.  I readily admit I really do not know what is nature and what is nurture in the formation of sexual preference.  But, I also do not care.  Because I do not see it as a behavioral disorder or abnormailty of any kind.  I think it is abnormal, read: perverted, to care so much about who someone is sleeping with, as long as the parties are consenting and no one is being harmed.   I suspect this abnormal level of care is based in fear.  Hence, phobia.
    Posted by SpacemanEephus


    I am not interested in what people do in their bedrooms.  I am interested in how their behavior affects society.

    As a floral designer I have to be an LLC, limited liability company.  Why?  Because there have been cases were same sex couples have sued businesses in the wedding industry who will not, due to religious reasons, provide services to them.

    I and others I know in the wedding industry have to protect ourselves because if we are sued by a gay couple we could lose our houses, cars, etc.

    There are same sex bridal shows and same sex wedding vendors.  There is simply no reason for these couples to sue another over their religious beliefs. Some like to make examples of those who stand by their beliefs.

    So for you to say those with ssad do not affect our society is wrong.

    The don't ask don't tell rule has been overturned.  Now the gay community in the armed forces want the rights of transvestites and other subsets of the homosexual community honored. They have started their own special interest group which isn't allowed in the armed forces. This goes against the rules but it seems no one wants to speak up, I guess it's because they don't want to be called homophobes.

    There is a polygamist who is suing for his right to be legally married to more than one woman.  The precedent set by the gay community, marriage isn't between on man and one woman, has open pandora's box.

    Once the gene is out of the bottle there is no putting it back

    .http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/family/11090-same-sex-custody-battle-in-florida-could-change-law

    We are heading down a slippery slope which affects us all.
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : I am not interested in what people do in their bedrooms.  I am interested in how their behavior affects society. As a floral designer I have to be an LLC, limited liability company.  Why?  Because there have been cases were same sex couples have sued businesses in the wedding industry who will not, due to religious reasons, provide services to them. I and others I know in the wedding industry have to protect ourselves because if we are sued by a gay couple we could lose our houses, cars, etc. There are same sex bridal shows and same sex wedding vendors.  There is simply no reason for these couples to sue another over their religious beliefs. Some like to make examples of those who stand by their beliefs. So for you to say those with ssad do not affect our society is wrong. The don't ask don't tell rule has been overturned.  Now the gay community in the armed forces want the rights of transvestites and other subsets of the homosexual community honored. They have started their own special interest group which isn't allowed in the armed forces. This goes against the rules but it seems no one wants to speak up, I guess it's because they don't want to be called homophobes. There is a polygamist who is suing for his right to be legally married to more than one woman.  The precedent set by the gay community, marriage isn't between on man and one woman, has open pandora's box. Once the gene is out of the bottle there is no putting it back . http://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/family/11090-same-sex-custody-battle-in-florida-could-change-law We are heading down a slippery slope that affects us all.
    Posted by 67redsox


    Well, there you have it.  
     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Well, there you have it.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus


    Pretty much.
     
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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Pretty much.
    Posted by 67redsox


    nice chatting.  Gonna go hang out with my gay friends now.  
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Everytime I am out, they pull me back in. The Bible - Homosexuality is supposedly referenced to in the New Testament in several places. Paul's Letter to the Romans 1: 21-28; Paul's Letter to the Corinthians 6:9 - 10 and Jude 7 (Sodom and Gomorrah). Considering when these texts were written and the language used and the translation thereafter, you cannot walk away saying with 100 % certainty that they are speaking of homosexuals in anyway shape or form. And my question to all our esteemed Bible followers, I ask; please reference one place, or one letter or one writing where Jesus himself is quoted as saying homosexuality is against the laws of his father and heaven ? Do not give me some loosely defined statement that can be open to misinterpretation. I want you to point out to me where Jesus gave this specific directive . Afterall, Christianity is founded from this man's teachings, crucifiction and believed resurection. Jesus said:  “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’  This is the greatest and first commandment.  And the second is like it:  ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets .” There is no war on Catholicism; that is for sure. There is no one more holy than my mother. She is every bit the Roman Catholic Italian stereo-type that you could find. She will celebrate 93 this coming Saturday and let me be perfectly clear on this, she goes nowhere without her rosary beads, a picture of Jesus (Sacred Heart), a small palm folded in the form or a cross and a medallian of Mother Mary. She does not feel betrayed by her only son who has walked away from the religion that she raised him in. Her words, "I taught my son to think for himself". There is no war - there is no one tough enough to take on this old Sicilian woman. And watch out if she has her older and younger sister by her side - then you are in really big trouble. And without getting into any long story, she will tell you that one should hold God true to their heart and do what you can to maintain a life which is rewarding to not only yourself, but the world around you. And d*mn to hell what any Priest, Rabbi, Iman and book would tell you for most of them only read the words and have no idea what those words actually mean. Remember, some of these words we quote as scripture were written more than 1900 years ago, back in a time when the language spoken and translated were easily mistaken in meaning. You cannot believe for one minute that words used to describe a time and place which seem barbaric to us now, can possibly mean the same thing today, especially through all the different translations.
    Posted by jesseyeric


    Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?"

    Answer:
    The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin (Romans 1:24-27) and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger/rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality.

    However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation (1 Corinthians 6:11; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Philippians 4:13).


    http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/bible-passages-that-oppose-homosexuality-including-the-words-of-jesus-and-god-himself/

    http://thebible.net/modules.php?name=Read&itemid=81&cat=9


    I can only tell you what my church teaches and what I believe.  I would never in a million years make a negative comment on what your mother said to you.  Your love for her is admirable.

    Since you're not a practicing catholic I don't think you can comment on if there is or is not a war on catholicism. Until you walk a mile in my shoes....

    Please read the below link. I have met fr. groeschel a couple of times. His love for those who suffer is profound.


    http://courage2bchaste.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/introduction-for-the-homosexual-person-by-fr-benedict-groeschel/

    Jessey, this is my last post to you on this subject.  I think anymore dialogue between us will only cause irreparable damage while accomplishing nothing good.

     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : nice chatting.  Gonna go hang out with my gay friends now.  
    Posted by SpacemanEephus


    Having gay friends is a good thing, condoning their behavior is not.
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion :  . A good Christian must be a good patriot.  Love of country and respect for authority, religious as well as civil is important.  That doesn't mean Christians have to follow unjust laws.  It does mean they need to try to change those laws in an appropriate manner.
    Posted by 67redsox


    You can only follow one God. You seem to feel that way on abortion ( common abortion, via the pill, IUD,) as murder. After reading your rationale of when life begins I am inclined to agree with you on the contraception issue. I never got into the details of how the pill and IUD work. On the other hand, I really don't see how using a condom is much different from using the rhythm method.
     
    In re-reading the thread I was surprised at your above comments that are highlighted. I've also re-read comments by Chilliwings and JesseyEric about morality. It made me ponder what teachings of Jesus would be different from the generic "garden variety" standards of "morality" that they claim to be attributable to being "accountable" and a good citizen or patriot. Our law system writes the standards of what being a law-abiding citizen should be and our nationality / patriotism dictates what a good patriot should be. Common sense, common decency, the Golden Rule , and peer group pressure add to the "garden variety" definition of morality that many civilized people adhere to. So through generations we all learn from ancestors what it means to be charitable, a good citizen, a patriot, good mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. We learn what to do to stay out of jail and how not be be the target of town gossip.

    So the question is what benefit did I or 67Redsox and others in this thread gain by attending religious education classes in Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish institutions, or by going to church and listening to sermons or homilies over our lifetimes? What makes Christians or religious Jews different than those who obtain their morality in other ways outside of the church?

     I will make an attempt to answer these questions by asking you several questions.

    If you can only have one boss or God to rely on to make decisions in your life and that advice may conflict from several different bosses then which do you choose?

    Jesus told you "Thou shalt not kill" ( see 67Redsox thoughts on abortion above). Peer group pressure, laziness to go to the drugstore to buy condoms,  and the Pro-Choice advocates may tell you that what a woman decides to do with her own body is supreme but what would Jesus say? Didn't he say "Thou shalt not kill"? There is no excuse for abortion.

    You are right out of college in 1965 and the country is involved in the Viet Nam War and you are drafted. Your buddies from high school have enlisted and the townspeople ( peer group pressure) are proud of them. As a true patriot you must follow them or be scorned upon and be disowned by the community. Yet your church and Jesus told you that Jesus said "Love your enemies" and "Thou shalt not kill". Do you become a consciencious objector, move to Canada, or foresake your religion in order to obey the God of patriotism? The decision involves how you must answer to Jesus upon reaching Heaven. You might be standing in a line that includes Iraqi soldiers who bulldozed live enemy troops into a ditch while they were sleeping, Nazis who were following orders and rounded up Jews to strip and walk into the shower which was a gas chamber. Will Jesus forgive you, then he also has to be consistent and forgive the Iraqi and the Nazi. Who is your God here, your patriotism or you God Jesus Christ?

    You are called to jury duty and are told that a guilty verdict might mean that the defendant will be put to death. As a citizen, you feel as if it is your civic duty ( peer pressure) and many good people in town with " garden variey" morality tell you "send the no-good S-OB to the electric chair. They believe in the Old Testament code of an eye for an eye, but you believe in the New Testament teachings of the man who called himself the Son of God named Jesus. Jesus said "thou shalt not kill". Who is your God here, who do you follow? The teachings of Jesus were counter to those of the Law-and-order "garden variety" of morality, civic norms in his community. He was a maverick.

    You are on a bus in Selma, Alabama in 1958 and a frail old black lady gets on and wants to sit down and there are empty seats in the front of the bus but the driver says " All ni-ggers" go to the back of the bus. You are very upset by this racist treatment since your religious upbringing teached you that we are all God's children and you are your brother's keeper. Do you make a scene and object because you know that it is the moral thing to do both in your heart and from your religious education. You wonder if you speak out, will the townspeople tell the KKK and they will call you a ni-gger lover and burn down your house next week. Who is your boss here?

    You are a high school basketball coach for a lily-white WASP suburban community and are in the process in October of choosing two more spots on the team. There are four kids in the last cut, two Protestants, a black, and a confessed gay. The black and the gay are the better players. Your job security is based on how successful your team is but also on the recommendation of the prejudiced school board. What do you do? Your family's prosperity and happiness is one boss while your religion tells you something else. Who is your boss?


    "That doesn't mean Christians have to follow unjust laws. It does mean they need to try to change those laws in an appropriate manner." --- 67Redsox


    In each of the above situations, was there time to change laws, deliberate, change public / peer opinion. No, it was time to act upon your religious convictions. Many with the "garden variety morality" would have made the easy decision, the easy way out. Only those who subscribe to one leader would choose the more difficult road. It is not easy to follow your religious convictions. You can only serve ONE BOSS.
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Having gay friends is a good thing, condoning their behavior is not.
    Posted by 67redsox



    wow
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

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    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : You can only follow one God. You seem to feel that way on abortion ( common abortion, via the pill, IUD,) as murder. After reading your rationale of when life begins I am inclined to agree with you on the contraception issue. I never got into the details of how the pill and IUD work. I really don't see how using a condom is much different from using the rhythm method.   In rereading the thread I was surprised at your above comments that are highlighted. I've also reread comments by Chilliwings and JesseyEric about morality. It made me ponder what teachings of Jesus would be different from the generic "garden variety" standards of "morality" that you claim to be attributable to being "accountable" and a good citizen or patriot. Our law system writes the standards of what being a law-abiding citizen should be and our nationality / patriotism dictates what a good patriot should be. Common sense, common decency, the Golden Rule , and peer group pressure add to the "garden variety" as I've said before, you are putting your personal beliefs above others' based on dogma, that's outrageous. definition of morality that many civilized people adhere to. So through generations we all learn from ancestors what it means to be charitable, a good citizen, a patriot, good mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. We learn what to do to stay out of jail and how not be be the target of town gossip. So the question is what benefit did I or 67Redsox and others in this thread gain by attending religious education classes in Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish institutions, or by going to church and listening to sermons or homilies over our lifetimes? What makes Christians or religious Jews different than those who obtain their morality in other ways?  I will make an attempt to answer these questions by asking you several questions. If you can only have one boss or God to rely on to make decisions in your life and the advice may conflict from several different bosses then who do you choose? Jesus told you "Thou shalt not kill" ( see 67Redsox thoughts on abortion above). Peer group pressure and the Pro-Choice advocates may tell you that what a woman decides to do with her own body is supreme but what would Jesus say? Didn't he say "Thou shalt not kill"? You are right out of college in 1965 and the country is involved in the Viet Nam War and you are drafted. Your buddies from high school have enlisted and the townspeople ( peer group pressure) are proud of them. As a true patriot you must follow them or be scorned upon and be disowned by the community. Yet your church and Jesus told you that Jesus said "Love your enemies" and "Thou shalt not kill". Do you become a consciencious objector, move to Canada, or foresake your religion in order to obey the God of patriotism? The decision involves how you must answer to Jesus upon reaching Heaven.  Nope, nothing to do whether one believes in gods.  What would I do?  Can't say for sure, obviously, but I feel certain I would have participated in WW2, and would have gone to Canada (rather than jail) over Vietnam.  Violence is only, if ever, acceptable in self-defence.  You might be standing in a line that includes Iraqi soldiers who bulldozed live enemy troops into a ditch while they were sleeping, Nazis who were following orders and rounded up Jews to strip and walk into the shower which was a gas chamber. Will Jesus forgive you, then he also has to be consistent and forgive the Iraqi and the Nazi. Who is your God here, your patriotism or you God Jesus Christ? What is your question, it's not clear.  You are called to jury duty and are told that a guilty verdict might mean that the defendant will be put to death. As a citizen, you feel as if it is your civic duty ( peer pressure) and many good people in town with " garden variey" morality tell you "send the no-good S-OB to the electric chair. They believe in the Old Testament code of an eye for an eye, but you believe inthe New Testament teachings of the man who called himself the Son of God named Jesus. Jesus said "thou shalt not kill". Who is your God here, who do you follow? Violence, esp. killing, is totally wrong, except in self-defence.  Again you assume people with a different source of their morality - even though their morality is similar to yours are somehow lesser.  I would never agree to capital punishment in any circumstances...and as you might guess, I'd enjoy being the lone voice.  ;-) - You are on a bus in Selma, Alabama in 1958 and a frail old black lady gets on and wants to sit down and there are empty seats in the front of the bus but the driver says " All ni-ggers" go to the back of the bus. You are very upset by this racist treatment since your religious upbringing teached you that we are all God's children and you are your brother's keeper. Do you make a scene and object because you know that it is the moral thing to do both in your heart and from your religious education. You wonder if you speak out, will the townspeople tell the KKK and they will call you a ni-gger lover and burn down your house next week. Who is your boss here?   I think and hope I would make a scene in those circumstances.  I do similar things all the time and my girlfriend despairs and thinks I'll be killed someday.  The only fights I've been involved in since I was 11 have been breaking them up, including strangers' fights...I hate violence.  I was badly injured a few years back doing it.  I also make comments even when people litter on the street in front of me...some people hate that...luckily I'm big but even then I get tons of aggro, esp. when it's a group of young men, esp. late at night when they're drunk.  You are a high school basketball coach for a lily-white WASP suburban community and are in the process in October of choosing two more spots on the team. There are four kids in the last cut, two Protestants, a black, and a confessed gay. The black and the gay are the better players. Your job security is based on how successful your team is but also on the recommendation of the prejudiced school board. What do you do? Your family's prosperity and happiness is one boss while your religion tells you something else. Who is your boss?  I'm my boss.  Of course the best players are chosen!  How can you possibly assume a religious person would choose the right path and a non-religious person wouldn't?  That is so insulting! "That doesn't mean Christians have to follow unjust laws. It does mean they need to try to change those laws in an appropriate manner." --- 67Redsox And if they choose to break the law, they should go to jail or be sued and lose their business.  I totally agree.  Someone's personal views are not more important than another's civil rights.  In each of the above situations, was there time to change laws, deliberate, change public / peer opinion. No, it was time to act upon your religious convictions. Many with the "garden variety morality" i.e. not yours, so patronising! would have made the easy decision, the easy way out. assume away Only those who subscribe to one leader would choose the more difficult road. False It is not easy to follow your religious convictions. You can only serve ONE BOSS.  Look, you've chosen an unseen, unknowable entity to tell you what's right and wrong.  And I'm happy for you.  And I assume such beliefs can make some people behave better.  But to assume everyone that doesn't share your beliefs - or believes in different gods, perhaps? - is somehow less moral that you cannot be something a moral  god could support.
    Posted by lowelll


    I haven't been on this thread for hours having said I was out, but I have to respond to this post (above, in bold).  I think it's riddled with assumptions.
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    Dogma of Jesus Christ is my religion. It is real for me, to you it may be dogma but not for me. You believe what you wish to and I'll believe what I wish to. Youtr logic is no better than mine.

    WW2 would have been a tougher choice to make but once again Jesus said " You should not kill".

    The question was " Why is patriotism an excuse after your actions resulted in the murder of others?" Wasn't that obvious?


    I was surprised that your "garden variety" morality was so similar to mine on so many topics. I attribute much of mine to my religious upbringing and you do not. I believe than a certain percentage of morality comes to us through a spirit or a higher entity and those cultures / civilizations seperated by oceans, mountain ranges, communication, language, and missionaries - centuries ago had a common set of  a code of what was moral and not. Hats off to you for following the teachings of Jesus without attributing it to religion. Jesus won't care as long as some other force implanted those morals into your brain. Aren't you glad that the force that put the morals of Saddam Hussein into his skull didn't permeate your brain? You are fortunate indeed. Saddam was patriotic, followed the laws of his land, was admired by his peer group, and was dedicated but rejected the morality that was in the air about him. You accepted that air morality and he did not.
     
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    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : You can only follow one God. You seem to feel that way on abortion ( common abortion, via the pill, IUD,) as murder. After reading your rationale of when life begins I am inclined to agree with you on the contraception issue. I never got into the details of how the pill and IUD work. I really don't see how using a condom is much different from using the rhythm method.   In rereading the thread I was surprised at your above comments that are highlighted. I've also reread comments by Chilliwings and JesseyEric about morality. It made me ponder what teachings of Jesus would be different from the generic "garden variety" standards of "morality" that you claim to be attributable to being "accountable" and a good citizen or patriot. Our law system writes the standards of what being a law-abiding citizen should be and our nationality / patriotism dictates what a good patriot should be. Common sense, common decency, the Golden Rule , and peer group pressure add to the "garden variety" definition of morality that many civilized people adhere to. So through generations we all learn from ancestors what it means to be charitable, a good citizen, a patriot, good mothers, fathers, brothers, and sisters. We learn what to do to stay out of jail and how not be be the target of town gossip.
     

    So the question is what benefit did I or 67Redsox and others in this thread gain by attending religious education classes in Catholic, Protestant, or Jewish institutions, or by going to church and listening to sermons or homilies over our lifetimes? What makes Christians or religious Jews different than those who obtain their morality in other ways?  

    I attend church to worship God because He is my God and worthy of adoration.  I learn more about my God because I want to know more about the one I love. I pray because there is no growth in a relationship without communication.


    I will make an attempt to answer these questions by asking you several questions. If you can only have one boss or God to rely on to make decisions in your life and the advice may conflict from several different bosses then who do you choose? Jesus told you "Thou shalt not kill" ( see 67Redsox thoughts on abortion above). Peer group pressure and the Pro-Choice advocates may tell you that what a woman decides to do with her own body is supreme but what would Jesus say? Didn't he say "Thou shalt not kill"?

    I worked in a pro-life clinic so I have first hand experience in this area.  When a women says 'it's my body, you can't tell me to do with my body' I say ' so you have two heads four arms and four legs and perhaps a male organ'

    A child in his/her mothers womb is not part of the woman's body.  The child has his own body and dna, two separate people.  The mother feeds the child and keeps it safe.  Not unlike what a mom does with her child outside the womb.

    I have counselled women who regret having aborted their child.  The depth of their sorrow is profound and I will never forget the sound of their crying.  It reaches into the very marrow of your bones.


    You are right out of college in 1965 and the country is involved in the Viet Nam War and you are drafted. Your buddies from high school have enlisted and the townspeople ( peer group pressure) are proud of them. As a true patriot you must follow them or be scorned upon and be disowned by the community. Yet your church and Jesus told you that Jesus said "Love your enemies" and "Thou shalt not kill". Do you become a consciencious objector, move to Canada, or foresake your religion in order to obey the God of patriotism? The decision involves how you must answer to Jesus upon reaching Heaven.
     
    The catholic church has a 'just war' teaching.  Going to war has to meet certain criteria.  You are welcomed to google it to learn more. If the vietnam war doesn't meet the criterea then it's not a just law and should not be followed.

    I believe legal abortion is an unjust law so I will never support it or help a woman in any way to have an abortion.


    You might be standing in a line that includes Iraqi soldiers who bulldozed live enemy troops into a ditch while they were sleeping, Nazis who were following orders and rounded up Jews to strip and walk into the shower which was a gas chamber.

    Fr. Maxamilan Kolbe was a prisoner in the nazi death camps. The nazis rounded up catholics as well as jews. A married man with children had is name called for execution. Fr. Kolbe stepped forward to take the mans place to suffer a prolonged and horrible death.

    There are many stories of brave men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice to fight the nazis cause. They did not follow the unjust law you listed above.


    Will Jesus forgive you, then he also has to be consistent and forgive the Iraqi and the Nazi. Who is your God here, your patriotism or you God Jesus Christ?

    I can be true to my God and to just laws as long as I'm willing to give up my life instead of following unjust laws.

    You are called to jury duty and are told that a guilty verdict might mean that the defendant will be put to death. As a citizen, you feel as if it is your civic duty ( peer pressure) and many good people in town with " garden variey" morality tell you "send the no-good S-OB to the electric chair. They believe in the Old Testament code of an eye for an eye, but you believe inthe New Testament teachings of the man who called himself the Son of God named Jesus. Jesus said "thou shalt not kill". Who is your God here, who do you follow?
     
    I've been on jury duty, they ask questions of potential jurors to weed out those who may not work out on a particular jury.  I won't be chosen.  Secondly you are not allowed to talk about the case, I couldn't even share the details with my husband.  So I would not be on the jury , if I was my neighbors wouldn't know the details and as you may be able to tell I'm not easily swayed by other's opinions.

    You are on a bus in Selma, Alabama in 1958 and a frail old black lady gets on and wants to sit down and there are empty seats in the front of the bus but the driver says " All ni-ggers" go to the back of the bus. You are very upset by this racist treatment since your religious upbringing teached you that we are all God's children and you are your brother's keeper. Do you make a scene and object because you know that it is the moral thing to do both in your heart and from your religious education. You wonder if you speak out, will the townspeople tell the KKK and they will call you a ni-gger lover and burn down your house next week. Who is your boss here?

    When I worked at the pro life center I had a young pregnant girl who was the girlfriend of a gang member as a client.  He abused her so I offered her a room in my home.  Sorry to say she stayed with the guy.  If she did come to live with me I'm sure her gang member boyfriend would have been less than pleased.

    To answer your question I hope I would have done the right thing on the bus.

    You are a high school basketball coach for a lily-white WASP suburban community and are in the process in October of choosing two more spots on the team. There are four kids in the last cut, two Protestants, a black, and a confessed gay. The black and the gay are the better players. Your job security is based on how successful your team is but also on the recommendation of the prejudiced school board. What do you do? Your family's prosperity and happiness is one boss while your religion tells you something else. Who is your boss?

    I was in charge of getting a limo that could hold 20 kids when my son was going to his prom in high school.  One boy was taking a girl behind her parents back because she wasn't allowed to go to the prom.  I told the boy he could ride in the limo but not his date. I couldn't be a part of the lie.

    His mother backed the boy so requested that I explain the situation to him.  The mother wouldn't step up to the plate to do the right thing, I had to.

    My son was angry with me to say the least not to mention the other kids who came to my house for the limo.  I believe, even though my name was mud at the time, I taught my son to do the right thing even though it was very difficult.  It is never fun to suffer the rath of a teenager!!!

    I taught him that the right thing to do is always the right thing to do.

    By the way when he was in college he got caught by the police because he was drinking under age at a party.  I never would have found out but he told me because he has a well formed conscience. I like to think in some small way I helped form his conscience.

    To answer your question I would hope I would do the right thing by accepting the black and gay kid onto the team.


    "That doesn't mean Christians have to follow unjust laws. It does mean they need to try to change those laws in an appropriate manner." --- 67Redsox In each of the above situations, was there time to change laws, deliberate, change public / peer opinion. No, it was time to act upon your religious convictions. Many with the "garden variety morality" would have made the easy decision, the easy way out. Only those who subscribe to one leader would choose the more difficult road. It is not easy to follow your religious convictions. You can only serve ONE BOSS.
    Posted by lowelll



    I still believe and my catholic faith teaches that I'm called to be a good citizen and a good catholic. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Alan-inWA. Show Alan-inWA's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Everytime I am out, they pull me back in. The Bible - Homosexuality is supposedly referenced to in the New Testament in several places. Paul's Letter to the Romans 1: 21-28; Paul's Letter to the Corinthians 6:9 - 10 and Jude 7 (Sodom and Gomorrah). Considering when these texts were written and the language used and the translation thereafter, you cannot walk away saying with 100 % certainty that they are speaking of homosexuals in anyway shape or form. And my question to all our esteemed Bible followers, I ask; please reference one place, or one letter or one writing where Jesus himself is quoted as saying homosexuality is against the laws of his father and heaven ? Do not give me some loosely defined statement that can be open to misinterpretation. I want you to point out to me where Jesus gave this specific directive . Afterall, Christianity is founded from this man's teachings, crucifiction and believed resurection. Jesus said:  “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’  This is the greatest and first commandment.  And the second is like it:  ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets .” There is no war on Catholicism; that is for sure. There is no one more holy than my mother. She is every bit the Roman Catholic Italian stereo-type that you could find. She will celebrate 93 this coming Saturday and let me be perfectly clear on this, she goes nowhere without her rosary beads, a picture of Jesus (Sacred Heart), a small palm folded in the form or a cross and a medallian of Mother Mary. She does not feel betrayed by her only son who has walked away from the religion that she raised him in. Her words, "I taught my son to think for himself". There is no war - there is no one tough enough to take on this old Sicilian woman. And watch out if she has her older and younger sister by her side - then you are in really big trouble. And without getting into any long story, she will tell you that one should hold God true to their heart and do what you can to maintain a life which is rewarding to not only yourself, but the world around you. And d*mn to hell what any Priest, Rabbi, Iman and book would tell you for most of them only read the words and have no idea what those words actually mean. Remember, some of these words we quote as scripture were written more than 1900 years ago, back in a time when the language spoken and translated were easily mistaken in meaning. You cannot believe for one minute that words used to describe a time and place which seem barbaric to us now, can possibly mean the same thing today, especially through all the different translations.
    Posted by jesseyeric


    Romans 1:24-32

    King James Version (KJV)

    24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

    25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

    30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

    31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

    32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : wow
    Posted by BurritoT


    Flip that around and it spells MOM
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    The difference is a believers good acts have spiritual value while a non believers doesn't.  Non believers shouldn't find that to be offensive.

    I think that kind of has to be wrong.  If Jessey and I are driving down a street, see a really old lady crossing a makor intersection, and we stop to help her across, God gives me more points than Jessey?

    How about if Jessey was a Muslim?  Baptism is mostly like genetics, you have no choice.  Does a Catholic get more points than a Muslim?

    Will a mediocre Catholic score more points than a truly virtuous atheist?

    If one of your kids becomes an antheist, would you love them any less?  Or appreciate their good acts any less?  Would God not treat as we would our children?
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    Only those who subscribe to one leader would choose the more difficult road. It is not easy to follow your religious convictions. You can only serve ONE BOSS

    On the black lady, you stand up and give her your seat.

    But on the rest of them, Jesus gives us a perfect out.  Render unto Ceasar...

    You can protest a law, but still follow it.  If you can't follow the death penalty, you tell the DA and he'll make the decision for you.

    I don't think God will think any less of you for becoming a soldier.  Pretty sure Cardinal O'Connor had a position in the military.  You could actually make a case that have beleivers in the military is a good thing when it comes to the pros and cons of razing a village.
     
  16. This post has been removed.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jesseyeric. Show jesseyeric's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Question: "What does the Bible say about homosexuality? Is homosexuality a sin?" Answer: The Bible consistently tells us that homosexual activity is a sin ( Genesis 19:1-13 ; Leviticus 18:22 ; 20:13 ; Romans 1:26-27 ; 1 Corinthians 6:9 ). Romans 1:26-27 teaches specifically that homosexuality is a result of denying and disobeying God. When people continue in sin and unbelief, God “gives them over” to even more wicked and depraved sin in order to show them the futility and hopelessness of life apart from God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 proclaims that homosexual “offenders” will not inherit the kingdom of God. God does not create a person with homosexual desires. The Bible tells us that people become homosexuals because of sin ( Romans 1:24-27 ) and ultimately because of their own choice. A person may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people are born with a tendency to violence and other sins. That does not excuse the person’s choosing to sin by giving in to sinful desires. If a person is born with a greater susceptibility to anger/rage, does that make it right for him to give into those desires? Of course not! The same is true with homosexuality. However, the Bible does not describe homosexuality as a “greater” sin than any other. All sin is offensive to God. Homosexuality is just one of the many things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 that will keep a person from the kingdom of God. According to the Bible, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God also promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation ( 1 Corinthians 6:11 ; 2 Corinthians 5:17 ; Philippians 4:13 ). http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/06/30/bible-passages-that-oppose-homosexuality-including-the-words-of-jesus-and-god-himself/ http://thebible.net/modules.php?name=Read&itemid=81&cat=9 I can only tell you what my church teaches and what I believe.  I would never in a million years make a negative comment on what your mother said to you.  Your love for her is admirable. Since you're not a practicing catholic I don't think you can comment on if there is or is not a war on catholicism. Until you walk a mile in my shoes.... Please read the below link. I have met fr. groeschel a couple of times. His love for those who suffer is profound. http://courage2bchaste.wordpress.com/2011/10/11/introduction-for-the-homosexual-person-by-fr-benedict-groeschel/ Jessey, this is my last post to you on this subject.  I think anymore dialogue between us will only cause irreparable damage while accomplishing nothing good.
    Posted by 67redsox


    67 - no it won't, but you did not give me one real answer to my question. Jesus said nothing about homosexuality. It is not a mental disorder, it is not a disease, it is not wrong  - it is what it is and you all need to get over it.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from lowelll. Show lowelll's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    Only those who subscribe to one leader would choose the more difficult road. It is not easy to follow your religious convictions. You can only serve ONE BOSS On the black lady, you stand up and give her your seat. But on the rest of them, Jesus gives us a perfect out.  Render unto Ceasar... You can protest a law, but still follow it.  If you can't follow the death penalty, you tell the DA and he'll make the decision for you. I don't think God will think any less of you for becoming a soldier.  Pretty sure Cardinal O'Connor had a position in the military.  You could actually make a case that have beleivers in the military is a good thing when it comes to the pros and cons of razing a village.
    Posted by Joebreidey



    God wouldn't think less of you for clicking your heels and saying "Heil Hitler" and then murdering ten million Jews? You must be kidding me? What are the pros of razing a village according to the teachings of Jesus? Jesus NEVER would have dropped a bomb on Japan, there is no rationalization to mass killing. NONE AT ALL. You sound more like a patriot instead of a follower of Jesus.
    Render unto Ceasar quote needs to be placed into the proper contaxt.

    The synoptic gospels state that hostile questioners tried to trap Jesus into taking an explicit and dangerous stand on whether Jews should or should not pay taxes to the Roman authorities. The accounts in Matthew and Mark say that the questioners were Pharisees and Herodians, while Luke says only that they were "spies" sent by "teachers of the law and the chief priests".

    They anticipated that Jesus would oppose the tax, as their purpose was "to hand him over to the power and authority of the governor" (Luke 20:20). The governor was Pilate, and he was the man responsible for the collecting of taxes in Roman Judea. At first the questioners flattered Jesus by praising his integrity, impartiality, and devotion to truth. Then they asked him whether or not it is right for Jews to pay the taxes demanded by Caesar. In the Gospel of Mark (12:15) the additional, provocative question is asked, "Should we pay or shouldn't we?" Jesus first called them hypocrites, and then asked one of them to produce a Roman coin that would be suitable for paying Caesar's tax. One of them showed him a Roman coin, and he asked them whose name and inscription were on it. They answered, "Caesar's," and he responded

    "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's"

    The questioners were impressed (Matthew 22:22 states that they "marvelled", ἐθαύμασαν) and satisfied with the answer, they went away.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : I would like to address a few of your comments. You said power is the central issue and that you don't want the pope making a determination on who can use birth control.  You said you were disturbed by these thoughts. I am afraid of the power issue also but from a different source, the federal government. Obama is overreaching his authority and he is using obamacare to do it. If you do some research into the over 2,000 pages of obamacare you will find that provisions have been made for a number of departments to be created (some already exist). The department heads will be appointed by obama. The departments heads will have the power to interpret how parts obamacare should be carried out.   Remember pelozi told congress they had to pass the bill in order to know what's in it. Congress had only 3 days to read the bill.  Three separate people wrote the bill so there is no consistency. There is a lot of wiggle room for the interpretation and the carrying out of parts this bill. Kathleen sebelius is the secretary for health and human services.  She is one of the non-elected appointed heads of the departments in obamacare. She is the one who put forth this law.  It wasn't discussed in the house then put to a vote.  It wasn't passed on to the senete to be discussed the put to a vote. If the bill made it pass the house and senate then it would have been up to obama to approve it or not. From obama's lips to her ears, a new law was born. Who needs that pesky old constitution with it's balance of power. I'm sure obama will always do the right thing for this country.  Republic, representatives of the people, for the people and by the people. What is silly old antiquated idea. Anyone note a hint of sarcasm on my part? Since she is not elected she can't be voted out of office if 'we the people' don't like what she's doing. Obama can simply tell his appointees what he wants, under obamacare they have the legel right to interpret that law as they see fit, so they decree the laws obama wants. Genius!  Obama has negated the balance of power.  He doesn't have to go through the house and senate anymore. There are many other departments provided for in this bill so obama will be appointing many other heads who will be at his bidding. Right now he is targeting catholics because there is a general anti-catholic feeling in this country so we are easy marks.  You said it yourself, you don't want the pope controlling you. If the general public continues to support this maddnens the man will gain more power.  He will make the people we elect to represent us powerless therefore useless. It is inevitable that one day your freedoms will be taken away from you because that's what happens when socialism takes root.  Remember obama wants to share the wealth so that means taking from you what is rightfully yours to give to someone else. If you don't find this disturbing then I don't know what to say. By the way, jew, protestants and other groups are backing this fight against freedom of religion.  They, especially the jews, can see the righting on the wall.
    Posted by 67redsox


    Obamacare is a thread unto itself, but for the most part I agree with you that the law is a mess.  I think overall it's a step in the right direction, and will utlimately save some lives, but I fully support any attempts to improve it, or any serious alternatives.

    But whether or not you like Obama, he is our President - yours and mine.  The Pope is just yours.  He shouldn't have any more power over me than the Dalai Lama has over you. 

    One of the strange things I find about your argument is that you keep coming back to individual freedoms, but who is the individual in your argument?   Is it the Church?  Is that an individual?  Or do you think that the law should exempt say any devout catholic who is also a small business owner, or sits on a board of directors?  It seems to me like the employee is the only individual in the scenario, and she is the one whose rights are in jeopardy.  

    Just one point on the homosexual motif - when people get upset or angry about these comments, I don't think it's an attack on your faith, but the nature of your beliefs on this issue (classifying one's sexual orientation as a disorder) is viewed as a personal attack on somebody who holds his or her sexual identity as meaningful as you hold your faith.  I think what's frustrating for the average secular Joe is that there are so many parts of the Bible that are even the most devout Christians will shrug off as anachronistic or unimportant, but when it comes to something that is at best mentioned in passing, it has somehow become a crusade.  In a lot of ways, the birth control argument is similar - who gets to decide that homosexuals and condom users will burn in hell, but it's fine to be married five times, or take the Lord's name in vain, or sit a Big Papi bobble-head on your mantle?


     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from BurritoT. Show BurritoT's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    slomag a voice of reason
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from lowelll. Show lowelll's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    Great post Slomag.  Somehow it seems that politics has superseded religious views here. Where is the Pope's opinions against war and corporate robbery? Where is the Pope's opinion about gun control? Don't see it.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Our love of Jesus is a good thing!
    Posted by 67redsox


    Amen, Sistah!
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion : Obamacare is a thread unto itself, but for the most part I agree with you that the law is a mess.  I think overall it's a step in the right direction, and will utlimately save some lives, but I fully support any attempts to improve it, or any serious alternatives. But whether or not you like Obama, he is our President - yours and mine.  The Pope is just yours.  He shouldn't have any more power over me than the Dalai Lama has over you.  One of the strange things I find about your argument is that you keep coming back to individual freedoms, but who is the individual in your argument?   Is it the Church?  Is that an individual?  Or do you think that the law should exempt say any devout catholic who is also a small business owner, or sits on a board of directors?  It seems to me like the employee is the only individual in the scenario, and she is the one whose rights are in jeopardy.   Just one point on the homosexual motif - when people get upset or angry about these comments, I don't think it's an attack on your faith, but the nature of your beliefs on this issue (classifying one's sexual orientation as a disorder) is viewed as a personal attack on somebody who holds his or her sexual identity as meaningful as you hold your faith.  I think what's frustrating for the average secular Joe is that there are so many parts of the Bible that are even the most devout Christians will shrug off as anachronistic or unimportant, but when it comes to something that is at best mentioned in passing, it has somehow become a crusade.  In a lot of ways, the birth control argument is similar - who gets to decide that homosexuals and condom users will burn in hell, but it's fine to be married five times, or take the Lord's name in vain, or sit a Big Papi bobble-head on your mantle?
    Posted by slomag



    Who gets to decide if homosexuality is ok? Just because you say it is does that make it so? If so then why? Could it possibly be that you are wrong? 

    Could it possibly be God or nature, if you find that more palatable, made a man and woman's body to fit together perfectly so the two become one while a man's body with a man and a woman's body with a woman aren't made to have that intimate oneness.
     

    Who gets to decide why taking religious freedom away from catholics is ok?

    Who gets to decide to take homosexuality off the mental health list without any statistics to prove it is not a mental health issue?

    Why is it that you are right and I am wrong?  Mercifully I live in a state that believes I am right and you are wrong.  We the people voted into state law that marriage is between one man and one women. We are one of many states to do so.

    Who decided that  gay marriage should be legal in Mass.  A judge!  How is it in a republic that a judge is allowed to make laws.  States that are allowed to vote have chosen the one man and one woman marriage law.

    Even in California the people through their vote tossed out the gay marriage law that was set up by a judge.  A judge went against the peoples will to put the law back in place. It seems a whole lot of people believe as I do.

    Obama said he would not enforce the defence of marriage act. So now the president has decided he is above the law. 


    If you are really afraid of losing your freedoms look into obamacare.  It's the catholics right now because we are an easy target as is evident on this board.  Eventually the rest of you will be affected. 

    You are so horrified catholics do not want to include elective surgery like sterilization and an elected form of abortion, the pill and morning after pill, in their health care plan.


    Again I ask you what insurance plan covers the removal of or mutilation of perfectly healthy organs? None, but please don't allow me to confuse you with the truth.


    It is pretty typical and kind of pedestrian to bring the pope into this. Every ant-catholic loves to jump on that bandwagon.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from 67redsox. Show 67redsox's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    In Response to Re: Athletes and religion:
    Great post Slomag.  Somehow it seems that politics has superseded religious views here. Where is the Pope's opinions against war and corporate robbery? Where is the Pope's opinion about gun control? Don't see it.
    Posted by lowelll


    Attacking the pope, that's a novel approach LOL!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from teilhardian. Show teilhardian's posts

    Re: Athletes and religion

    My parents are from the Republic of Ireland, but my wife is from Belfast where her "mixed" (as in both religions) family learned the hard way about religious and sectarian bigotry, and about those who claim to be "Christian".  Still, a dark Northern Ireland sense of humor always seems to trump the absurdity of same, as this Ulster-born bit of drollery suggests:

     

    There is an Irishman getting ready to jump to his death from a bridge

    when a Priest walks past. The man turns to the Priest and says,

    "Don't try to stop me father, I'm going to jump."

    "Don't jump." says the Priest, "It can't be that bad. Think of the life

    you have yet to live."

    "That's one of the reasons I'm jumping" Says the Irish man.

    "Well if that won't stop you, think about your family." says the Priest.

    "That's another reason." says the Irish man.

    "Well think about your job." says the Priest.

    "There's another reason." says the Irish man.

    "Well if that won't stop you think about St. Patrick." says the Priest.

    "Who's that?" asks the Irish man.

    "Jump you Protestant -------." says the Priest

     

    An early Happy St. Pattys Day to everyone on this forum.......




     
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