Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to Sobchack's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The NYY went on a spending spree and it landed them at 41-41. McCann, Ellsbury, Beltran are not earning their salaries. And the NYY offense can be considered a relatively BIGGER disappointment based on who's in that lineup.

    But, the NYY roster is not the Sox problem.  The Sox problem is that they gambled on assuming Nava would keep up what he did - didn't work; Bradley is an offensive disaster; Victorino walks like a DL, talks like DL, is a DL lifer - it caught up with them; Drew needs no explanation; Bogaerts is feeling the wear and tear of being shuffled.

    Sometimes the "human" aspect of the game trumps sabermetrics.  You can't carry over Nava's 2013 WAR into 2014 because he is a person not a  video game character.  Or anyone else's for that matter.

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  The conversation always seems to come back to the Yankees overpaying. It seems to me that the posters on here are more concerned with that than is Yankee management. The Yankees have also struggled, but they are still 4 or 5 games up on us, while missing three from the rotation. Even so, I am sure that Yankee management is very disappointed in the results so far. I wonder if Girardi might be on the line for it?  Our concern should be the Red Sox and what has gone wrong .  To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be? 

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to AL34's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bradley looks great does'nt he ? The guy cannot hit a fastball nor hit his weight. But he is at major league minimum something Luchinno loves.

    [/QUOTE]

    Ha ha...yeah, the entire team is composed of kids...we have no veterans and nobody getting paid much money.

    [/QUOTE]

    I am talking about the major league minimum rookies who look awful at this point.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be? 

    [/QUOTE]

    Come on gale, you're a smart guy, you know that nobody is saying 'there is no problem at all'.  No one is arguing with the obvious fact that our offense has been horrible.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    The conversation always seems to come back to the Yankees overpaying. It seems to me that the posters on here are more concerned with that than is Yankee management. The Yankees have also struggled, but they are still 4 or 5 games up on us, while missing three from the rotation. Even so, I am sure that Yankee management is very disappointed in the results so far. I wonder if Girardi might be on the line for it?  Our concern should be the Red Sox and what has gone wrong .  To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be?


    Bringing up Yankees is relevant because many posters seemed to see them as the actualization of what they wanted the Red Sox to do this winter. A lot of people wanted us to pay to keep Ellsbury, who is having an okay but unremarkable season, or to sign McCann or Beltran, who have been terrible. People thought the Yanks were going to be a juggernaut with all of those big additions, but if not for Tanaka they might be in the cellar.


    Clearly our concern is with what happens to the Red Sox, and clearly a lot of things have not turned out as Ben -- or various others among us (myself included) -- hoped they would. JBJ being ready to step up offensively and make up at least some of Ellsbury's production is just one example. But the results of the Yankees' signings matter because they show that the "spend spend spend" crowd from last winter was not in possession of a crystal ball, either. I doubt anyone is looking at our outfield right now and thinking "Man, I wish we'd signed Carlos Beltran."

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Flapjack07. Show Flapjack07's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    And seriously, we need to let the Ellsbury thing go. He's gone. The contract he got is nuts, and on top of that he's having a fairly down year statistically and people would be complaining just as much if he was here. He was the quintessential Boras guy who was always going to go to free agency and go with the highest bidder, which was not likely to be us...I understood this long before 2013, which I guess is why the protracted lamentation over his departure is a little puzzling to me.

    One can argue that the Sox should have had a better backup plan for JBJ (Sizemore was not a backup plan in any meaningful sense, as I argued this spring), and I'd agree, but that is a different matter.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to Flapjack07's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The conversation always seems to come back to the Yankees overpaying. It seems to me that the posters on here are more concerned with that than is Yankee management. The Yankees have also struggled, but they are still 4 or 5 games up on us, while missing three from the rotation. Even so, I am sure that Yankee management is very disappointed in the results so far. I wonder if Girardi might be on the line for it?  Our concern should be the Red Sox and what has gone wrong .  To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be?

     

    Bringing up Yankees is relevant because many posters seemed to see them as the actualization of what they wanted the Red Sox to do this winter. A lot of people wanted us to pay to keep Ellsbury, who is having an okay but unremarkable season, or to sign McCann or Beltran, who have been terrible. People thought the Yanks were going to be a juggernaut with all of those big additions, but if not for Tanaka they might be in the cellar.

     

    Clearly our concern is with what happens to the Red Sox, and clearly a lot of things have not turned out as Ben -- or various others among us (myself included) -- hoped they would. JBJ being ready to step up offensively and make up at least some of Ellsbury's production is just one example. But the results of the Yankees' signings matter because they show that the "spend spend spend" crowd from last winter was not in possession of a crystal ball, either. I doubt anyone is looking at our outfield right now and thinking "Man, I wish we'd signed Carlos Beltran."

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  To say the Yankees have under achieved would be a huge understatement. That is why I wonder how secure Girardi's job is.  Or Cashman's . As for us, things truly have not turned out as we all hoped. But Ben is the guy who has to be accountable for it. It is his responsibility. Give him credit when things work , but he should be criticized when they don't. That is what I have been saying. People say, " who could have seen this coming?" Well, it is his job to see it. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be? 

    [/QUOTE]

    Come on gale, you're a smart guy, you know that nobody is saying 'there is no problem at all'.  No one is arguing with the obvious fact that our offense has been horrible.

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement] That is right. The question is: What is the reason for the problem? And what can be done about it?  Besides hoping that our young prospects develop into quality major league players.  I think Ben needs to be more active and aggressive. Not be afraid to make a mistake. We can always find a reason why we should not sign this, that or the other guy. I don't think that is a good business plan. We should always be looking to upgrade and improve. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be? 

    [/QUOTE]

    Come on gale, you're a smart guy, you know that nobody is saying 'there is no problem at all'.  No one is arguing with the obvious fact that our offense has been horrible.

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement] That is right. The question is: What is the reason for the problem? And what can be done about it?  Besides hoping that our young prospects develop into quality major league players.  I think Ben needs to be more active and aggressive. Not be afraid to make a mistake. We can always find a reason why we should not sign this, that or the other guy. I don't think that is a good business plan. We should always be looking to upgrade and improve. 

    [/QUOTE]


    But, Ben did take some risks and maybe was not "afraid to make a mistake" when he pinned his hopes on Bogey, JBJ and others to take up the slack of losing Jacoby  & Salty.

    Regardless of what many posters think, I feel the player payroll budget is restricted. There was not a whole lot of money to spend last winter. Ben spread it out, instead of spending on 2 big free agents. Had he done that AND picked exactly right ( 2 from Abreu, Cruz or Tanaka), we'd have had to rely even more on prospects or near minimum wage players to fill out the rest of the 25 man roster.

    Signing Abreu and Tanaka would not have solved our OF and left-side IF issues.

    Signing Cruz and Tanaka would have left Nava, Middy or Carp playing 1B.

    Signing Cruz and Abreu would not have solved our 4/5 rotation slot issues or our problem at 3B/SS.

    Yeah, in perfect hindsight, maybe Ben could have stayed under the luxury limit and built a team that was a top competitor this year, but looking at the 3 guys I named here, I certainly can see why Ben did not sign 2 of the 3, so I'm not going to go on and on placing a lot of blame on him.

    This next winter is a different matter. There will be a lot of money for Ben to spend, a lot of team asking about our prospects, and hopefully some young players stepping up their production going forward.

    To me, next year starts at the end of this month. If Ben lets Lester, Uehara and to a lesser extent Miller and Badenhop go to  free agency with nothing but draft picks to show for them, he's off to a bad start and will have a lot of ground to make up in signings and trades.

    We have to extend Lester or get something big for him. That is priority #1. It would take a near miracle to build a 2015 championship without Jon's name on the roster.

    All this being said, I get your point about being aggressive and more active. I'd add the term "proactive" to it as well. I do think Ben goofed by not acquiring a big bat beyond extending Papi and Napoli (or perhaps instead of Napoli). Obviously, this team needed something more than what we had day one. I will say that even if we had Cruz and Abreu, instead of Napoli, Mujica, Drew, Badenhop, Sizemore, Pierzynski, and Capuano, but everyone else still put up the numbers they have this year, we'd not be much better off, especially if you figure that the players filling in the other open 25 man roster slots would have probably been worse than what we have gotten this year from our kids and role player fill-ins.

    Is this what our 25 man roster might have looked like?

    C: Ross, 1 from: Vazquez, Lava or Butler

    1B: Abreu, Carp

    2B: Pedroia, Holt

    3B: Middy (injured), Holt

    SS: Bogey, Holt

    LF: Nava/Gomes

    CF: Vic (injured), JBJ

    RF: Cruz, Holt

    DH: Ortiz

    SP: Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Buch, Doubie (Later: Workman & de la Rosa)

    RP: Uehara, Tazawa, Breslow, Miller, Wilson?, Britton?, ???

     

    Yeah, in hind sight, it would be addition by subtraction replacing Mujica, but replacing Badenhop or expecting others on the staff to pitch more innings is not something I would have felt warm and fuzzy about.

     

    I guess what I am trying to say is that with the low production of almost every positional player this year as compared to last year, this team was doomed no matter what Ben did.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to moonslav59's comment:


    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be? 




    Come on gale, you're a smart guy, you know that nobody is saying 'there is no problem at all'.  No one is arguing with the obvious fact that our offense has been horrible.


    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement] That is right. The question is: What is the reason for the problem? And what can be done about it?  Besides hoping that our young prospects develop into quality major league players.  I think Ben needs to be more active and aggressive. Not be afraid to make a mistake. We can always find a reason why we should not sign this, that or the other guy. I don't think that is a good business plan. We should always be looking to upgrade and improve. 


    [/QUOTE]


    But, Ben did take some risks and maybe was not "afraid to make a mistake" when he pinned his hopes on Bogey, JBJ and others to take up the slack of losing Jacoby  & Salty.


    Regardless of what many posters think, I feel the player payroll budget is restricted. There was not a whole lot of money to spend last winter. Ben spread it out, instead of spending on 2 big free agents. Had he done that AND picked exactly right ( 2 from Abreu, Cruz or Tanaka), we'd have had to rely even more on prospects or near minimum wage players to fill out the rest of the 25 man roster.


    Signing Abreu and Tanaka would not have solved our OF and left-side IF issues.


    Signing Cruz and Tanaka would have left Nava, Middy or Carp playing 1B.


    Signing Cruz and Abreu would not have solved our 4/5 rotation slot issues or our problem at 3B/SS.


    Yeah, in perfect hindsight, maybe Ben could have stayed under the luxury limit and built a team that was a top competitor this year, but looking at the 3 guys I named here, I certainly can see why Ben did not sign 2 of the 3, so I'm not going to go on and on placing a lot of blame on him.


    This next winter is a different matter. There will be a lot of money for Ben to spend, a lot of team asking about our prospects, and hopefully some young players stepping up their production going forward.


    To me, next year starts at the end of this month. If Ben lets Lester, Uehara and to a lesser extent Miller and Badenhop go to  free agency with nothing but draft picks to show for them, he's off to a bad start and will have a lot of ground to make up in signings and trades.


    We have to extend Lester or get something big for him. That is priority #1. It would take a near miracle to build a 2015 championship without Jon's name on the roster.


    All this being said, I get your point about being aggressive and more active. I'd add the term "proactive" to it as well. I do think Ben goofed by not acquiring a big bat beyond extending Papi and Napoli (or perhaps instead of Napoli). Obviously, this team needed something more than what we had day one. I will say that even if we had Cruz and Abreu, instead of Napoli, Mujica, Drew, Badenhop, Sizemore, Pierzynski, and Capuano, but everyone else still put up the numbers they have this year, we'd not be much better off, especially if you figure that the players filling in the other open 25 man roster slots would have probably been worse than what we have gotten this year from our kids and role player fill-ins.


    Is this what our 25 man roster might have looked like?


    C: Ross, 1 from: Vazquez, Lava or Butler


    1B: Abreu, Carp


    2B: Pedroia, Holt


    3B: Middy (injured), Holt


    SS: Bogey, Holt


    LF: Nava/Gomes


    CF: Vic (injured), JBJ


    RF: Cruz, Holt


    DH: Ortiz


    SP: Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Buch, Doubie (Later: Workman & de la Rosa)


    RP: Uehara, Tazawa, Breslow, Miller, Wilson?, Britton?, ???


     


    Yeah, in hind sight, it would be addition by subtraction replacing Mujica, but replacing Badenhop or expecting others on the staff to pitch more innings is not something I would have felt warm and fuzzy about.


     


    I guess what I am trying to say is that with the low production of almost every positional player this year as compared to last year, this team was doomed no matter what Ben did.


     


    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  Moon, it is certainly possible that Ben was told to limit the spending this off season. That would help absolve him for this mess, at least to an extent. But how can anyone reconcile that with throwing 10 mil at Drew. All I have heard on that is that he was needed to shore up the defense on the left side. Now, I am not a Drew hater like some are. But I see him for what he is. A decent ballplayer, nothing more or less. Not an impact player that can help turn things around. He is a guy that not one team in baseball thought was worth losing a draft pick.  To me, it makes no sense to pay him 10 mil for half a season. I get the feeling that it was done out of desperation and confusion as to how to salvage this season.  As I said earlier, it is not good when the only significant deals in the off season were to lose two of your key players. And, your only replacements were an aging catcher and an outfielder who had not played an inning in two years. Not a good plan. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to moonslav59's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to dgalehouse's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    To read some of the posts on here, there is no problem at all. Everything was done right. How can that be? 

    [/QUOTE]

    Come on gale, you're a smart guy, you know that nobody is saying 'there is no problem at all'.  No one is arguing with the obvious fact that our offense has been horrible.

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement] That is right. The question is: What is the reason for the problem? And what can be done about it?  Besides hoping that our young prospects develop into quality major league players.  I think Ben needs to be more active and aggressive. Not be afraid to make a mistake. We can always find a reason why we should not sign this, that or the other guy. I don't think that is a good business plan. We should always be looking to upgrade and improve. 

    [/QUOTE]


    But, Ben did take some risks and maybe was not "afraid to make a mistake" when he pinned his hopes on Bogey, JBJ and others to take up the slack of losing Jacoby  & Salty.

    Regardless of what many posters think, I feel the player payroll budget is restricted. There was not a whole lot of money to spend last winter. Ben spread it out, instead of spending on 2 big free agents. Had he done that AND picked exactly right ( 2 from Abreu, Cruz or Tanaka), we'd have had to rely even more on prospects or near minimum wage players to fill out the rest of the 25 man roster.

    Signing Abreu and Tanaka would not have solved our OF and left-side IF issues.

    Signing Cruz and Tanaka would have left Nava, Middy or Carp playing 1B.

    Signing Cruz and Abreu would not have solved our 4/5 rotation slot issues or our problem at 3B/SS.

    Yeah, in perfect hindsight, maybe Ben could have stayed under the luxury limit and built a team that was a top competitor this year, but looking at the 3 guys I named here, I certainly can see why Ben did not sign 2 of the 3, so I'm not going to go on and on placing a lot of blame on him.

    This next winter is a different matter. There will be a lot of money for Ben to spend, a lot of team asking about our prospects, and hopefully some young players stepping up their production going forward.

    To me, next year starts at the end of this month. If Ben lets Lester, Uehara and to a lesser extent Miller and Badenhop go to  free agency with nothing but draft picks to show for them, he's off to a bad start and will have a lot of ground to make up in signings and trades.

    We have to extend Lester or get something big for him. That is priority #1. It would take a near miracle to build a 2015 championship without Jon's name on the roster.

    All this being said, I get your point about being aggressive and more active. I'd add the term "proactive" to it as well. I do think Ben goofed by not acquiring a big bat beyond extending Papi and Napoli (or perhaps instead of Napoli). Obviously, this team needed something more than what we had day one. I will say that even if we had Cruz and Abreu, instead of Napoli, Mujica, Drew, Badenhop, Sizemore, Pierzynski, and Capuano, but everyone else still put up the numbers they have this year, we'd not be much better off, especially if you figure that the players filling in the other open 25 man roster slots would have probably been worse than what we have gotten this year from our kids and role player fill-ins.

    Is this what our 25 man roster might have looked like?

    C: Ross, 1 from: Vazquez, Lava or Butler

    1B: Abreu, Carp

    2B: Pedroia, Holt

    3B: Middy (injured), Holt

    SS: Bogey, Holt

    LF: Nava/Gomes

    CF: Vic (injured), JBJ

    RF: Cruz, Holt

    DH: Ortiz

    SP: Lester, Lackey, Peavy, Buch, Doubie (Later: Workman & de la Rosa)

    RP: Uehara, Tazawa, Breslow, Miller, Wilson?, Britton?, ???

     

    Yeah, in hind sight, it would be addition by subtraction replacing Mujica, but replacing Badenhop or expecting others on the staff to pitch more innings is not something I would have felt warm and fuzzy about.

     

    I guess what I am trying to say is that with the low production of almost every positional player this year as compared to last year, this team was doomed no matter what Ben did.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement].  Moon, it is certainly possible that Ben was told to limit the spending this off season. That would help absolve him for this mess, at least to an extent. But how can anyone reconcile that with throwing 10 mil at Drew. All I have heard on that is that he was needed to shore up the defense on the left side. Now, I am not a Drew hater like some are. But I see him for what he is. A decent ballplayer, nothing more or less. Not an impact player that can help turn things around. He is a guy that not one team in baseball thought was worth losing a draft pick.  To me, it makes no sense to pay him 10 mil for half a season. I get the feeling that it was done out of desperation and confusion as to how to salvage this season.  As I said earlier, it is not good when your only significant deals in the off season were to lose two of your key players. And, your only replacements were an aging catcher and an outfielder who had not played an inning in two years. Not a good plan. 

    [/QUOTE]

    We'll said. Luchinno controls the purse strings as well as Young Ben's decisions. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to AL34's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    We'll said. Luchinno controls the purse strings as well as Young Ben's decisions. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Not only do you not actually know this, but at the very least, you are crying that an annual top five spending team in MLB is too cheap.

     

    If Lucchino does actually control the purse strings, he is far from stingy with them.  The Sox payroll is still north of $150mill.  

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxpride34. Show redsoxpride34's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    There is no excuses for the FO not doing a better job of building this team in the offseason to ensure success this year. Ben C should absolutely be held accountable for this mess as he has not spent money wisely at all. Literally the only good acquisition he has made is koji uehara since he took over as gm. Dempster was a bust, same with drew, gomes, peavy has been so so (not worth his salary), Aj stinks, Victorino has been on the DL far too often and his bat does not hold value in RF, napoli has be decent but not the middle of the order bat the FO keeps trying to make him out to be, capuano just got released, mujica has been downright terrible, same goes for breslow this year, and lets not even get into the non-moves that are hurting this team as we speak. Ellsbury was let go (which most of us agreed with) but the fact that we did nothing to replace him was the downfall of this team. Choo would have been a great fit, and has been arguably the best leadoff hitter in baseball. Cruz would have helped in LF. Keeping napoli over signing abreu was a massive mistake and one that many of us disagreed with from the start. We had a chance to sign a 26 yr old power hitter for a very low rate (he got 12 mill per for 4 years) who could be a middle of the order bat for us for years to come, with the ability to hit 35-40 homeruns in fenway, but instead we signed a 31 or 32 with a degenerative hip issue for 16 mill per over 2 years as a stopgap at 1B. Ben also chose to pass on tanaka and darvish, both of which could have really helped this team. The bottom line is this, ben has shied away from making any big moves and has always taken the safe way out. All of his signings have been past their prime veterans on short term high money deals. Winning the ws last year was a major stroke of luck and was not in any way a product of the decision made by the FO. Even they did not think we had a chance at winning it last year. Now, on top of it all, we are on the verge of losing our best pitch (lester) because we are not willing to pay him what he is worth. Those within the industry expect him to test the market at this point as we continue to low ball him to the point where extension talks are all but over. I for one have had enough of the FO acting like we are a small market team when we have plenty of money to spend. We can’t afford to lose lester and weaken our team even more. I really hope fans stick it to the FO and not show up at the rest of the home games this year. Why should the fans pay big money to see there team play and support them when the FO won’t spend the money to put a competitive team on the field? 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from dgalehouse. Show dgalehouse's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to redsoxpride34's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    There is no excuses for the FO not doing a better job of building this team in the offseason to ensure success this year. Ben C should absolutely be held accountable for this mess as he has not spent money wisely at all. Literally the only good acquisition he has made is koji uehara since he took over as gm. Dempster was a bust, same with drew, gomes, peavy has been so so (not worth his salary), Aj stinks, Victorino has been on the DL far too often and his bat does not hold value in RF, napoli has be decent but not the middle of the order bat the FO keeps trying to make him out to be, capuano just got released, mujica has been downright terrible, same goes for breslow this year, and lets not even get into the non-moves that are hurting this team as we speak. Ellsbury was let go (which most of us agreed with) but the fact that we did nothing to replace him was the downfall of this team. Choo would have been a great fit, and has been arguably the best leadoff hitter in baseball. Cruz would have helped in LF. Keeping napoli over signing abreu was a massive mistake and one that many of us disagreed with from the start. We had a chance to sign a 26 yr old power hitter for a very low rate (he got 12 mill per for 4 years) who could be a middle of the order bat for us for years to come, with the ability to hit 35-40 homeruns in fenway, but instead we signed a 31 or 32 with a degenerative hip issue for 16 mill per over 2 years as a stopgap at 1B. Ben also chose to pass on tanaka and darvish, both of which could have really helped this team. The bottom line is this, ben has shied away from making any big moves and has always taken the safe way out. All of his signings have been past their prime veterans on short term high money deals. Winning the ws last year was a major stroke of luck and was not in any way a product of the decision made by the FO. Even they did not think we had a chance at winning it last year. Now, on top of it all, we are on the verge of losing our best pitch (lester) because we are not willing to pay him what he is worth. Those within the industry expect him to test the market at this point as we continue to low ball him to the point where extension talks are all but over. I for one have had enough of the FO acting like we are a small market team when we have plenty of money to spend. We can’t afford to lose lester and weaken our team even more. I really hope fans stick it to the FO and not show up at the rest of the home games this year. Why should the fans pay big money to see there team play and support them when the FO won’t spend the money to put a competitive team on the field? 

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]. There is a fascination with the money ball philosophy, which can be useful for small market, low budget teams. If we have one of the highest payrolls, we should expect more. This year, we are not coming close to receiving value on what we are spending. Someone has to be accountable for that. You will certainly start to see the empty seats at Fenway and the falling TV ratings before long. The offer to Lester was insulting. I would add that it is partly his fault for stating that was willing to give a home town discount. Even if you want to do that, you don't advertise it beforehand. Negotiating 101. That gave management the idea that they could low ball and take advantage of him. The business side of baseball. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from sprucepine. Show sprucepine's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    Hi,

    I don't know if this is the right place to express this opinion but since I'm new to these forums and don't have enough experience to start a new discussion I'll say what I have to say and find out if I've made the right deciscion!

    I've lived in Boston now for about 28 years and I watched the teams play from a distance, pretty regularly either on the radio or in the newspaper and I watched a number of teams with some really good players struggle but with these new owners and managers in the last decade or so things changed and the Red Sox put out three teams of very fine players who really worked well together and played with great heart and went all the way to win three World Series Championships, something that had not happened since the early days of the Boston Red Sox (1912, 1915, 1916, and 1918)!

    My thought is this: The Cteam had created a winning formula that sustained a season to win the World Series Championship! The formula is a very large part was the players, their willingness to give their all and do great things and as it turned out, each one of them were valuable to making everything work to secure the wins to go all the way and bring home that trophy to Boston.

    Why get rid of any of those players?

    Yes, some of them thought that they werte extremely valuable, worth a lot of money for their future contributions based on their most recent accomplishments but for some reason the owners and management did not see it that way and decided that they could get better players for less but a key thing happened....

    By letting certain star players go elsewhere they broke the winning formula, killing the goose that laid the golden egg and for a few years  tried their very best to recover, never quite able too until they found another winning combination that won another World Series Championship and then again allowed certain key components escape and again never quite recovered and suffered greatly, even embarassing themselves, they were so bad and throwing out a great manager and great GM!

     

    One more time, (6 years later) the Sox put together a great winning combination and in spite of all the trials and errors on that season and all the way to last game had us all on the edge of our seats, often anticipating the play that seemed to only happen when we had nearly given up, producing a third World SeriesChampionship in nearly a decade and it felt like maybe they could come back and do it again, but no again for the third time they left some key players go and again broke that formula, again losing the goose that laid that golden egg!

     

    When are these owners and management going to realize that it's the players, together and having made everything click, that is the winning formula and not some grand idea or concept the precludes the players?

     

    I dare the owners and managers to create one winning team and return the following year with all the players that one the previous year's World Series Championship!

     

    Any player asks for more money, instead of trying to beat them or toss them aside, try negotiating with them with the goal not to save money but keep them playing for the team for one or more years!

     

    Everytime the team wins a World Series Championship the value of the brand increases and brings in more money!! Imagine what would happen if it brought in two championships to two successive years! Wouldn't that be worth the extra expendatures that would would be spent on keeping the winning team intact?

     

    The Red Sox, so far have tried everything else so why not try this?

     

    It appears that the team is not coming together, this year and may not jell in time to create the winning combination to make the playoffs! The Red Sox may even squander another season or two trying to find the right pieces to put a team together that can go all the way!

     

    But if and when they do go all the way, I strongly recommend that for the first time after a World Series Championship Winning Season, they finally put the players first and really increase the chances for a repeat Championship season!

     

    Tha would be for the first time, "good decisions that dictate no trades the following season!"

     

    Right now, I can't tell who are the players to keep next year and who to trade or let go but unless they turn it around, soon, this season will be lost and next and possibly several more seasons will be spent rebuilding the team!

     

    Again, once you and your players create a winning combination to again win a World Series Championship, Boston Red Sox, field all those players, the next year, and see what happens!

     

    We've all seen what happens with these other strategies!

     

    Thank you, very much.

     

    sprucepine

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sheriff-Rojas. Show Sheriff-Rojas's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    i truly believe the difference in the standings between us and the Yanks is Elllsbury - if we re-upped him we are ahead of them, and they are us....he was a proven star who fit  in our system like a glove....Salty instead of sourpuss AJ wouldve been nice too since his contract is so trade-friendly...

     

    Ben simply believed he had all the horses for another run and he was way off...at least the kids are playing so that's a plus

     

    As always - 100% correct!

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Even if the highlighted statement is true, this means a difference between a lousy team and a mediocre one.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to sprucepine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I dare the owners and managers to create one winning team and return the following year with all the players that one the previous year's World Series Championship!

    Any player asks for more money, instead of trying to beat them or toss them aside, try negotiating with them with the goal not to save money but keep them playing for the team for one or more years! 

    Everytime the team wins a World Series Championship the value of the brand increases and brings in more money!! Imagine what would happen if it brought in two championships to two successive years! Wouldn't that be worth the extra expendatures that would would be spent on keeping the winning team intact? 

    The Red Sox, so far have tried everything else so why not try this?

    [/QUOTE]

    But they did try this, in 2008.  They didn't let anybody from the 2007 team go.  The big question marks were whether to re-sign Schilling and Lowell.  They re-signed 'em both.  Unfortunately, Curt's arm was toast and he didn't pitch an inning, and Mike tore his hip labrum and was also toast.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to sprucepine's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I dare the owners and managers to create one winning team and return the following year with all the players that one the previous year's World Series Championship!

    Any player asks for more money, instead of trying to beat them or toss them aside, try negotiating with them with the goal not to save money but keep them playing for the team for one or more years! 

    Everytime the team wins a World Series Championship the value of the brand increases and brings in more money!! Imagine what would happen if it brought in two championships to two successive years! Wouldn't that be worth the extra expendatures that would would be spent on keeping the winning team intact? 

    The Red Sox, so far have tried everything else so why not try this?

    [/QUOTE]

    But they did try this, in 2008.  They didn't let anybody from the 2007 team go.  The big question marks were whether to re-sign Schilling and Lowell.  They re-signed 'em both.  Unfortunately, Curt's arm was toast and he didn't pitch an inning, and Mike tore his hip labrum and was also toast.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Schilling was signed to a one year contract and Lowell unfortunately got hurt, but Ellsbury and Saltalamachia were much younger than those two. Big mistake on Luchinno's part, then the sell job on putting two rookie who were supposedly "major league" ready was a bad move.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to redsoxpride34's comment:



     




    There is no excuses for the FO not doing a better job of building this team in the offseason to ensure success this year. Ben C should absolutely be held accountable for this mess as he has not spent money wisely at all. Literally the only good acquisition he has made is koji uehara since he took over as gm. Dempster was a bust, same with drew, gomes, peavy has been so so (not worth his salary), Aj stinks, Victorino has been on the DL far too often and his bat does not hold value in RF, napoli has be decent but not the middle of the order bat the FO keeps trying to make him out to be, capuano just got released, mujica has been downright terrible, same goes for breslow this year, and lets not even get into the non-moves that are hurting this team as we speak. Ellsbury was let go (which most of us agreed with) but the fact that we did nothing to replace him was the downfall of this team. Choo would have been a great fit, and has been arguably the best leadoff hitter in baseball. Cruz would have helped in LF. Keeping napoli over signing abreu was a massive mistake and one that many of us disagreed with from the start. We had a chance to sign a 26 yr old power hitter for a very low rate (he got 12 mill per for 4 years) who could be a middle of the order bat for us for years to come, with the ability to hit 35-40 homeruns in fenway, but instead we signed a 31 or 32 with a degenerative hip issue for 16 mill per over 2 years as a stopgap at 1B. Ben also chose to pass on tanaka and darvish, both of which could have really helped this team. The bottom line is this, ben has shied away from making any big moves and has always taken the safe way out. All of his signings have been past their prime veterans on short term high money deals. Winning the ws last year was a major stroke of luck and was not in any way a product of the decision made by the FO. Even they did not think we had a chance at winning it last year. Now, on top of it all, we are on the verge of losing our best pitch (lester) because we are not willing to pay him what he is worth. Those within the industry expect him to test the market at this point as we continue to low ball him to the point where extension talks are all but over. I for one have had enough of the FO acting like we are a small market team when we have plenty of money to spend. We can’t afford to lose lester and weaken our team even more. I really hope fans stick it to the FO and not show up at the rest of the home games this year. Why should the fans pay big money to see there team play and support them when the FO won’t spend the money to put a competitive team on the field? 




     





    You forget Andrew "Bubble Wrap Me " Bailey, hurt immediately his first year, then again the second year. Then there was the disastrous move of moving Bard to the starting rotation because Larry Luchinno did not want to sign another starter.someone should be held accountable for this disaster this year.i did not like Victorino at all when they signed him as well. his best years were behind him and and this dopey team gave him 36 million over three years.we still have another year of him and his injuries.


     


     


    This whole thing is orchestrated by Larry "Hatchetman" Luchinno who tells Ben what to do. This whole thing has his fingerprints all over it. Ben is Larry 's coffee boy. If you recall the Dodger GM went to Luchinno in 2012 not Young Ben to make that deal. This team lucked out last year because Ortiz carried them in the playoffs, they were striking out at an all time rate against Detroit last year and the Cardinals. the fluke of last year makes up for 1975, 1978, 2003, and 2011 all frustratingly close losses.


    Now the FO is being watched by the players for how Luchinno is low balling Jon Lester. Larry acts like this is a small market team with a high market fan base. Absolutely disgraceful.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    If Lucchino is the guy who dictates every move the Red Sox make, shouldn't we worship the guy for bringing us 3 championships after all the years of none?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from AL34. Show AL34's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:


    If Lucchino is the guy who dictates every move the Red Sox make, shouldn't we worship the guy for bringing us 3 championships after all the years of none?




    Yeah right, how do you like them this year. Last years team was a fluke. Wake up and stop drinking the kool aide. Theo and Luchinno did not get along at all. Luchinno made the decision to hire Valentine in 2012, not Young Ben who is the coffee boy to Larry.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to AL34's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:[QUOTE]

    If Lucchino is the guy who dictates every move the Red Sox make, shouldn't we worship the guy for bringing us 3 championships after all the years of none?

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah right, how do you like them this year. Last years team was a fluke. Wake up and stop drinking the kool aide. Theo and Luchinno did not get along at all. Luchinno made the decision to hire Valentine in 2012, not Young Ben who is the coffee boy to Larry.

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not drinking any kool aid, man.  I just think 3 championships in 12 years, well, make it 13, is a pretty decent record. 

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    In response to Sheriff-Rojas' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Even if the highlighted statement is true, this means a difference between a lousy team and a mediocre one.

    [/QUOTE]


    Certainly not a difference worth nearly $22 mil a year.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    Moon, it is certainly possible that Ben was told to limit the spending this off season. That would help absolve him for this mess, at least to an extent. But how can anyone reconcile that with throwing 10 mil at Drew. All I have heard on that is that he was needed to shore up the defense on the left side. Now, I am not a Drew hater like some are. But I see him for what he is. A decent ballplayer, nothing more or less. Not an impact player that can help turn things around. He is a guy that not one team in baseball thought was worth losing a draft pick. To me, it makes no sense to pay him 10 mil for half a season. I get the feeling that it was done out of desperation and confusion as to how to salvage this season. As I said earlier, it is not good when the only significant deals in the off season were to lose two of your key players. And, your only replacements were an aging catcher and an outfielder who had not played an inning in two years. Not a good plan.

    I totally agree on the Drew move. It was desperate and wrong on more than one level.

    We had more needs this past winter than just replacing Ellsbury and Salty. We had to replace Drew and we needed pen help. As it turned out we needed to replace Middy and Vic as well.

    I'm pretty certain Ben was restricted by the luxury limit, or told that to go over needed prior consent and approval. I doubt the top brass would have approved going over for Cruz or Tanaka. Had we signed Abreu instead of Napoli, we could have squeezed him in without any sacrifices elsewhere. There were many here that wanted just that, but his signing by the CWS came at an awkward time last year.

    Like I have said all along, Ben is not above criticism. He has made mistakes, but to me the biggest "mistake" of this year is an under production by our positional players that no GM could have either foreseen or had the resources (given our budget restrictions) to do much about it.

    Sox4ever

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    The bottom line is this, ben has shied away from making any big moves and has always taken the safe way out.

    The Dodger trade was a huge risk deal and just about the biggest move in all of MLB in my lifetime.

     

    All of his signings have been past their prime veterans on short term high money deals.

    And, what big named free agent deserved a 7+ year deal? Yeah, in hindsight we can say Abreu or maybe Tanaka and Choo, but wait until year 5, 6 or 7.

    Most FAs are past prime or on their last leg of it.

    Winning the ws last year was a major stroke of luck and was not in any way a product of the decision made by the FO.

    ..and losing this year is mostly a stroke of bad luck.

     

    Look, certainly Ben is responsible for part of the results this year. I was against the Peavy deal, but we needed a SP and Peavy came relatively cheap based on his most recent 2 years of production at the time of the deal. (Iggy was not going to be our starting SS. I was a huge Iggy supporter, and it was Ben's choice to make.) I was against the Dempster, Vic, and Drew signings last year. I like Abreu this past fall, but understood the Napoli decision and the timing involved with the choice made. The Papi extension was a no brainer. After those two contracts were added to the books, not much was left over.

    $10.1M Drew

    $8.3M AJ P

    $4.8M Mujica

    $2.1M Badenhop

    $2M Capuano

    In theory, we could have signed Tanaka and Cruz with this 2015 money. I guess a brilliant GM would have done that, but like I have said, where would the posters here be in year 6 to 7 of their deals? Who would be catching or playing 3B this year? Who would have taken Vic's place? Who would be doing better than Badenhop in our pen.

    Of course Ben is not above criticism, but leaving out the Dodger trade, which just happens to be the best trade the Sox have made in 6+ decades and saying Ben is afraid to make "big moves" or be aggressive is just not right. He took some huge risks. It worked last year with some good luck, but did not work this year with a lot of bad luck.

     

     

    Sox4ever

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from moonslav59. Show moonslav59's posts

    Re: Bad decisions this year dictate trade next year

    But they did try this, in 2008. They didn't let anybody from the 2007 team go. The big question marks were whether to re-sign Schilling and Lowell. They re-signed 'em both. Unfortunately, Curt's arm was toast and he didn't pitch an inning, and Mike tore his hip labrum and was also toast.

    ...and look at the difference between the 2004 and 2007 rosters: huge differences!

     

    Sox4ever

     
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