Bard and his excuses, concerning?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from scauma09. Show scauma09's posts

    Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    http://m.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2012/12/29/rediscovering-daniel-bard-reliever-ready-offe

     

    Bards continues to blame the bulk of his struggles on a lack of confidence by his coaches and a perceived inconsistency about his role. This despite the sox repeatedly saying he would be a starter. And if memory serves me correct he wasn't that great in spring training, and there was legit debate about whether he should start, before bailey went down. Personally I think Bard bounces back and again is an effective middle inning reliever, but it doesn't seem as if he has the ba...gumption to be a dominant player, in any important role. Love them or hate them, elite athletes usually have extreme self confidence and rarely ever make excuses. But the next question is, why do so many think he's completely lost it?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from raider3524. Show raider3524's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    Daniel Bard - S - Red Sox

    Daniel Bard told WEEI's Rob Bradford that a lower back injury affected his drop in velocity last season.

    "It had to have something to do with it, in my mind," Bard said. "The high inning workload early in the season and in spring training kind of took a toll...I just kind of pitched through it. But it was an issue between starts. I've had lower back stiffness throughout my whole career, this was just a little bit more." Coming off a disastrous 2012, Bard will be competing for a bullpen spot in spring training. He posted a career-low 6.22 ERA in 17 appearances (10 starts) with the Red Sox last season.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bill-806. Show Bill-806's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

       Bard should/will be a throw in when the "BLOCKBUSTER" made SOOOOON !!!

     
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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    Bards continues to blame the bulk of his struggles on a lack of confidence by his coaches and a perceived inconsistency about his role. This despite the sox repeatedly saying he would be a starter. And if memory serves me correct he wasn't that great in spring training, and there was legit debate about whether he should start, before bailey went down. Personally I think Bard bounces back and again is an effective middle inning reliever, but it doesn't seem as if he has the ba...gumption to be a dominant player, in any important role. Love them or hate them, elite athletes usually have extreme self confidence and rarely ever make excuses. But the next question is, why do so many think he's completely lost it?

    [/QUOTE]

    Who cares what "so many" think?  Fans like you, me, and everyone else here?  What do we know?  What we've seen on television?  Or from watching from 100s of feet away at the park a couple of times when he pitched? What we read in the increasingly rubbish Globe and totally rubbish Herald?  What we read in B-R or Fangraphs?

    After 3 pretty good seasons Bard was terrible in 2012.  What are the possible reasons?:

    1. Physical health
    2. Mechanics
    3. Confidence/role

    I seriously doubt anyone here, for example, could know much about 1 & 3 unless they had intimate knowledge of Bard.  Re number 2, without doubt, there will be people here on both sides of every mechanical issue.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    Your hypothesis: Bards continues to blame the bulk of his struggles on a lack of confidence by his coaches and a perceived inconsistency about his role.

     

    Part of your argument:  And if memory serves me correct he wasn't that great in spring training, and there was legit debate about whether he should start, before bailey went down.

     

    Your argument supports the idea that Bard probably did struggle with his confidence as those around him debated his ability and fusefulness as a starter. 

    Still, nothing I read in the short article reads like Bard blamed anyone but himself (his lack of the proper physical preparation) and physical issues for his poor performance.

    So, no.  I am not troubled by his excuses.  At least not in the way you implied I should be.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from yankenstein3. Show yankenstein3's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    I would be more worried about his control than excuses.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    I'm going with velocity: http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=7115&position=P&pitch=FA

    If something took his velocity away, and that something is correctable, that's fantastic news.  A bullpen featuring Hanrahan, Bailey, Uehara, Tazawa, Morales, Aceves, Miller and a pre-2012 Daniel Bard takes a lot of pressure off the rotation.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    Actually, this quote from Bard is troublesome.

    "Just trying to change roles, and doing that for a little while, and never getting a real affirmative that was my job to keep," he said when contemplating where his path started to detour. "That whole time I was starting really felt like it was a tryout even though it was 10 or 11 starts, with every single one getting questions from coaches. 'How did you feel?' 'Are you comfortable?' 'Are you sure you don't want to go back to the bullpen?' And questions from the media … Just constantly, constantly answering questions about the conversion to starting. It was never really healthy for me. I was never able to just settle into the role and trust my stuff and let it play. All the people were asking questions. I was wondering if I was not doing something right. The results were mixed, some good, some bad. But it felt like the bad got a lot more focused on than the good starts I had. I think it kind of snowballed on me.

    It does seem he's placing blame on others and making excuses. Coaches asking him how's he feeling, etc., and the media asking about the conversion to a starter -- that's all normal stuff that should be expected. If he couldn't handle that, no wonder the Sox weren't keen on making him the closer and no wonder he struggled.

    There's no way of knowing for sure, but I think he would have blown up like he did even if the Sox made him the closer. He melted down late in 2011 when he still was in his comfortable set-up role.

     

     

     

     

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from RedSoxKimmi. Show RedSoxKimmi's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    "It does seem he's placing blame on others and making excuses. Coaches asking him how's he feeling, etc., and the media asking about the conversion to a starter -- that's all normal stuff that should be expected. If he couldn't handle that, no wonder the Sox weren't keen on making him the closer and no wonder he struggled.

    There's no way of knowing for sure, but I think he would have blown up like he did even if the Sox made him the closer. He melted down late in 2011 when he still was in his comfortable set-up role."

    IMO, Bard does not have the mental toughness and short memory that someone like Papelbon has. That's not to say that he couldn't succeed in a starting or closing role, but all of the questions and uncertainty surrounding his attempted conversion to a SP certainly seems to have affected him more than it would affect someone like Paps.

    That said, I think it's important for any player to feel like his coaches and, in particular, his manager have his back and are 100% supportive of whatever role that player is assigned. Just speculation, but I get the feeling that Valentine never really gave Bard his vote of confidence as a starter, or at the very least, he and his coaching staff were not communicating with Bard very well.

    That's not to say it was the coach's fault, and I don't think Bard should be making excuses regardless. I just don't think his conversion to SP was handled very well. In a perfect world, he would have had time to in AAA to acclimate himself to that role.

    Also, as you mentioned, he struggled at the end of 2011. I'm not convinced that he would have been lights out had he stayed in the pen, even in his familiar set up role.

    Anyway, I'm hopeful that he will be able to regain his form.

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'm going with velocity: http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=7115&position=P&pitch=FA

    If something took his velocity away, and that something is correctable, that's fantastic news.  A bullpen featuring Hanrahan, Bailey, Uehara, Tazawa, Morales, Aceves, Miller and a pre-2012 Daniel Bard takes a lot of pressure off the rotation.

    [/QUOTE]


    Slo, I almost posted the same about velocity being a/the leading indicator in such a case i.e. a very independent statistic. But as you posted it's not that simple.  What could cause such a decline?  Age?  Not for Bard (or Lester), surely.  Wear?  Could be for either, I wouldn't know.  Injury?  Again, could be, I have no evidence.  Mechanics?  Confidence?  To give up on Bard or sell low on Lester (neither of which you are advocating) is ridiculous.

    Their potential upside to us is worth far more than what we'd get in Filene's Basement (RIP) today.

     

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    Bard was getting hit in 2011 towards the end of the year even when throwing in the mid-high 90s....he must have a straight fastball as they say...his velocity last year was very troubling....not a good sign i think...perfect trade bait with Salty to get someone decent

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    Also worth noting that Bard was 5th in relief innings in both 2010 and 2011.  1.93 ERA in 2010, 2.10 ERA though 5 Sep 2011.  All in fairly high-stress innings, too.

    Not claiming he's therefore battle-hardened, nor that he's physically busted, but that he's worth trying to rehab rather than jettison or demonise a.k.a. Softy-fy.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from SonicsMonksLyresVicars. Show SonicsMonksLyresVicars's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    In response to georom4's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Bard was getting hit in 2011 towards the end of the year even when throwing in the mid-high 90s....he must have a straight fastball as they say...his velocity last year was very troubling....not a good sign i think...perfect trade bait with Salty to get someone decent

    [/QUOTE]


    Don't agree, Geo.  After 2 long seasons of high-stress inning (as I just posted) Bard, along with most Sox pitchers, had a poor September 2011.  Then, for whatever reason(s), he had a very poor 2012.

    1. If you were another team, would you think "Aha, this might a good opportunity to get Bard's arm and career record cheaply after his terrible 2012 season"?
    2. Or would you think "Jeez, we don't have enough to offer to get this guy, let's overpay."

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from slomag. Show slomag's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    In response to SonicsMonksLyresVicars' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to slomag's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I'm going with velocity: http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=7115&position=P&pitch=FA

    If something took his velocity away, and that something is correctable, that's fantastic news.  A bullpen featuring Hanrahan, Bailey, Uehara, Tazawa, Morales, Aceves, Miller and a pre-2012 Daniel Bard takes a lot of pressure off the rotation.

    [/QUOTE]


    Slo, I almost posted the same about velocity being a/the leading indicator in such a case i.e. a very independent statistic. But as you posted it's not that simple.  What could cause such a decline?  Age?  Not for Bard (or Lester), surely.  Wear?  Could be for either, I wouldn't know.  Injury?  Again, could be, I have no evidence.  Mechanics?  Confidence?  To give up on Bard or sell low on Lester (neither of which you are advocating) is ridiculous.

    Their potential upside to us is worth far more than what we'd get in Filene's Basement (RIP) today.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Bard blames back stiffness.  He may just be reaching for excuses, but one interesting thing about Bard's velocity is that it wasn't just his fastball - his slider dropped 5 mph as well, which I imagine made it much easier to pick up the late break.

    Lester's velocity was actually pretty consistent with 2011: http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfxo.aspx?playerid=4930&position=P&pitch=FA

    He's reportedly in great shape - I feel pretty good about Lester going into 2013.  And I feel great about the bullpen.  If we get some nice years out of guys like Lackey and Dempster, I think we have a shot.

     

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    In response to EdithBRTN's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to royf19's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Actually, this quote from Bard is troublesome.

    "Just trying to change roles, and doing that for a little while, and never getting a real affirmative that was my job to keep," he said when contemplating where his path started to detour. "That whole time I was starting really felt like it was a tryout even though it was 10 or 11 starts, with every single one getting questions from coaches. 'How did you feel?' 'Are you comfortable?' 'Are you sure you don't want to go back to the bullpen?' And questions from the media … Just constantly, constantly answering questions about the conversion to starting. It was never really healthy for me. I was never able to just settle into the role and trust my stuff and let it play. All the people were asking questions. I was wondering if I was not doing something right. The results were mixed, some good, some bad. But it felt like the bad got a lot more focused on than the good starts I had. I think it kind of snowballed on me.

    It does seem he's placing blame on others and making excuses. Coaches asking him how's he feeling, etc., and the media asking about the conversion to a starter -- that's all normal stuff that should be expected. If he couldn't handle that, no wonder the Sox weren't keen on making him the closer and no wonder he struggled.

    There's no way of knowing for sure, but I think he would have blown up like he did even if the Sox made him the closer. He melted down late in 2011 when he still was in his comfortable set-up role.

     

     

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]
    So Bard finally admits now that he was pitching injured with back pain which reduced his velocity and you construe his above comments as his being upset about coaches who asked him how he felt and was he comfortable in his role.  Isn't the culprit here Bard who refused to disclose his pain and injury to all of those who were asking legitimate questions? Aren't coaches and higher staff supposed to ask questions about inconsistent performance and " How are you feeling"? Sorry but IMO Bard was not forthcoming and was hiding his problem - the problem was his physical condition.

    [/QUOTE]
    RIGHT ON...

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Joebreidey. Show Joebreidey's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    I've no faith in Bard.  My guess is that he'd have always had problems.

    Having said that, he pitched under probably the worst manager in history.  I have very little faith in him, but it is not unreasonable to think he could be right.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    I never understood making Bard a starter - that was the first problem.

    Then they made Aceves a closer - another strange decision.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from SinceYaz. Show SinceYaz's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    In response to scauma09's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    http://m.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2012/12/29/rediscovering-daniel-bard-reliever-ready-offe

     

    Bards continues to blame the bulk of his struggles on a lack of confidence by his coaches and a perceived inconsistency about his role. This despite the sox repeatedly saying he would be a starter. And if memory serves me correct he wasn't that great in spring training, and there was legit debate about whether he should start, before bailey went down. Personally I think Bard bounces back and again is an effective middle inning reliever, but it doesn't seem as if he has the ba...gumption to be a dominant player, in any important role. Love them or hate them, elite athletes usually have extreme self confidence and rarely ever make excuses. But the next question is, why do so many think he's completely lost it?

    [/QUOTE]


    Apparently Bard felt the same kind of lack of support many of the rest of the team felt under BV,  Heck, even BV fekt he was being secon d guessed - by his coaches - and fired the pitching coach.  Last year'siggest mistake - in hindsight for me - was hiring BV.  He came in to shake things up ....boy, did he ever!  No one seemed to enjohy any confidence with him around.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    In response to pinstripezac's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to EdithBRTN's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Wow, Georom agreed with me on something. BUMP.

    [/QUOTE]

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    no idea if it was his back or not

    but if he thinks so

    it should make it easier for him to

    forget last yr & move forward




    [/QUOTE]

    Stop making sense...it'll ruin your reputation!

    Given the up and down nature of his season and the body of work that he had before. We can now conclude that having him start last year was in hindsight a mistake. Now it's on him to turn the page, come to camp ready to compete and prove to himself and his detractors that 2012 was the anomoly. If he can regain his form, velocity and command his off speed stuff givn the current depth of our bullpen adding the 2010-2011 version of Bard to the corps will give us a pretty stout end game...What I find humorous is that far too many dismiss the drive of the athlete to compete and if Bard still has fire in his belly. There's no reason given good health that he can't overcome what was an unmitigated disaster...Haven't seen such a drop since, well the guy the Yanks tried the very same thing with Joba...Who also hasn't been the same since...hmmmm

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from MichFan. Show MichFan's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    Everyone should get a clean start this year.  New mgrs and coaches and they got rid of some of the trash..

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from parhunter55. Show parhunter55's posts

    Re: Bard and his excuses, concerning?

    In response to SinceYaz's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to scauma09's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    http://m.weei.com/sports/boston/baseball/red-sox/rob-bradford/2012/12/29/rediscovering-daniel-bard-reliever-ready-offe

     

    Bards continues to blame the bulk of his struggles on a lack of confidence by his coaches and a perceived inconsistency about his role. This despite the sox repeatedly saying he would be a starter. And if memory serves me correct he wasn't that great in spring training, and there was legit debate about whether he should start, before bailey went down. Personally I think Bard bounces back and again is an effective middle inning reliever, but it doesn't seem as if he has the ba...gumption to be a dominant player, in any important role. Love them or hate them, elite athletes usually have extreme self confidence and rarely ever make excuses. But the next question is, why do so many think he's completely lost it?

    [/QUOTE]


    Apparently Bard felt the same kind of lack of support many of the rest of the team felt under BV,  Heck, even BV fekt he was being secon d guessed - by his coaches - and fired the pitching coach.  Last year'siggest mistake - in hindsight for me - was hiring BV.  He came in to shake things up ....boy, did he ever!  No one seemed to enjohy any confidence with him around.

    [/QUOTE]


    Could not agree more.

     
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