Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    When will the Red Sox realize Bard does not have starting pitching stuff. He has no command & walks way too many hitters every game. Walks have come back to haunt him in every game he has started so far this season. IMO, he belongs back in the bullpen. The question is will it happen or will they continue in their stubborn ways & watch Bard struggle all season long as a starter. I can't be the only one who feels this way !!
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mchampion. Show Mchampion's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]When will the Red Sox realize Bard does not have starting pitching stuff. He has no command & walks way too many hitters every game. Walks have come back to haunt him in every game he has started so far this season. IMO, he belongs back in the bullpen. The question is will it happen or will they continue in their stubborn ways & watch Bard struggle all season long as a starter. I can't be the only one who feels this way !!
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan[/QUOTE]

    I agree and have said that from the start of the season.  But management had their agenda.  So Bard is a starter.  So lets keep Bard as an average starter instead of a great reliever, which he has proven by the way, and see what happens.   We probably could have a few more wins a this point is Bard was in the pen but who am I to say.  It could be Bens job though....
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]When will the Red Sox realize Bard does not have starting pitching stuff. He has no command & walks way too many hitters every game. Walks have come back to haunt him in every game he has started so far this season. IMO, he belongs back in the bullpen. The question is will it happen or will they continue in their stubborn ways & watch Bard struggle all season long as a starter. I can't be the only one who feels this way !!
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan[/QUOTE]

    Going into tonight, Bard has had 6 career starts.  In two of them, he walked 1 batter, one start he had 2 walks, two other starts he walked 4 and gave up only one run in one of those and the other start he walked 7, but only gave up one run in 6 and 2/3 innings during that start. I don't think walks have haunted him in "every game" he has started, but I can understand how facts can be pesky.  

    Bottom line, he is a young pitcher who has pitched about as well as can be expected so far this season.  
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from LloydDobler. Show LloydDobler's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    He's no doorknob either.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from jpBsSoxFan. Show jpBsSoxFan's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Going into tonight, Bard has had 6 career starts.  In two of them, he walked 1 batter, one start he had 2 walks, two other starts he walked 4 and gave up only one run in one of those and the other start he walked 7, but only gave up one run in 6 and 2/3 innings during that start. I don't think walks have haunted him in "every game" he has started, but I can understand how facts can be pesky.   Bottom line, he is a young pitcher who has pitched about as well as can be expected so far this season.  
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]
    I just think it would be better to get 1 or 2 effective innings out of Bard from the pen rather than him labour & struggle through 5 or 6 innings with a very high pitch count due to the lack of command.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    If he's struggling with command, the last thing you want is for him to come out of the bullpen. Starters sometimes can withstand walks better than a reliever in one inning.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    And if you look at it, most of the walks -- three or four of the five walks he had -- came in the first inning. So obviously he settled down.

    He might simply need more time in the bullpen warming up to get his mechanics down.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : I just think it would be better to get 1 or 2 effective innings out of Bard from the pen rather than him labour & struggle through 5 or 6 innings with a very high pitch count due to the lack of command.
    Posted by jpBsSoxFan[/QUOTE]

    I can appreciate why people wanted him to remain a set-up guy, and at this point, it's where he has the most value, but it's not something he wants to do.  He's earned the opportunity to get a chance to be a starter and the results haven't been that bad.  He's going to struggle at times as all young starters do, but he's kept them in pretty much all of the games he's started.  He has a chance to be a top of the rotation guy as he continues to develop, so why not give him a chance?   He's certainly pitched well enough so far to stay in the rotation. 
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from maxbialystock. Show maxbialystock's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    Disastrous first inning, which exactly what would happen coming from the bullpen, only maybe with a lead. then five decent innings, which is what a starter and not a reliever does. Besides, the bullpen has been very good without him. Pretty ignorant OP.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from georom4. Show georom4's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    he needs to stop throwing the off speed stuff and use his heater more...
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from MadMc44. Show MadMc44's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    IMO if Bard wants to be a starter and thinks he has starter stuff perhaps BenC can find a team that believes he's a starter. I share most of the opinions in this thread Bard is a reliever and will help the Sox more as a reliever.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]he needs to stop throwing the off speed stuff and use his heater more...
    Posted by georom4[/QUOTE]

    He topped out around 92 tonight...Not expecting 98 like Verlander, who's a freak, but you have to expect around 95...strange
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]IMO if Bard wants to be a starter and thinks he has starter stuff perhaps BenC can find a team that believes he's a starter. I share most of the opinions in this thread Bard is a reliever and will help the Sox more as a reliever.
    Posted by MadMc44[/QUOTE]

    You don't trade pitchers with an arm like Bard's.  He's pitched about as well as can be expected for a guy with 7 career starts under his belt above A ball.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    He belongs in bullpen. He can help the team more there. They have guys that can give them five or six mediocre innings. It doesn't matter what Bard wants. He is a player. He should do what he is told. Sox should do what is best for team to win.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from splendidsplinterteddyballgame. Show splendidsplinterteddyballgame's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    He belongs in bullpen. He can help the team more there. They have guys that can give them five or six mediocre innings. It doesn't matter what Bard wants. He is a player. He should do what he is told. Sox should do what is best for team to win.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Going into tonight, Bard has had 6 career starts.  In two of them, he walked 1 batter, one start he had 2 walks, two other starts he walked 4 and gave up only one run in one of those and the other start he walked 7, but only gave up one run in 6 and 2/3 innings during that start. I don't think walks have haunted him in "every game" he has started, but I can understand how facts can be pesky.   Bottom line, he is a young pitcher who has pitched about as well as can be expected so far this season.  
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]

    None of which changes the fact that he spent many years in the Sox bullpen averaging well over 4BB/9 without running up pitch counts and piling on IP.

    I never thought moving Bard to closer was a good idea, because of the walk issue.  Let alone starter...
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : You don't trade pitchers with an arm like Bard's.  He's pitched about as well as can be expected for a guy with 7 career starts under his belt above A ball.
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]

    Teams do it all the time.  Neftali Feliz, for example (who also should not be a starter.)  I think you might be overstating Bard's ability as a pitcher.

    The recent trend in moving closers / best RP to the rotation isn't built on anything more than economics.  Feliz is a great example.  He repalces Wilson in the rotation, since Wilson cost a boatload of cash - about $75mill.  The Rangers saved that money and gave a paltry (by comparison) $15 mill to Joe Nathan to replace Feliz.        

    Why not leave Feliz and sign a starter?  $$$$.  The money spent on Jo Nathan is basically the same deal Jason Marquis got from the Nationals.  $15mill just doesn't get good SP anymore.

    The Red Sox are just following suit with the economic game here. This isn't about any special talent Bard has, or about the team granting him his wish. It's a cash move, pure and simple.

    The only reason I am fine with it is at the very least, it prevents the Sox from going after medicore filler pitchers for the rotation at premium contract prices... 
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from royf19. Show royf19's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]He belongs in bullpen. He can help the team more there. They have guys that can give them five or six mediocre innings. Posted by splendidsplinterteddyballgame[/QUOTE]

    Do they really?

    In the long run, if Bard can be no more than a mediocre starter, he might be better in the bullpen. But you don't just pull the plug on him after six starts.

    He's shown glimpses of being an excellent starter so he deserves more of a chance. And, if the Sox got from the No. 4 and No. 5 spots last year what Bard and Doubrant have given this year, the playoffs would have been a given.

    With the way the rotation has gone recently, I wouldn't mess with it. I'd give it more time to jell.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : None of which changes the fact that he spent many years in the Sox bullpen averaging well over 4BB/9 without running up pitch counts and piling on IP. I never thought moving Bard to closer was a good idea, because of the walk issue.  Let alone starter...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    I don't think he has the makeup to be a closer and it's not something he wants to do anyway, so that's not an option.  It's a little early in the process to determine whether or not he'll be an effective Major League starter.  He can certainly develop better command as he continues to learn and he's had some starts where he's showed good command.  Again, he asked for an opportunity to start, which he deserved, and he's pitched well enough so far to keep his spot in the rotation.  It's a non-issue at this point... 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : I don't think he has the makeup to be a closer and it's not something he wants to do anyway, so that's not an option.  It's a little early in the process to determine whether or not he'll be an effective Major League starter.  He can certainly develop better command as he continues to learn and he's had some starts where he's showed good command.  Again, he asked for an opportunity to start, which he deserved, and he's pitched well enough so far to keep his spot in the rotation.  It's a non-issue at this point... 
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]

    Whie it is a non-issue, I don't think he deserves nor do I think it matters what he wants.  Thee are plenty of guys in the organization who want starting spots.  Heck, there are plenty in the bullpen.  None of them should get them simply because they want them. 

    This move wasn't made because Bard wants it or because he deserves it, certainly anymore than Chris Sale or Feliz or Ross Detwiler or Lucas Harrell or Lance Lynn or any of the other relievers-turned-starters deserved it. This is simply the new moneyball trend - save cash by converting your relievers to starters. Relievers cost less to replace.

    I don't like him as a closer because he simply walks too many people.  Baserunners are the death of closers...
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Teams do it all the time.  Neftali Feliz, for example (who also should not be a starter.)  I think you might be overstating Bard's ability as a pitcher. The recent trend in moving closers / best RP to the rotation isn't built on anything more than economics.  Feliz is a great example.  He repalces Wilson in the rotation, since Wilson cost a boatload of cash - about $75mill.  The Rangers saved that money and gave a paltry (by comparison) $15 mill to Joe Nathan to replace Feliz.         Why not leave Feliz and sign a starter?  $$$$.  The money spent on Jo Nathan is basically the same deal Jason Marquis got from the Nationals.  $15mill just doesn't get good SP anymore. The Red Sox are just following suit with the economic game here. This isn't about any special talent Bard has, or about the team granting him his wish. It's a cash move, pure and simple. The only reason I am fine with it is at the very least, it prevents the Sox from going after medicore filler pitchers for the rotation at premium contract prices... 
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    Really?!  What teams with the economic resources like the Sox have, trade young Major League pitchers under team control with stuff like Bard's? I would actually say it's very rare these days. Teams are locking up their young talented pitchers more and more, which is why Cliff Lee is the only #1 type starter to hit the free agent market over the last few years.   

    Unless a team is in full rebuild mode and looking for 3 or 4 top prospects, these type of pitchers arent going anywhere.  Feliz is another guy who asked for a shot to pitch in the rotation and he deserved it.  One of the reasons these guys want an opportunity to start is that is where the $ is, as you mentioned, so you can't blame them for wanting a shot.  Closers come and go in this league all the time, and it's obviously a heck of a lot cheaper to develop one in house or sign a guy like Nathan for a hell of a lot less money, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't trade a guy with Bard's stuff when you're a team with a contending nucleus, and you certainly don't give up on him after 7 career starts...
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Whie it is a non-issue, I don't think he deserves nor do I think it matters what he wants.  Thee are plenty of guys in the organization who want starting spots.  Heck, there are plenty in the bullpen.  None of them should get them simply because they want them.  This move wasn't made because Bard wants it or because he deserves it, certainly anymore than Chris Sale or Feliz or Ross Detwiler or Lucas Harrell or Lance Lynn or any of the other relievers-turned-starters deserved it. This is simply the new moneyball trend - save cash by converting your relievers to starters. Relievers cost less to replace. I don't like him as a closer because he simply walks too many people.  Baserunners are the death of closers...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    I agree that every pitcher in the organization who wants to start doesn't deserve that opportunity, but Bard has certainly pitched well enough for the Sox to "earn" that opportunity.  I agree that it is cost conscious to convert your own guys when free agent contracts for starting pitchers are frequent busts, and it's more of a recent trend, but if Bard had told the Sox that he wanted to remain in the bullpen, there was no way they would have tried him as a starter.  It's not just an organizational wide dictatorship, these guys have a say in their future, and rightfully so... 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from notin. Show notin's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Really?!  What teams with the economic resources like the Sox have, trade young Major League pitchers under team control with stuff like Bard's? I would actually say it's very rare these days. Teams are locking up their young talented pitchers more and more, which is why Cliff Lee is the only #1 type starter to hit the free agent market over the last few years.    Unless a team is in full rebuild mode and looking for 3 or 4 top prospects, these type of pitchers arent going anywhere.  Feliz is another guy who asked for a shot to pitch in the rotation and he deserved it.  One of the reasons these guys want an opportunity to start is that is where the $ is, as you mentioned, so you can't blame them for wanting a shot.  Closers come and go in this league all the time, and it's obviously a heck of a lot cheaper to develop one in house or sign a guy like Nathan for a hell of a lot less money, but that doesn't change the fact that you don't trade a guy with Bard's stuff when you're a team with a contending nucleus, and you certainly don't give up on him after 7 career starts...
    Posted by jasko2248[/QUOTE]

    Again, you over value Bard. Whether or not #1 SP's hit the free agent market and teams lock up set up men are completely different.     

    Bard is not the elite pitcher you are trying to paint him to be.  To support your argument by citing how many #1 starters have reached free agency is almost laughable.

    Bard's career as a reliver (2.88ERA, 1.056WHIP, 9.5BB/9, 3.5BB/9) is nearly identical to that of Rafael Soriano at the same age (2.89ERA, 1.094WHIP, 9.3K/9, 2.8BB/9) back when Soriano was with Seattle, before Atlanta, TB, and NY. He did the exact same role Bard did in Boston, and did it just as wel. guess how he left Seattle? Trade.

    I don't get what Cliff Lee has to do with Daniel Bard at all...
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    All I know is 25 BB in 42 inn pitched isn't gonna cut it. That blows whether he starts or not.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from jasko2248. Show jasko2248's posts

    Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!

    In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!!:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Bard Is Not A Starting Pitcher!! : Again, you over value Bard. Whether or not #1 SP's hit the free agent market and teams lock up set up men are completely different.      Bard is not the elite pitcher you are trying to paint him to be.  To support your argument by citing how many #1 starters have reached free agency is almost laughable. Bard's career as a reliver (2.88ERA, 1.056WHIP, 9.5BB/9, 3.5BB/9) is nearly identical to that of Rafael Soriano at the same age (2.89ERA, 1.094WHIP, 9.3K/9, 2.8BB/9) back when Soriano was with Seattle, before Atlanta, TB, and NY. He did the exact same role Bard did in Boston, and did it just as wel. guess how he left Seattle? Trade. I don't get what Cliff Lee has to do with Daniel Bard at all...
    Posted by notin[/QUOTE]

    I never said Bard was an elite pitcher at this point, but he certainly has the potential to be. Soriano had a reputation as a "cement head" for a while and he wasn't a starting pitcher, like Bard is now.  I don't get the comparison.  My point was that contending teams don't trade young starting pitchers with top of the rotation stuff, as more and more teams are realizing how important it is to develop young pitching and hang onto that pitching. The point with Lee is that fewer and fewer top of the rotation guys are hitting the market these days, so it's even more important to develop your ownp itching, which is why, again, you don't trade a guy like Bard...
     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share